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  1. #21

    Re: thoughts on the holy 51 pointer...?

    Personally I've seen my guardian spirit sacrifice not proccing, sucks when you're relying on it >.<
    Donolgann, the Astral Walker <WHATEVER WERE AWESOME>
    Magtheridon-US

  2. #22
    I am Murloc! Fenixdown's Avatar
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    Re: thoughts on the holy 51 pointer...?

    Quote Originally Posted by destro
    I'm definitely also witnessing regen issues with holy. I'm having to drink quite a bit during heroics. My mp5 while casting is about 235 unbuffed. I think the problem maybe partially alleviated by raising holy concentration's chance to proc. With holy priests generally having such low crit, we aren't in holy concentration enough with the reductions in mana regen and high cost of spells (~1k per gheal).

    I've been hearing quite a bit on the forums about how discipline is more mana efficient so I'm probably going to try discipline for raiding when I can expect another healer to help out. Can you post your disc spec meowmeow? I'm thinking of this spec:
    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?prie...h=000000000000

    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?prie...h=000000000000

    This is the disc build I am using. If you are raiding, you don't need Silent Resolve unless you're just in a horrible guild imo. I've certainly had few threat issues in heroics and none at all in Naxx.

    As for the glyph setup, you will likely want Flash Heal, Dispel Magic, and Power Word: Shield as your majors. The minors for priests aren't extremely important one way or the other (I use Levitate, Fading, and Shadowfiend).

  3. #23

    Re: thoughts on the holy 51 pointer...?

    I agree that silent resolve is much less useful in raids, but in smaller groups like heroics I find it helps a lot.

    My mana regen while not casting is ~560.

    I think serendipity is a must to max out, as our gheal will overheal most of the time.
    Test of faith only kicks in at <=50% health, so the crit it provides is too situational to make up for the low proc rate of holy concentration. I doubt they'll make holy concentration a guaranteed proc like inspiration though, even if that is what it takes to fix our mana regen issues.

    I think that mana regen issues will be reduced somewhat as people get better geared. Right now doing heroics in high 70 blues is causing people to take more dmg than if everyone was naxx geared, so I see this issue quieting down in a few months even if they do nothing and other classes are more mana efficient.

  4. #24

    Re: thoughts on the holy 51 pointer...?

    Quote Originally Posted by destro
    I'm definitely also witnessing regen issues with holy. I'm having to drink quite a bit during heroics. My mp5 while casting is about 235 unbuffed. I think the problem maybe partially alleviated by raising holy concentration's chance to proc. With holy priests generally having such low crit, we aren't in holy concentration enough with the reductions in mana regen and high cost of spells (~1k per gheal).

    I've been hearing quite a bit on the forums about how discipline is more mana efficient so I'm probably going to try discipline for raiding when I can expect another healer to help out. Can you post your disc spec meowmeow? I'm thinking of this spec:
    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?priest=053200213050510250102523125120505102000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000& glyph=130205050306


    i've been trying several specs some for "world pvp" and some for MT healing, some for doing both pve and pvp since the priest is now more of an alt char for me and not a main (since holy tree wasn't worked at by developers although the call of some important priests in our comunity, priests that don't come here for a good reason, i rerolled druid though leveled my priest and my druid. i play mainly as resto druid, but also have alot of game time on my priest - can't help it love the class wish it could be fixed).

    the spec i went to 10m nax to prove penance isn't needed for pve healing:
    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?prie...h=130205050306
    i must say: this spec is not perfect, yet i was capable of healing MT alone with it in nax10m. its a pure pve raiding spec for MT healing. as you see you have SoR if you die, you have additional spell power from spirit, you still have ageis and grace. this was just so i could fill in the suggestion "penance is not a must". didn't have any mana problems, my mana was even better then other healers, healing was abit low - but not all healers provide damage reduction and sheild to the target they heal. i don't recomned specing this way since it was just me proving penance doesn't make discipline valiable, its rapture.
    the glyphs i used were: flash heal, sheild and prayer of healing, for the majors. i didn't need a "oh shit" button like gaurdian spirit simpley cause tank didn't get under 60% HP. (2 healer setup, me MT healing resto druid raid).
    an additional spec i played along as discipline which was more of a pve spec also:
    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?prie...h=000000000000
    you can easly drop points in holy for more stuff in discipline tree. i found for the pve as a healer silent resolve is not needed, same with healing focus, i found no difference in pushback on healing spells in a raid or a heroic. this discipline is close to the "normal" discipline spec. talents i think should be considered if you feel like less points in holy: aspiration and renewed hope. this will be a priest that will mainly spam sheild. in this spec my sheild absord 5.3k damage, return a nice amount of mana ofc (2100 spell power on priest, 22k mana pool as discipline). i think this is more or less the same "main" talents and then its all up to personal prefrences.
    i don't take silent resolve, i bothered checking it doesn't make a difference as a healer, if you insist of spamhealing on pull and say "its needed or tank will die", fade before you do it. i prefer geting more spell power on my inner fire. at the same time i'm becoming anoyed with buffing it every 10 mins, i mean realy, pve wise middle of encounter how anoying can that be? give a 30 min armor?
    i take healing focus for pvp and not for pve, i found no difference with it and without it.
    focused power/renewed hope/aspiration - this is as you want, i see focused power with more spell power i prefer that since my sheild will asord more, found renewed hope abit of weird for me, though i do feel comfturable taking it over holy points (like improved healing which a discipline can easly drop). aspiration is nice, but not needed for pve. i generally dislike talents that reduce CD's, and prefer talents that "buff" my char.
    my pvp spec which i am speced atm is for my 2vs2 in arena. i pvp with a warlock, and occasionally with a rogue, warlock is the usual deal. my spec is this:
    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?prie...h=000000000000
    i find it really sad that the best mitigation talent is in the holy tree. atm i can't stand the burst damage no matter what i do, though if i had GS as discipline i might have managed. i didn't manage to pvp as holy at all - i just died, survivability, every hit is 80% of my HP, while as discipline i'm like a cloth wearing tank. i took the SoR simpley because usualy me and the other healer die almost the same time, giving my team mate the extra 15 secs with a healer. i didn't find a better way to spec in arena, penance is extra bad for arena every player that can interrupt sees it coming from a mile, you can't "burst heal" yourself, so its for saving others, we all know that in arena its nice to be able to save others, but not in the cost of losing my life, or worst geting the CS. the one thing i miss for pvp is grace and ofc the 51 talent point in discipline that should deal with mitigation and survivability over a spell i can't cast on self that is easly interuptable.

    for random world pvp and BG's i do play with penance cause its "cool" not cause its that good for pvp.

