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  1. #1

    Shadow Priest in Raids?

    First off I would like to say that I love the changes to the Shadow Priest as far as our damage output although frustrating since we now have to change all our gear to optimize the damage output. I still think it is worth it.

    My biggest concern with the SP now is our raid viability and here is the point I'd like to make concerning this:

    The buffs that we bring are overshadowed by other classes or even our own. Example: as holy I would be able to heal and still bring fort and/or spirit and shackle. The only thing lost is 3% hit which is significant however the other class that offers that buff brings alot more to the table which is the boomkin. A boomkin offers 3% hit and 5% crit along with stat buffs and a cc. I can't remember if they bring more than that but I think that is sufficient to make my point. As far as our replenishment, a Ret pally brings that and refreshes it more often and again offers alot more advantages then a SP.

    I realize that in a 25 man 3 replenishments are needed in order to have maximum effectiveness but why bring a Shadow Priest when you could bring a Druid and a combination of ret pallies and maybe even a survival hunter? You would get more dps and have better buffs.

    I have been told by my raid leader that I would most likely be allowed into raiding content as a SP because I don't offer enough to be viable over another class. I have great healing gear but I always wanted my priest to be shadow and now that we have good dps we still don't have enough.

    This isn't a QQ. I just want to see if there are others that feel the same way and maybe get some suggestions on how this issue could be fixed. Like I said I am not looking for more DPS, just something that we as SP's could offer to a raid that perhaps no one else can bring including ourselves as Holy.

    P.S. The healing from VE is not viable enough for me to even mention at least from my experience.

  2. #2

    Re: Shadow Priest in Raids?

    Boomkin

    3% hit 5% crit + stat buff + a cc

    Ret pally

    Replenishment and buff

    SP

    Replenishment + 3% hit + buff (sta and shadow) + up to 5% of dps as heals for group + cc


    all 3 will do about the same dps (as long as blizz stick to the game plan)

    In the current build at 70 a SP could top 3 dps a sunwell raid so our dps is competitive.

    If your raid leader doesnt want to bring you its not that the class isn't good. Its either he doesnt like you, you suck or he is a moron.

  3. #3
    Hatredcopter
    Guest

    Re: Shadow Priest in Raids?


  4. #4

    Re: Shadow Priest in Raids?

    Balance Druids do not bring 3% hit unless of course you're talking about IFF in which case, Balance Druids do not bring 3% hit. It is a DPS loss to spec into IFF, no raiding Boomkin will take this talent. We do however bring 3% haste.

    If you're guild won't offer you a spot as shadow then find a new guild.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lansworthy
    Deathwing will come and go RAWR RAWR IM A DWAGON
    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyCasual View Post
    There's no point in saying this, even if you slap them upside down and inside out with the truth, the tin foil hat brigade will continue to believe the opposite.

  5. #5

    Re: Shadow Priest in Raids?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaritnR
    Boomkin

    3% hit 5% crit + stat buff + a cc

    Ret pally

    Replenishment and buff

    SP

    Replenishment + 3% hit + buff (sta and shadow) + up to 5% of dps as heals for group + cc


    all 3 will do about the same dps (as long as blizz stick to the game plan)

    In the current build at 70 a SP could top 3 dps a sunwell raid so our dps is competitive.

    If your raid leader doesnt want to bring you its not that the class isn't good. Its either he doesnt like you, you suck or he is a moron.

    Ret pallys have a CC

  6. #6

    Re: Shadow Priest in Raids?

    I have been following MMO-Champion for a long time now (The begining of BC) and it amazes me that people feel like this is a valid forum to complain about personal issues that could be easily handled by having a one on one with a Guild master of friends in game.


    If you are a good raider, you will get a raid spot. If you feel like your guild leader is forcing you to do something than leave that guild.

    There are millions of players that are having a good time with this game. These complain that "my spec isn't viable" or "nerf this / QQ LAWL WTF BBQ" by newbies is killing me.


    -Keiel, Bringing a Swift Hammer of Justice to MMO-Champion.

