Balance: Hit Rating > everything?

[Degrador]

I've just come across something rather curious and I'm interested to see if anyone else has noticed this as well. Basically, I've got a spreadsheet that I've written that takes a lot of things into consideration, and I just updated it with the level 80 rating ratios and other stuff (my char is currently 79 - should get there tonight). What I've now noticed though is that for the gear I've currently got (1060 SP, 616 Int, 443 Spr, 44 Hit Rating, 148 Crit Rating, 161 Haste Rating) with this spec http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...h=111907040605 my spreadsheet is actually reporting that Spellpower is a better stat than Hit Rating atm. And it's not just a slight difference, it's suggesting about 20% better (the weightings it's telling me are 0.68 for hit rating vs 0.80 for spell power).

Now I realise the golden rule is usually that hit rating > everything until capped (and my spreadsheet certainly reported as such at 70), but I'm wondering whether anyone else has their own spreadsheets that they use and have updated to level 80 and can report on what they're suggesting?

Maybe this will change quite a bit once my spellpower gets a bit higher but I found it rather curious and thought I'd see if others are finding similar results...

[Ashaera]

1060 is very low SP for raiding (Which is where hit rating matters as most other contest is capped allready at 6%).

Once u ding 80 & start getting some gear you'll quickly have 1500 & early in Naxx you reach 2k with some buffs.
For 1 itemization point hitrating becomes your best bet quite fast, if it aint allready to being with.

[Degrador]

1060 is very low SP for raiding (Which is where hit rating matters as most other contest is capped allready at 6%).

Once u ding 80 & start getting some gear you'll quickly have 1500 & early in Naxx you reach 2k with some buffs.
For 1 itemization point hitrating becomes your best bet quite fast, if it aint allready to being with.

I just put in a SP of 1500 into my spreadsheet and still it comes up with values of 0.8170 for SP and 0.7059 for Hit Rating, so it's still suggesting SP is better. I think the reason is that most people's SP has only gone from 1000 up to 1500 or so (an increase of 50%), meanwhile the rating ratios have all more than doubled, so I think the relative effect of each of the stats has changed.

Has anyone else got spreadsheet data to confirm one way or the other?

[Wyndrunner]

I havn't looked at spreadsheets yet, but in my own experience, doing heroics and things, hit is the most important atm. You'll get spellpower either way on any gear you get, but there are way too many other stats saturating all the gear atm for how important hit is. We've had some trouble on bosses due to DPS being a bit too low, and looking at combat logs, the biggest problem is misses and for melee, glancing blows. We have been hoarding through heroics finding the best way to do most of them, and will actually probably end up farming regulars for a day or two to get the hit rating our dps needs at the moment. Healing and tanking the heroics is no problem at all though, in comparison.

[Degrador]

I havn't looked at spreadsheets yet, but in my own experience, doing heroics and things, hit is the most important atm. You'll get spellpower either way on any gear you get, but there are way too many other stats saturating all the gear atm for how important hit is.

Yeah, but that's sort of ignoring the question I'm basically interested in the relative ratios of it. I know that you can look at the combat logs and see that people missed 10% (or whatever) of their hits and that's a large portion, but ultimately if it means that 42 SP would increase their DPS by more than 42 hit rating, then SP is still the better stat to go for.

I'm quite happy to accept that my spreadsheet is missing something (and atm I've got a feeling I know what it might be), but I'm just curious to see what others have found with their spreadsheets and unfortunately I don't think anecdotal evidence is enough

Edit: Ok, yeah, what I thought might've been an issue did turn out to mis-value hit rating a bit. Still, it hasn't put hit rating a long way ahead and depending on itemization points I'm not sure which way it'd go (does 1 hit rating usually equal 1 SP for itemization points?)

[Wyndrunner]

I guess, all I'm trying to say is, you'll get the SP either way, but most gear has only one of haste / crit / hit all that jazz, just go for the hit until you're capped. I think once you've gotten all the heroics / naxx farmed up it will be really easy to swap stats around. But for now hit would be my main advice for anybody right now, regardless of what their spellpower is, because it's on nearly all the caster gear anyway. IMO spreadsheets are real nice for min-maxing, but only after you've got the bare-essentials covered. Just my opinion though.

[Apostolic]

Well, I think you have truely missed the point of capping your hit. I will do my best to expain it (not sure if you are familuar with raiding).

For most (if not all) classes hit rating is important. Your effecincey is dependent on it. Keeping FF and IS up on the target is important. If those are resisted do to "hit" rating to low then that subtracts the amount of time you are casting DPS spells. Yes in disregarding your hit rating, your personal DPS my have risen. however you have hurt the other 8 or 15 of the other DPSers because you debuffs where not up. Thats what makes hit ratings more important then actual SP or AP.

Take a rogue or fury warrior for example. They need like 900 hit to reach thier cap. They will never hit that. However if they hit their "soft" cap for special abilities I.E. Kick, then they stop that heal or fireball from the boss from getting off and wiping the raid. Sure the rogue could sacrafice all that hit for AP but then they would be useless for their utilities.

I could go on and try and explain all the other classes, but hopefully you understand. Yes spread sheets may show that SP or AP scales better then HIT, but IMO (and most other high end raiding guilds) hit is more important when starting raid then AP or SP.