  5. #25

    Re: thoughts on the holy 51 pointer...?

    - Guardian Spirit is an "Oh shit" button and a good one at that.

    - You might be a decent MT healers as Disc. As holy you're a decent MT healer as well, and a good raid healer on top of that.

    - If you go OOM as fast as you claim, perhaps you should realise that healing a heroic or Naxx requires a different set of gear then dancing on a mailbox in Ironforge or cyboring in Darnassus. You damn nelfs, you never learn...

  6. #26

    Re: thoughts on the holy 51 pointer...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti

    You're sort of on the right track. Except, it's not just IHC, it's Surge of Light. You also get your Test of Faith to help push your crit a little higher (when it's needed). Also: Serendipity must be maxed. People say "OMG overhealing is bad" but realistically, regardless of how good you are, you're going to do it anyway, whether it's from latency, Judgement of Light, etc. Pushing out a 7k greater heal when tank only needs 6? Sure why not, if you get 25% of the spell's cost back to cast another one, that to me is a net gain.
    I wouldn't like to think that there's people that don't max this one. When I saw that talent I fell in love. Granted, I am a holy paladin so this thing is pure gold in my eyes but I can't see how people fail to realise the power behind this. Lucky crit? more mana; timely Leader of Pack/JoL/Blood Aura? more mana; Tank fears for his life and pots? more mana; Random healing spell from fellow healer splashes to your target? more mana

    In overall, keeping your overhealing below 25% while having this baby maxed out will leave you with a better Heal/Mana ratio, since you are refunded 25% mana even if the overhealing is a lousy 5%. Proffit? Hell yeah
    (This signature was removed for violation of the Avatar & Signature Guidelines)

  7. #27

    Re: thoughts on the holy 51 pointer...?

    Quote Originally Posted by joopxiv
    - Guardian Spirit is an "Oh shit" button and a good one at that.

    - You might be a decent MT healers as Disc. As holy you're a decent MT healer as well, and a good raid healer on top of that.

    - If you go OOM as fast as you claim, perhaps you should realise that healing a heroic or Naxx requires a different set of gear then dancing on a mailbox in Ironforge or cyboring in Darnassus. You damn nelfs, you never learn...
    1. i said that before you, why are you repeating me.

    2. do you know how to read? did you even bother to read properly my first post? for you i will repeat so more could read it again: most talents in holy tree support your mana IF you use single direct spells: holy conc, serendipity are based on single target heals, when it comes to MT healing holy priests are extremely string healers, their heals are huge because of talents, and they won't go oom as fast because of procs. Yet when it comes to talents, there isn't any talent to support a holy priest to mainain high hps on raid. this is a fact, i mean don't bother arguing when it doesn't show on the talent. this is a minus for the priests since he does have mana problems COMPARED to other healers, shamans Chainheal remains extremely efficiant for their mana, my main now is a druid and mana is really just like then end of tbc, i can easly remove mana bar and not look for it if its okey. So for you i'll repeat: a holy priest is built nicely to deal with MT healing, yet when it comes to raid healing, a holy priest will have problems maintaining proper Healing on raid if i compare him to the druid and shaman. Atm, druids and shamans have "easier" mana and more efficiant spells, which leaves the holy priest in a not-so good spot when it comes to raid healing. i didn't once say he wasn't capable.

    3. rofl, this truely made me laugh. i think i might be able to teach you a thing or 2, and tbh if you go to elitistjerk you read and follow my craft. so please: i wrote: discipline has no manaproblems what so ever, yet when you spec holy you will need to drink between packs. i specifically said : comparing the holy to the discipline. i am glad to see that you aren't able of reading properly a post, but able to change words around so you could diss someone who knows more then you.


    i know its hard when someone rerolled you class for a better one, like i did, and when this person still knows alot more then you on your class its also anoying. but when i take time to write such a long post i don't expect ppl to read it, change my words around so they could state what i said is their thoughts.

    in other words: if you didn't bother to read my wall of text, don't bother commenting on it.

  8. #28

    Re: thoughts on the holy 51 pointer...?

    Because disregarding my opinion because "you know more then me" even if you have no idea who I am or what I've done is a compelling arguement, amirite?

    Holy priests don't have mana issues, period. They need to manage their mana, which isn't a hard thing to do, and it should be required on any mana using class. It's part of playing the class right, the "skill" that seperates good healers from the bad ones.

    I don't think Disc is a valid raid spec, unless you lack holy paladins. It doesn't bring what holy brings, and the fact that you don't go OOM is not relevant because you shouldn't go OOM as holy either. I can't compare holy with other healing classes properly at the moment because right now the differences in gear level are too big for me to make a good judgement on this. If you say you can heal with your druid without ever looking at your mana bar, then I think that either that class is broken or you're not playing it to the fullest capacity. Blizzard explicitely said that this isn't the way they want people to play, they want mana management to be an issue for all users.

    I don't care that you don't play my class anymore, you're not even on my server so why should I. Priest is an amazing class, and I perform well with it. If it's too hard for you, then don't hesitate and faceroll your druid.