  7. #7

    Re: Shadow Priest in Raids?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaritnR
    Boomkin

    3% hit 5% crit + stat buff + a cc

    Ret pally

    Replenishment and buff

    SP

    Replenishment + 3% hit + buff (sta and shadow) + up to 5% of dps as heals for group + cc


    all 3 will do about the same dps (as long as blizz stick to the game plan)

    In the current build at 70 a SP could top 3 dps a sunwell raid so our dps is competitive.

    If your raid leader doesnt want to bring you its not that the class isn't good. Its either he doesnt like you, you suck or he is a moron.
    Uh, what are you talking about? SP's do not have a reliable CC. Shackle Undead is obviously Undead only, and psychic scream is far too dangerous to use in most instances/raids. Also you seem to have missed a few buffs on the other two, such as the partywide heal on a Ret Paladin's Divine Storm, Repentance being their now constant CC on most types of mobs, and the extra 3% crit they bring as well. And it's amazing how you missed the biggest buff Balance now gives, 13% spell damage to the entire raid?

    As for the buffs you mentioned for S. Priests, shadow protection is situational, replenishment can be applied by a Ret Pally just as well, and 3% hit is pointless in raids where any good raider is going to hit cap themselves and not rely on the chance of having an S. Priest in their raid to compensate. Yeah you got me on the heals, but since when is it the DPSes job to heal anyway? Not to mention 5% doesn't really go a long ways. Even when it was 25% it wasn't much.

  8. #8

    Re: Shadow Priest in Raids?

    and that Biggest buff they bring is also supoplied by another class

    Boomkins

    warlocks have a base line 10% version with decreased resistance tagged on and DKnights have a 4% version

    the crit buff they bring is replaced by the shammy version.


    the fact is that a 25 man raid can get all the buffs without much trouble. after that its down to personality and skill

  9. #9

    Re: Shadow Priest in Raids?

    Okay so it seems that half the people who read this didn't understand what I was saying. I am saying that Shadow Priests DON'T bring as much to a raid as the Moonkin,Ret Pally, or even Hunters. So I agree with most of the previous posts but you haven't responded to the issue.

    In regards to MaritnR... my point was that as Holy I still bring the Fort,Shadow buff, and Shackle...so the only two things I offer to the raid is replenishment and 3% hit and so my point was that a Shadow Priest doesn't even outweigh his own classes other spec because other classes offer the same if not better buffs. Therefore bringing the other classes to dps and me heal is more viable. It's not because he doesn't like me, or I suck, or that he's a moron. Simply put he can bring other dps classes that do the same dps and offer more to a raid.

    I was simply looking for any suggestions or arguments for or against bringing a SP to a raid in lieu of a different class. I just feel that SP's need something unique to offer to a raid that no other class can. VE is nice but all it does is increase your threat and marginally heal a group and with healing the way it is, it just isn't that useful. Thank you for your responses though.

  10. #10

    Re: Shadow Priest in Raids?

    I forgot to respond to pwa_keiel. First off I am no newbie. Just because I haven't posted in here doesn't mean I am not knowledgable about my class or that I don't read up on these things. I am not QQing I am simply stating that it would be nice to offer something different to a raid that perhaps no other class does. Doesn't have to be something powerful or anything but it should at least outweigh what another spec in my own class can bring. We are currently full of self buffs which makes it nice for soloing but we are lackluster in raids because we offer the same things that other classes bring and more. I do have a raid spot because I AM a good raider I was just saying that it would be nice to be able to raid as an SP instead of healing as I allready have a Shammy healer. Both are T5 geared mainly because I was in a casual raiding guild until WoTLK came out. Anyhow thanks for the response.

  11. #11

    Re: Shadow Priest in Raids?

    I already know I have a raid spot. I've always stepped up and maximized myself. On paper, I might not always be as efficient as other people. But, for instance, I consistently topped the meters in BT/MH after our love patch, with a Boomkin behind me that normally barely beat me. People can point and say "Your guild is noobs, you should never win, blah blah blah", but we are happy with the progress we achieve, and I am a top DPSer. They know I'll be there, throwing every ounce of DPS I have, and they can gear/gem/enchant to be 3% below hit capped and put out more damage themselves.

    And we can sit here and ask "Why bring a SPriest instead of a Boomkin? Or instead of a Shaman? Or instead of this or that?" The truth is, you won't need very many people now to get all the buffs you want. Then you stack from there with the best people you can. Be pro, and you oughta get your spot.

  12. #12

    Re: Shadow Priest in Raids?

    in BC i raided on my priest from kara-BT/hyjal as holy and shadow and then did 2/6 sunwell pre patch. pre patch, my dps was actually still pretty high compared to the rest of my guild, considering most of them had full T6 for their main sets and i had just recently respecd shadow for them and only had 1 peice T6 and a few decent badge peices but my gear wasnt top notch. pre patch i would usually sit around 6th for dps on boss fights, never really counted trash since there is so much aoe in hyjal and dots suck for trash lol. after the patch i was happy with the dps spriests could put out but i did miss the raid buffs we got. ya they gave us replenishment which i guess is a step up from the old VT, but like u pointed out other classes can give replenishment too. i wouldnt see myself getting imp fort since u only need 1 priest to give it out now and i dont see any point in having too many priests with it. ya they kinda killed alot of our raid buffs, but i do like the new VE, i do alot of group healing with it, i like the dmg buffs we got, the 3% hit is pretty nice but with the old talents misery would give 5% more spl dmg and we would get more hit from shadow focus, we actually need more hit now then we used to which sucks, but i think one thing that is nice about spriests now is our regen. with pot, dispersion, SF i have yet to find a fight where ive run out of mana. i usually never have to pot and with imp spirit tap u can get a ton more regen once u start stacking more crit. ive found that although my fellow guildies still out geared me once i started stacking enough crit i was able to move up to around the #5 position for dps. i think our dps is good enough to bring atleast 1 spriest to a raid, 25 mans atleast, there might be better classes for 10 mans but atleast from the guilds ive been in if uve proven urself im sure ull get into them too.

  13. #13

    Re: Shadow Priest in Raids?

    Off all specs, SPs and resto shammies are probably the ones losing more raid spots from TBC to WotLK. Which is fine, as the spots for DKs and other newly competitive specs has to come from somewhere.

    This doesn't mean that SPs won't be viable - they will, but not as critically as before, where 2+ SPs was getting to be a bit of a norm at high end. Now optimized raids will probably have only one. Taking into consideration that there are 30 spec and only 25 raid spots, seems quite fair. But you probably will be able to see anything from 0 to 4 SPs in a raid without much problems.





  14. #14

    Re: Shadow Priest in Raids?

    It's not always what some class brings or if a rogue/hunter will do 10% more dps. Some fights require surviving or being able to last long. Out of the caster dpsers, priest can do all of the above extremely good.

    Not all fights are brutallus where you absolutely needed perfect setup for the gear level available back then, it's about playing with good players and friends. Stop the QQ (and yes, it was a QQ).

  15. #15

    Re: Shadow Priest in Raids?

    Quote Originally Posted by mirena
    ya they gave us replenishment which i guess is a step up from the old VT, but like u pointed out other classes can give replenishment too.
    Are you kidding? That's a joke right? Replenish a step UP from old VT mechanics... you sir obviously have no idea what you're talking about. We cap out at replenishing 15% of someone's mana per minute. I could do 15% in 5 seconds before patch 3.0.2 =/

    We do more DPS now that is true. Mind Sear is the best AoE in the game, that is true. We bring raid utility and overall decent group comp. .. well that's true too. What's the point of this thread again?

  16. #16

    Re: Shadow Priest in Raids?

    With the homogenization of buffs, talking about "bringing extra to the raid" is a moot point. Essentially all of those "unique things" you're talking about should already be present in the raid. Saying priests need something unique is something EVERY class is saying. I play a warrior so don't even get me started on this point.

    What syanid said is very true (with the exception of the talking about the QQ) Sps have awesome survivability. As long as you can survive and dps, you'll do fine, which is exactly what your class allows you to do. You heal yourself for a significant amount of damage, have a self heal talent, and in EXTREME circumstances you can provide off-heal or even heal yourself. My experience has been, thus far, that SP dps is quite high, usually in the top 5. Your raid leader being concerned with "maximizing benefit" cannot be a very good raid leader. Now, the raid are all about people surviving, not being stupid, and going all out dps, which practically every good DPS class in this game are close. A 50-150 DPS difference (will change obviously...not sure how though ) is no reason to exclude someone from a raid when everyone is doing well above 2600+.