    I was really under the impression that you were argueing that Disc is better then Holy right now. I don't agree. If I was mistaken, I apologise. But if you can't handle someone disagreeing with you, you should refrain from posting on public forums.

  9. #29

    Re: thoughts on the holy 51 pointer...?

    Quote Originally Posted by mutantboy
    Respec Disc if you want to be a healer and rethink your options when you get to harder content.

    As a disc healer I NEVER pick up 4 stacks of biscuits when a table is dropped now. As holy I needed to and drink every single break I could. (Mind you I did tend to spam CoH too much because it was easy mode) Paying for my own drinks would have sent me to the poorhouse! :P

    Now I grab one stack of biscuits and after several instance runs have 1/2 left. I think the only times I go under 1/3 mana is when someone over pulls and we have to clear 8-10 mobs. But normally I am regenning mana so quickly by the last kill I am over 2/3 again.

    And 51pt talent - OMFG I LOVE Penance. I love it more than CoH or any other heal spell I have ever used.

    Pom the tank, hit renew, Penance when damaged, keep an eye out for spikes and make sure you can sheild yourself without losing focus so your G/heal is hasted

    And quite good at killing stuff too :P
    not sure what you are doing with your mana as holy that makes you have to drink all the time... being holy at 70 and now starting heroics at 80 i never have mana problems... especially in 5 man heroics Prayer of Mending and Renew will be your main two healing spells on trash, and even on bosses with a couple greater premptives thrown in... i never make a tank stop pulling unless im under 25% mana, and even then i just drink while the tank makes the pull...

    there is nothing i hate more than slow heroics, so even if im OOM after a pull, i just pop a shadowfiend and keep goin...

    i have never tried disc spec since my priest was a 3rd alt like i said, but now that she is my main ima be tryin disc for pvp...

    however, if disc works for you for healing, i say keep it going, no reason to fix what isnt broken imo... but if you wanted to go holy, i think its just a matter of smart spell casting... we arent pally's and dont need to spam like pallys, just be a bit smarter in choices...

    as far as raiding, i would never consider deep disc for healing, i just wouldnt... but for 5 mans, i may give it a try, iono... but you have me interested...

  10. #30

    Re: thoughts on the holy 51 pointer...?

    Quote Originally Posted by joopxiv
    Because disregarding my opinion because "you know more then me" even if you have no idea who I am or what I've done is a compelling arguement, amirite?

    Holy priests don't have mana issues, period. They need to manage their mana, which isn't a hard thing to do, and it should be required on any mana using class. It's part of playing the class right, the "skill" that seperates good healers from the bad ones.

    I don't think Disc is a valid raid spec, unless you lack holy paladins. It doesn't bring what holy brings, and the fact that you don't go OOM is not relevant because you shouldn't go OOM as holy either. I can't compare holy with other healing classes properly at the moment because right now the differences in gear level are too big for me to make a good judgement on this. If you say you can heal with your druid without ever looking at your mana bar, then I think that either that class is broken or you're not playing it to the fullest capacity. Blizzard explicitely said that this isn't the way they want people to play, they want mana management to be an issue for all users.

    I don't care that you don't play my class anymore, you're not even on my server so why should I. Priest is an amazing class, and I perform well with it. If it's too hard for you, then don't hesitate and faceroll your druid.

    I was really under the impression that you were argueing that Disc is better then Holy right now. I don't agree. If I was mistaken, I apologise. But if you can't handle someone disagreeing with you, you should refrain from posting on public forums.
    on the oposite, i love hearing that holy is great, i played holy since wow was out and iloved it. i already said the only reason i re-rolled is simpley cause i love being the verstile healer that can fit into every "job". atm druids do that better then holys to my veiw cause of mana, not any other reason. i am saying this on a raid pve not in heroics. (its really important to me to say it again: i am talking about raiding as holy, druid has more verstile gamestyle to my veiw).

    i am more then happy to see your thought, but find it extremely weird that you don't even bother to read or understand properly what i stated. i stated a fact that i checked: (after all demanding to be right and heard, telling me i dont listen when not once i wuoted you incorrectly when you've already second time refrazed what i said and changed it to how you understood it. its not my problem you don't understand things as they are written).

    the first fact i check is what makes discipline pve vailable, i didn't say i'm happy with it or not happy with it. the reason i stated this was simpley because if i will suggest to swap penance with gaurdian spirit, and to my veiw make the holy tree "awesome" for pve and the discipline tree "awesome" for pvp, the one thing that might come up is "discipline can't be pve without penance" so i tested it and stated the fact that i proved: discipline only needs rapture to be pve vailable. thats all i said, on the oposite from what i wrote i kind of "loled" at discipline being so easy to play and hadle the mana. it is truely the easiest spec to heal tank, even easier then holy paladin.

    another thing that you twice already said that i said, which isn't true and this is the second time i repost it: i stated that if i compare mana managment as discipline and mana management as holy, somewhere holy has a huge disadvantage. since from what you wrote i understand that like me, you feel that its stupid to spec discipline for pve - i assume you didn't try it. i did try it, i did feel stupid cause it is so easy and not challenging. i am glad to see that a pvper that mainly pvp's can allow himself to come to pve raids and easly heal, yet the situation now, from my testing is that its unbalanced (as i said before). i believe holy should get another "peak" on their tree and mana managment, since the healing game in pve is not only mana managment, ofc i can say i came as holy to raid and when i used the correct spell at the correct time i had no mana problems. ofc that is true, ofc i can say i went heroic and had zero mana problems as holy. yet that wasn't my point. my point wasn't to tell everyone how pro i am and able to play multiple specs on my priest. my point was simpley that holy feels unbalanced compared to the "easiness" of the discipline priest.

    I do believe after raiding 3rd week now all the contest (yes i want you to know that i have more experiance then the 1 reset most ppl did, i have done today my 3rd raid to nax 25m full clear). and it feels like holy priests aren't balanced properly. i don't see a holy priest as the strong healer he was, oposite i see him geting weaker in the mana department, which this is something that shouldn't happen, when i play resto druid i usualy am able to give my inervate to others, can a holy "give" his fiend to others? not in this "life time". ofc you can come and say "gear lvl" or "others have better gear". yet i don't want to compare my skills VS a different player with different skills. so i simpley compared my holy priest with the same gear as discipline and as holy. what i found was that discipline had no mana problems, when holy was runing low. this is in simple words the sentance: if i COMPARE holy to discipline. i hope now you get what i meant. and not aruge over things i didn't say. (and i will repeat: i didn't run oom, cause contest is too easy and things die too fast, but compare to discipline, finishing on patchwerk on 80% mana with fiend used, as holy i was on 4% mana when he died, had exactly i more greater heal mana to cast. use fiend, hymm. this happened on almost every encounter: discipline too easy on mana, holy abit too hard on mana).

    i didnt say i run oom, simpley cause you don't know me as a player - i never run oom not as holy, definetly not as discipline. i simpley compare mana usage between these to specs. my main concern about the mana is what will hapen when encounter will actually be hard, pve raiding should be more harder and not made for the casual "i log on saturdays to raid" player. when this encounter comes, most likely all healers will have mana problems, just like almost every new hard encounter that was released (i don't know if you ever done mother pre nerf, vashj prenerf - though were very mana painfull to all healers), Yet from what i see now, it will be harder on the holy's then other healers. and thats why i mainly think holy tree and discipline tree should be checked. i think discipline gamestyle in pve is too easy and should be abit more complicated, and i think that COMPARED the holy priest is abit behind (i caps the word compared since you constantly forget i say it, and change it to me saing "i go oom", donno how that is made in your head, again: thats not what i'm saying).. i think that this is something that should be worked on. i don't think there should be any spec in this game that a robot can play (atm discipline). they added complexability to holy paladins (and i know this cause i also have a holy paladin alt. i don't have a resto shaman alt, yet). yet left the discipline rather "bot" feeling, that the true "wow" is seeing volleys fly and bubbles appear - really every time someone says "discipline is so nice, its only the bubbles and the penance grafical effect, remove these 2 effects and all will go back to: why am i like a bot?). i find it lame for pve, and my main concern was the pvp aspect, since penance is not that much of a wow when it comes to pvp. more of a "look he's healing CS!".i do feel that holy's are neglected. as well as the pvp side of the discipline tree.

    you can say as much as you want, please don't continuosly change the things i said, please stop stating how you play cause i rly don't care if you go oom or not. with the easiness of the contest atm, no one should go oom. the contest atm is too easy, just like discipline gamestyle. blizz has forgotten that there are also core players in wow that want the encounters to be complex and hard, and made all the contest to the casual BGing on saturday players. do you really expect to go oom like this? ofc not. Yet again this is me replying to you saying something that i didn't say: i never said holy's go oom, i said compared.

    for me its enough that i had to repeat myself 2 times just for you to understand i didn't say holy's run oom. so just in case: i don't run oom. holy's dont run oom. that is not what i'm saying. i am pointing out a dissadvantage of a holy, that i think shouldn't be their. Mana management should be a issue to all healers, and atm its more of a issue to the holy (this doesn't mean i said i go oom). by a meaning, discipline priests doesn't need to "manage mana" at all, when he goes low fiend, and rly hard for him to go down. same with the other healers, mana management is a issue for them, all healers got additional powerfull tools to regen their mana (don't make me write them down). but not as much as its a issue for the holy priest. you can argue on this one, feel free. this one relats alot to skill, yet if i take a "blank" player, and check only acording to talents, abilities to regen and get back mana, spell costs: holy priests are in a disadvantage position (again: i didn't say go oom, i said: i think all healers should worry about mana equally, not the holy priest alot more, when the dsicipline doesn't even care).

    when it comes to saying your thoughts thats what i did. if there is someone who is hard with accepting he didn't know some things its you: consistingly quoting me, but not really me, just something you thought u understood by removing afew words of my sentances doesn't mean that your eligable to say thats what i said, or even worse: say that i argue with you? man i didn't argue, you said you don't go oom, good for you. you said i said i go oom - i corrected you: i didn't, and i don't. then again you posted that i said it, when i didn't. please, you lecture me about accepting other ppl's opinions when you just don't even bother reading properly posts? i wonder why you do this? do u have a need to say you don't go oom and others do? if so here you go from me: your a pro holy piest, the best. happy? can you now let go from saying if you go oom or not, this isn't what i'm talking about, and truely no one gives a fuck if you go oom or not. i'm not talking about you, i never did. i didn't say any of the things you said i said. and for someone whos so insisting that ppl should listen and accept that others think the same, please explain:
    "Holy priests don't have mana issues, period" quote from joopxiv. aright so no one must argue with you. (i call everyone who hates drinking every 5 packs to reply on this period fact, since perhaps our friend priest didn't understand that mana issues isn't only not going oom (which is very importnat for everyon
    eg to know: joopxiv doesn't go oom - dont forget that), but being able to maintain some sort of HpM in a pve raid, and ofc not siting to drink every 3 packs, or using shadow fiend every CD, hymm every CD and still needing to sit and drink while everyone waits, something that you don't see a discipline do - saying this from fact cause i played discipline abit in heroics and in pve raids 10m and 25m, and mana bar is something i can remove, when i'll see "out of mana" i'll use fiend and regen, though using fiend as discipline is something i rarely needed to do).