  17. #17

    Re: Shadow Priest in Raids?

    Quote Originally Posted by noz3r0
    Are you kidding? That's a joke right? Replenish a step UP from old VT mechanics... you sir obviously have no idea what you're talking about. We cap out at replenishing 15% of someone's mana per minute. I could do 15% in 5 seconds before patch 3.0.2 =/
    I'm gonna be generous and I'll say you did at average 1600 dps prior to 3.0.x patch.

    2.4 patch, assuming 1600 dps at average:

    1600 * 0.05 = 80. 80 is mana per second per 1 party member.

    80 * 5 (5 seconds) * 5 (5 members) = 2000 mp5 in total.

    3.0.3 patch, assuming average mana pool of 16K mana:

    16 000 * 0.0025 = 40 mps

    40 (mana per second) * 5 (seconds) * 10 (members) = 2000 mp5.

    Wow, the same numbers :>

    If I am not mistaken, I believe that average mana pool will exceed 16K as the game goes forward. So actually, it IS a step up. The only thing that happened is that mana regen is not tied to our DPS. Plus, we don't get the aggro from restoring mana. Definitely a step up.

    On a side note - any raid leader that says he/she won't bring class X to raid because it doesn't bring Y to the table is not suited for being a raid leader. The game is designed that way that you can literally bring 0 shadow priests or you can bring 5 of them if you want to. Encounter(s) will be doable, people will see it, loot will be distributed.. and voila, everyone's happy.

    And also, Mind Sear is literally the craziest AoE in the game. Patched up with Fade to completely drop aggro for short amount of time.. I am happy with what they did for SPs PvE-wise.

  18. #18

    Re: Shadow Priest in Raids?

    You just crunched your numbers in comparison to one person vs 10. You fail.

    For 16000 base mana:

    3.75% mana regen over a course of 15 seconds x 4 (for a minute) = 15% per minute
    16000 x .15 = 2400 per person per minute.

    At 1600 DPS 2.4 old school stuff:

    1600 x 5% = 80 mana per second x 60 seconds = 4800 mana per person per minute.


    Sure overall its the same because it goes across 10 people now not 5 but each person only regens 2400 mana now and we can't chain chug pots anymore. I'm not sure how many times replenishment is allowed to stack, obviously if everyone has 16k mana and it can stack atleast twice then sure its a side-grade, but otherwise 4800 mana per minute per person > 2400.

  19. #19

    Re: Shadow Priest in Raids?

    Quote Originally Posted by noz3r0
    You just crunched your numbers in comparison to one person vs 10. You fail.

    For 16000 base mana:

    3.75% mana regen over a course of 15 seconds x 4 (for a minute) = 15% per minute
    16000 x .15 = 2400 per person per minute.

    At 1600 DPS 2.4 old school stuff:

    1600 x 5% = 80 mana per second x 60 seconds = 4800 mana per person per minute.


    Sure overall its the same because it goes across 10 people now not 5 but each person only regens 2400 mana now and we can't chain chug pots anymore. I'm not sure how many times replenishment is allowed to stack, obviously if everyone has 16k mana and it can stack atleast twice then sure its a side-grade, but otherwise 4800 mana per minute per person > 2400.
    So why do I fail? Overall, we are going to regen more mana as mana pools get bigger. Sure, there is no need to stack Shadow Priests anymore but I argued the point that change to VT was downgrade but it, clearly, isn't (in raid environment).

    Also, I am willing to bet anything that there weren't that many shadow priests who were able to pull off 1.6K dps in 2.4 on fights that aren't Brutallus but that's material for another topic.

  20. #20

    Re: Shadow Priest in Raids?

    as its been mentioned, my main point is that nobody has a really great unique buff anymore,

    in a 25 man raid set up as long as you dont have 10 of a certain class you WILL get most/all of the important buffs with spaces to spare, spaces that you fill with the best players. No longer will your class guarantee your raid space, your skill will, and that goes for everyone.

    In a 10 man set up you will be missing some buffs, but the encounters wont be designed around you having every buff, so again skill wins.

    Great change for skilled people, horrible change for SP face rollers who only got a raid space because of VT.



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