    lets help you say your opinions; i play holy and i don't have mana issues. period. (i had to add that lol period, especially made me laugh after reading your last sentance lecturing me that i don't get other ppl's opinion. yes: cause i'm the one writing period? i'm the one who doesn't bother reading properly other ppls posts? if you bothered to read you would've noticed alot of 'to my veiw' and no "periods" leaving plenty of place to add more from others. yet you didn't add more, you just took my words changed them around, made up a new sentance and decided i said it, apperantly i also said "i'm Cat the proness, and all listen and obey me, never argue with me, what i say is all true" right? those were "exactly my words /sarcasm off.)
    as i metioned above: i doubt holys here will agree with you, i think drinking every 3 packs in a heroic is anoying and i think most holy's will agree (this ofc isn't mana issues as i stated before in previous posts: holy don't have mana issues but its damn anoying to go without replenishment and drink every 3-5 packs, when as disci/resto druid/resto shaman/holy paladin they need to drink perhaps once in a heroic, i am refering to a heroic, although my first post was about raids simpley cause i see from your post that you are talking about heroics). when i play on my resto druids i do full runs of heroics without inervating myself one or drinking, simpley cause i don't go below 80% mana in heroics- so? does this means its a fact? no it means i know to control my mana. yet the holy priest, no matter what will have to drink every few packs. (ofc if you have a replenishment effect then you won't so don't start with all this crap, i can also play with a retridin, a hunter and a shadowpriest, a druid tank that inervates me and NEVER go oom, and never sit and drink, and never use shadowfiend, but this isn't what i am talking about and i hope you do get what i mean and that i won't read the next post of yours saying i said holy's go oom, or saying i said holy's can't play in raid or any other invention that you can make). So my point was to show the disadvantage a holy priest has that he shouldn't have, a holy priest shouldn't worry/struggle/think about mana more then others, a discipline priest shouldn't be able to ignore totaly his mana bar. I think holy's have it abit harder on their mana, same with their "tree" and amount of points in holy tree i think should get peaked at by blizz. merging points allowing us more options in the loaded talent tree's of ours. i think that if you read this properly without changing my words, missunderstanding or being a period like you did on your last post, open your mind abit to real issues and not act like a random casual that logs on saturday and has no idea how to check his general preformance, you'll say i might have a point or two, and i hope blizz will notice this and check it as well, that if this will become a issue later on when contest becomes abit more challenging and not something i can do with my eyes closed. this is not me saying "other classes need nerf on their mana usage", i am saying holy priests got abit 'fucked', have to manage their mana more then other classes, discipline isn't perfect or close to be for pvp, and holy/discipline tree's should be re-inspected - for you: PERIOD (lol).

  11. #31

    Re: thoughts on the holy 51 pointer...?

    Guardian spirit is far too situational to take over divine spirit imo; I switched not too long ago and the imp mana regen/spwll power is nice. Yes, guardian spirit will save you ass a couple times but really its not worth it in the long run. At least thats my take on it.

  12. #32

    Re: thoughts on the holy 51 pointer...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Humbaba
    Guardian spirit is far too situational to take over divine spirit imo; I switched not too long ago and the imp mana regen/spwll power is nice. Yes, guardian spirit will save you ass a couple times but really its not worth it in the long run. At least thats my take on it.
    i agree... GS really not gonna be used enough to spec into it... especially if you dont have any healers with spirit buff...

  13. #33

    Re: thoughts on the holy 51 pointer...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Humbaba
    Guardian spirit is far too situational to take over divine spirit imo; I switched not too long ago and the imp mana regen/spwll power is nice. Yes, guardian spirit will save you ass a couple times but really its not worth it in the long run. At least thats my take on it.
    I'm putting more than 50 into holy, so DS isn't an option. So GS is worth the 1 point, for me.
    (This signature was removed for violation of the Avatar & Signature Guidelines)

  14. #34

    Re: thoughts on the holy 51 pointer...?

    I was wondering, does anyone use the Guardian as another form of oo5sr kind of ability? Is it even possible? Pop it and let the time run out, or the tank "die". Then resume healing, possibly by using Innerfocus before. I'm thinking in a raidsituation a couple of priests take turns using it granting eachother valuble time oo5sr?

  15. #35

    Re: thoughts on the holy 51 pointer...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Black
    i agree... GS really not gonna be used enough to spec into it... especially if you dont have any healers with spirit buff...
    Ever heard of "Fel Intelligence", y'know the warlock buff? That's 64 instead of 80 (or talented for 70 instead of 80). And the point of GS is like the point of Last Stand. You spec into it, hoping you don't have to use it but always have it on hand IF the situation arises.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabbagooba
    I was wondering, does anyone use the Guardian as another form of oo5sr kind of ability? Is it even possible? Pop it and let the time run out, or the tank "die". Then resume healing, possibly by using Innerfocus before. I'm thinking in a raidsituation a couple of priests take turns using it granting eachother valuble time oo5sr?
    Umm, wow. That's... that's really hot. I need to find me more Holy friends now >.>
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  16. #36

    Re: thoughts on the holy 51 pointer...?

    GS is definitively a relatively useless spell outside of raiding.

    I tried casting it on myself to use it as a "cheap heal" while farming. The mob ended up killing me too slow, and I died 10.3 seconds later. There is just no usages for it while soloing.

    I tried casting it on myself while being assaulted by a boomkin. He killed me pretty fast, like 3 seconds tops, GS hit in. He almost killed me again in the next GCD, but I used Desperate Prayer at the last second, critting me to almost full HP again. Then I started a GHeal, but he killed me before it landed. And I was dead. But he had to drink afterwards, so it felt like a victory. But still, GS isn't really that useful in PVP. Healers in general are free HK in PVP these days, and make almost no difference anyway. So we all reroll dps for PVP.

    There is this rumor on my server about two priests casting GS at the same time (giving him a double buff) on Thrall when the Alliance was trying to take him down (pre-Wotlk, post 3.0), and both buffs hit at the same time bringing thrall back up to 100% HP. I don't know if this rumor is true, but most NPCs seem immune to it as far as I can see. But not all.

    For heroics, I usually cast it when I'm almost out of mana and thing are going to hell anyway. But that's not really effective, because if the tank is taking heroic amounts of damage, 1 GS is worth about 1.5 GHeal Crit. I've used it on an overaggroing warlock once, but he just died 0.7 seconds later on the next swing anyway. GS isn't that great in heroics, to be honest. You either can heal the party, or you don't. And if you sdon't GS won't save you. There is just no middle ground. Maybe except on Loken.

    For raids, it's quite good though. I'm still learning new things about the spell.

    I've tried casting it on various friendly NPC's, like the mindcontrolled understudies in Naxx/25 at Instructor Razorvious. That worked great, the understudy survived, back at 50% HP (making GS a great healing spell!), but he lost the Mindcontrol in the process. And proceeded onto promptly one-shotting me as I suddenly generated some 75k aggro.

    On Maexxna 10-man, we were three priests healing. No poison removal around meant the encounter were hellishly hard. And our DPS sucked badly. But 3x GS meant that we could keep the tank up for the 5 minutes, 30 seconds required for the DPS to down the boss. I don't think any other healing setup would've lasted that long.

    On patchwerk, GS sucks though. the health gained from GS is good for one life, but the tank usually die 2 seconds later anyway, meaning that you will not have time to land a GHeal.

    All in all, I find it a bit hard to use GS effectively. Which is probably why it is as good as it is. You will need jedi reflexes to use GS, and those are hard to come by. If you recognize the situation as one where the tank is at <10% and as good as dead, the time it takes for you to react plus network lag will invariably kill the tank. But if you can predict where the tank will take abysmal amounts of damage, GS totally rocks, and is the best if only reason for bringing a holy priest.

    Because yes, the manaregen suck. I went from almost 300 MP5 while casting to 175 MP5 while casting by going up 10 levels. At the same time, the cost of spells went up by 30-50%. This means spirit based healers got doubly punished. But druids are already quite efficient, leaving priests at a dump. I usually spend 60-80 waters raiding for 5 hours. it's gotten a lot better by simply getting 2 epic items, and I expect that a fully lvl80 epic priest will be a good powerhouse again. Until then, we're in a dump. Nerfing CoH will have absolutely no impact on me at the moment, because I never use it. I just can't afford to.

    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

  17. #37

    Re: thoughts on the holy 51 pointer...?

    Hmmm, why do I always have to read about people ending up w/ 200 mp5?

    OF COURSE you lose mana regen cmp. to lvl 70.

    But why in gods name do you not use gear that has spirit on it?!

    I am using exactly one single T7 piece now. And end up at > 1100 MP5 ooc and ~390 MP5 ic

    Sure, that is less than before. But then again I went to over 2k spell power buffed and my spells do a funky 50% more heal. (cmp lvl 70 gheal @ 6-7k iirc and lvl 80 @ ~10k)

    So, long story short moan: You got real mana problems? Well, go for mana regen on your gear?!

  18. #38

    Re: thoughts on the holy 51 pointer...?

    Quote Originally Posted by dionadar
    Hmmm, why do I always have to read about people ending up w/ 200 mp5?

    OF COURSE you lose mana regen cmp. to lvl 70.

    But why in gods name do you not use gear that has spirit on it?!

    I am using exactly one single T7 piece now. And end up at > 1100 MP5 ooc and ~390 MP5 ic

    Sure, that is less than before. But then again I went to over 2k spell power buffed and my spells do a funky 50% more heal. (cmp lvl 70 gheal @ 6-7k iirc and lvl 80 @ ~10k)

    So, long story short moan: You got real mana problems? Well, go for mana regen on your gear?!
    i believe the stats you mentioned were not unbuffed but when buffed in raid. i also really don't understand why you decided to tell us about this. Danner pointed out some important things on his post: atm regen from spirit is not that amazing. i actually have now 27% crit and i believe this is the main reason why i don't go oom and not my mana regen, since SoL procs nicely and you have holy conc.+improved (holy concentration + improved is extremely disspointing proc rate, i loged 3 raids with 27% crit buffed ofc, and had 7.3% proc rate on holy conc acording to the phrase logs, although the simple calculation shows that it should proc alot more, bugged? i don't know 3 logs show on patchwerk i had 27% holy crit acording to log, holy conc proc - 7.3%. this spell should be somehow changed so i will actually benifit more procs then it used to be at 70, and not by 1%. i don't know if its bugged that the procs are so low, but its definetly dissapointing i was expecting to see atleast a 10% proc rate or more). i think that a nice way to fix holy conc is perhaps making improved holy conc give you 2 free greater heals, and not 1. this acording to the log will increase the proc rate to 14% which seems much more nicer. i did a rough calculation and i don't believe i am able to get more crit then i have atm without neglecting other important stats to me (as i mentioned on other threads and on Jerks, as holy my thoughts are: spell power -> crit/spirit -> rest, ofc every one can chose what he wants, since i don't want to lower my spell power for more crit, atm i don't see a reason to get a item with more crit but less spell power, gamestyle don't argue please, its personal opinion and all can do as they wish). perhaps in the next patch.

    i believe gaurdian spirit lacks alot, so called 51 talent point i ending using in heroics/raid for fun (when i mean fun i mean using it to see abig heal and no cause i really need). i don't know how others play, but unless i stand and wait and not heal i don't need to use it. yes sometimes i do that to feel that gaurdian spirit is not totally useless. i can hardly see it as a "last stand", though very close to it, perhaps abit better, though never ended in a situation of tank saving. i saved many dpsers that over agro's and were about to die. Ofc only if the got BoP or additional heals, as danner said: if the dpser still has agro, or on patwerk i can assume u used it and then hatefull strike came (i healed patwerk 3 times already in heroic and normal mode, and never needed to use it, i solo healed MT healing in 10m without using it, so i assume its gamestyle), but i can relate to the fact that GS will prevent this killing blow - but the next 18k hit will still kill him (i refer to the over agro Dpser that gets the agro in a heroic, since didn't happen to me yet that i had to use it on a tank, he never got that low that i had the urge. sometimes i don't heal and use it just when he's about to die, for fun though - not any other reason. i guess to justify it).

    i believe gaurdian spirit is not that good for pvp as it is now in the holy tree: i went pvp holy spec today and was all day pvped. first of all: its purgeable/disspellable or w/e, for some reason every time i met a enhanc shaman it never proced and got off me threw his purges, same with hunters. And in addition, when i use it on my self, since when i die i become SoR it doesn't proc, i noticed today that it is very "bugged" - as in: sometimes it procs, and sometimes i got SoR with it on me (you see on combat log "you gain spirit of redeption." "you lose prayer of fortitude" "you lose gaurdian spirit"). the way its bugged i see no reason why insisting on the fact it makes holy pvp avialable - it doesn't. i have no ability to kill others since i'm so vornable as holy even with abit off ressiliance (so far i have 650 ish ressiliance, which is not caped, i have some vault's gear and my lvl 70 ressiliance gear, ofc my pvp gear is a combination, as dicipline i have 21k hp, as holy 18k, self buffed in pvp gear). with the same gear as discipline, not only i survive longer, i am capable of dpsing/manaburning more often. not every hits removes 50-60% of my total HP. when gaurdian spirit procs it only gives me 1 more hit then i die anyway.

    Another spell that i take for the epeen of being a priest, yet rots in my spell book. The last thing i want is a gimmiky encounter in pve that will force you to use Guardian spirit at a specific moment (like justifying priests spots in raid by making it imposiable to kill felmyst without X priests mass dispelling). I believe working abit on this talent, perhaps allowing a minor glyph that makes it more Pve: for example i would love to have a button that doesn't absord death but heals for 50% hp, i'll use it as a NS: sometime like: you gaurdian spirit no longer absords a killing blow yet heals instantly 50% hp and 6 sec duration of 40% increase healing effects. or maybe just changing it it to instantly give 50% HP and the same duration of increased healing.

    the worst thing about it is GCD. even if my brain doesn't lag, and i press it on time, i have a GCD before and after. which makes it less of a reliable way of saving someone. i find myself using if for fun, when my mana is low to regen abit. Very dissapointed. Just as i am from penance not being so good for pvp, just having a cool effect.

    as holy the thing i lack most in raids is a spell that won't kill my mana, that will heal, maybe will be a burst heal (i don't feel like i need a "bread and butter heal" as holy, sorry). the reason i need it as holy: as holy i will raid, forget it its really not fun pvping as a useless healer, especially since when you get the pvp build u dont have even mana burn. so i will pve as holy mainly, atm, except prom - which heals after a damage i lack something that is equivelent to Gaurdian spirit/swiftmend/NS/Riptide. A heal that is instant. as a holy priest usually the heal will be big, cause thats what we do. As a pve raider i will prefer it to be with a short CD and not a long CD - simpley cause i don't want to be situational but able to play around with my short CDs in order to heal. Even a 1 min CD or a 30 sec CD is good enough over 3-6 min CD which means: you use it once per encounter, sometimes twice (on malygos i use Divine hymm once at the begining and its ready again just before phase 3 - which you don't really need it in phase 3 (Dragon phase). i believe the holy pve priest lacks penance - so they could respawnd properly to tank going too low and greater heal not toping it, to a member geting agro. after all the discipline priest is the sheilder, as a holy i always healed the damage, i never sheilded the damage (and if you did good for you, the common sence says: sheild and greater heal cost about the same but greater heal heals more damage then the holy sheild will absord). Ofc GS can be used for it - but the CD is far to long, making the spell far to situational. While as a discilpine priest i don't even take penance for arena but prefer SoR over the 51 talent pointer. as i see for now the priests 51 talent points don't answer the tree's demand, but some gimiky idea of blizzard. atleast thats how it feels for me, especially when the god damn gaurdain spirit doesn't even proc and death occuers anyways (alot of bugs). I hope blizzard makes some sort of change, even reducing Gaurdians spirit CD to 1-2mins will make it more available for pve. i feel abit weird that priests have really nice and amazing 51 talent points yet: for holy pve i will go with Divine spirit aventually (sorry to dissapoint the poster above about the fel intellegance thingy but our warlocks prefer a dps spec over using in raids their fel hunter, we have 2 warlocks demonolgy-desturction with felgaurds out ofc, and 1 destruction warlock who uses his imp - not for HP simpley cause of the talent tree - check out why if your curious). for pvp arena i wouldn't take penance and i already have a spec, which includes SoR in he holy tree and rest of the points in disci. i find it sad that these specs don't include the developers works, simpley because they mistaken the tree. (btw: if GS was discpline's 51 talent point i would be so happy, it is amazing for pvp i totaly agree with blizzard, yet doesn't fit the holy tree. am i the only one who doesn't see holy as pve valiable? who thinks like this?)

    please no posts about mp5s and oom problems, the discusion about 51 talent point and the points that were made by players here are amazing for me to read, seeing priests feeling what i did while playing on the beta. this coming up here might be readen by some dev. or blizz, or even get linked to the US forums (sometimes happens). If 51 talent points are changed to be more related to the trees (discipline tree should get a mitigation 51 talent and holy should get a healing related spell 51 talent) i will reroll back to playing my priest as main!

    (Danner amazing points you put here about gardian spirit - not what you wrote about npcs - abit irrelevant GS doesn't stack no more, some Npc you can heal/use GS on and some you can't heal/buff, the other parts are exactly what i feedbacked on alpha and beta, your last paragraphs says it all: all healer are efficiant, druids are just closest to priests in verstile healing, but druids are alot more efficiant. I even have a druids in guild that now joined who just spams rejub on raid - talented and glyphs it does the job needed, places him really high and impressive on healing meters just by mainly healing with rejub. i find this weak, and sad that a druid can spam rejub, a shaman CH, a paladin FoL. i assume holy's nerf to mana was in order not to spam, yet all other classes are able to spam cast same spell without any worries about mana, i hope someone takes what you wrote and posts it in US forums, also if you find a bug in the Gaurdian spirit report it, just today i spoke to a GM about the bug and the reply was that an issue of gaurdian spirit not procing properly is known and checked, reporting these issues will help finding what is the exact bug).

  19. #39
    Field Marshal Moppe's Avatar
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    Re: thoughts on the holy 51 pointer...?

    Hey there all.

    I'm relatively new to being a priest, I played it as a main for about a year now (TBC). Starting out as the amazing 23/38/0 talent if I remember correctly, (the one with improved divine spirit and 3 points in Empowered healing). When 3.0 came out my guild were struggling at Illidan, so I decided to try out disc healing when every other priest in my guild stayed Circle of Healing specced.

    And then WOTLK came out, levelled up to 80 as disc. Planned to respecc at 80 to Holy. And as I hoped my guildmates would go back to Crowd controlling mobs in heroics, I found it hard to heal, mainly because my gear sucked. So I respecced back to disc, to get some more crit (the weakend soul for example gives some more crit) and to boost my mana regen what it needed. I love to go back to holy but I think I actually forgot the rotation of spells. When I was going back to Holy, I PoM, Renewed, (CoH when needed), and GH on tank with stopcasting macro. However, in long fights, I have a tendence to struggle keeping my mana up.

    Before WOTLK and I guess the spirit nerf, I only stacked my t6 items with +10 spirit gems, which was awesome. Now I am a bit confused of what I need to stack, (guess I miss the old "bonus healing" items) There are now cloth items with Spirit haste, Crit mp5, high Int mp5, and ofc, the "i dont want hitrating" items. I also read a post somewhere on the priest forums that as from 3.0 priests need more crit, however I think it is weird that Priests are one of the classes who benefit least from intellect in a crit sense.

    So to make it short, I am disc healer, healing naxxaramas, with me and a pally healer (2 healers total) 10 mans, we had to invite a 3rd healer on the 4 horseman, sapphiron and kelthuzad and I do not struggle with mana, aye maybe it is too easy to play as meowmeow stated in his posts. But I just think it was a bit more fun to play, using shields, getting borrowed time, put up a GH etc, a bit more to do, however I can clearly see this being subjective.

    Maybe meowmeow is correct that holy is not as favourable as the other classes for raidhealing, but as you cannot downrank anymore, how do you keep your spellrotation for long fights or healing intense fights like sapphiron as holy and raid healer? Thanks for any input.
    "Ahh... We are all heroes; you and Boo and I. Hamsters and rangers everywhere, rejoice! "

  20. #40

    Re: thoughts on the holy 51 pointer...?

    Heya Moppe.

    As you have discovered, Spirit has been hit hard by the nerfbat in WoTLK. Where in TBC some 420ish intellect used to give you the breaking point where spirit turned into a good stat, WoTLK place the bar closer to 1300 intellect for the same benefit. As very few priests can hope to acquire 1300 intellect anytime soon, spirit will be subpar compared to TBC. It's not horrible, it's just not the most efficient way of getting more manaregen.

    You can either stack on the MP5 gear. It's hard to come by, and it will be invalidated once you do hit those 1300 intellect, but it will help you a lot. But as a priest, your forte should be exploiting the five second rule, and MP5 gear does nothing for you in that respect. I don't like MP5 gear personally, and don't htink any priest do.

    So, intellect is the way to go. This may sound weird, but intellect is a fantastic stat for manaregen. Because almost all manaregen abilities now work on max manapool size. Keep in mind that 1 intellect gives you 15 mana.

    - Replenishment yields 0.25% of you manapool -> 1 int yields 0.1875 MP5
    - Shammy manatide totem yields 24% of your manapool every 5 minutes -> 1 int yields 0.06 MP5
    - Priest hymn of hopelessness yields 8% of your manapool every 5 minutes -> 1 int yields 0.02 MP5
    - Shadowfiend yields up to 40% of your manapool every 5 minutes -> 1 int yields 0.1 MP5
    - Blood elves only: Arcane torrent yields 6% of your manapool every 2 minutes -> 1 int yields 0.0375 MP5
    - BoK increase the gains above by 10%
    - Discipline: Mental Strength increase the gains above by 15%

    Summary assuming optimal use of all this:
    Holy Priests will get 0.4 MP5 per point of int
    Blood Elf Holy Priests will get 0.44 MP5 per point of int.
    Discipline Blood Elf Priests will get 0.5 MP5 per point of int

    In addition, 166 int yields 1% crit, which increase your chance of proccing Holy Concentration and Surge of Light.

    At 1293 intellect, 1 spirit yields 0.3 MP5 while casting
    - Spirit of redemption will increase this by 5%. 0.315 MP5 per spirit.
    - BoK increase the gains above by 10%, moving you up to 0.345 MP5 per spirit.
    - Humans increase the gains above by an additional 3% moving you up to 0.354 MP5 per spirit.

    In addition, 1 spirit yields 0.25 spellpower through Holy: Spiritual Guidance.

    If you can exploit the FSR heavily, spirit is better. But if you can not, spirit will be hard pressed to beat intellect. You decide when this happens.

    As for your question: yes, priests have heavy mana issues. Get a full T7 gear, and you will be in a much better state. Until then, stock runic manapots, use liberally. Befriend a druid for innervates. Make sure you party with a shammy with manatide. Conserve mana. And don't waste heals. Stopcast whenever possible. It's hard. But think of it like a training exercise. Once you master this, the price reward is a T7 set, and you will be a much better healer.

    *edited for "The Human Spirit" number correction, thanks Kelesti!. I also forgot about Spirit of Redemption, so adding that*
    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

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