[Degrador]

Well, I think you have truely missed the point of capping your hit. I will do my best to expain it (not sure if you are familuar with raiding).

Yes I understand the point of capping your hit and am familiar with raiding.

Keeping FF and IS up on the target is important.

Only if you are required to keep them up due to your raid composition. Remember that similar buffs don't stack anymore.

However if they hit their "soft" cap for special abilities I.E. Kick, then they stop that heal or fireball from the boss from getting off and wiping the raid. Sure the rogue could sacrafice all that hit for AP but then they would be useless for their utilities.

That's a little different - the impact of a kick will certainly be noticed, generally because spells that can be kicked almost certainly need to be kicked otherwise the raid takes craploads more damage. If you're also familiar with raiding you'll know that unexpected damage will kill a raid a hell of a lot more often than a fraction less DPS (even if you are required to keep FF up then you can't honestly tell me that a miss causing it to be off for 1.5s (less with haste) 'til you next cast it is going to wipe the raid, and given IS is only a chance to miss then it can't be considered 'unexpected damage' if the boss lands a hit in that time).

I could go on and try and explain all the other classes, but hopefully you understand. Yes spread sheets may show that SP or AP scales better then HIT, but IMO (and most other high end raiding guilds) hit is more important when starting raid then AP or SP.

Yes, I understand that. Having misses can also throw off your rotation which may lead to further DPS losses and I agree that as a caster getting hit capped is almost certainly the first thing you should do (I say almost because I'm sure we both agree that it's pretty stupid to take rogue gear simply because it has 16 hit rating on it and you don't have any caster gear for that slot with hit rating).

I really didn't want to get into this sort of argument which is why I've tried to make it clear I'm looking for others with spreadsheets - all I'm saying is that the spreadsheet I have written shows spellpower to be more valuable than hit rating (at least, it did beforehand and even now doesn't show a large advantage), where this didn't used to be the case in TBC, so I'm curious if anyone else has a spreadsheet which shows a similar thing. Perhaps my thread title is a bit misleading - my apologies if that's the case...

[Spots]

Well, I think you have truely missed the point of capping your hit. I will do my best to expain it (not sure if you are familuar with raiding).

For most (if not all) classes hit rating is important. Your effecincey is dependent on it. Keeping FF and IS up on the target is important. If those are resisted do to "hit" rating to low then that subtracts the amount of time you are casting DPS spells. Yes in disregarding your hit rating, your personal DPS my have risen. however you have hurt the other 8 or 15 of the other DPSers because you debuffs where not up. Thats what makes hit ratings more important then actual SP or AP.

Take a rogue or fury warrior for example. They need like 900 hit to reach thier cap. They will never hit that. However if they hit their "soft" cap for special abilities I.E. Kick, then they stop that heal or fireball from the boss from getting off and wiping the raid. Sure the rogue could sacrafice all that hit for AP but then they would be useless for their utilities.

I could go on and try and explain all the other classes, but hopefully you understand. Yes spread sheets may show that SP or AP scales better then HIT, but IMO (and most other high end raiding guilds) hit is more important when starting raid then AP or SP.

A nice post that actually says.....not so much.

Why is hitrating so highly valued?

Well very simple. Each hitrating you gather will improve the effectiveness of your haste, your crit and your spellpower.
With 0 hitrating, these 3 will have an effectiveness of 83% (100 - 17%)
So basically for each spellpower you gather you can only use 0.83 of it. When hitcapped you will use it to it's fullportential.

Hitrating is the only stats that has such a great effect.
If you are not hitcapped, you cannot compare the stats using their full potential.

I don't know how your spreadsheet is built, but I'm pretty sure you can't just compare hitrating to one other stats. you need to compare it to every stats it affects.

[Apostolic]

Yes I understand the point of capping your hit and am familiar with raiding.

Only if you are required to keep them up due to your raid composition. Remember that similar buffs don't stack anymore.

That's a little different - the impact of a kick will certainly be noticed, generally because spells that can be kicked almost certainly need to be kicked otherwise the raid takes craploads more damage. If you're also familiar with raiding you'll know that unexpected damage will kill a raid a hell of a lot more often than a fraction less DPS (even if you are required to keep FF up then you can't honestly tell me that a miss causing it to be off for 1.5s (less with haste) 'til you next cast it is going to wipe the raid, and given IS is only a chance to miss then it can't be considered 'unexpected damage' if the boss lands a hit in that time).

Yes, I understand that. Having misses can also throw off your rotation which may lead to further DPS losses and I agree that as a caster getting hit capped is almost certainly the first thing you should do (I say almost because I'm sure we both agree that it's pretty stupid to take rogue gear simply because it has 16 hit rating on it and you don't have any caster gear for that slot with hit rating).

I really didn't want to get into this sort of argument which is why I've tried to make it clear I'm looking for others with spreadsheets - all I'm saying is that the spreadsheet I have written shows spellpower to be more valuable than hit rating (at least, it did beforehand and even now doesn't show a large advantage), where this didn't used to be the case in TBC, so I'm curious if anyone else has a spreadsheet which shows a similar thing. Perhaps my thread title is a bit misleading - my apologies if that's the case...

Sorry, I was being more general without breaking out numbers. Was trying to keep it simple being that there are quite a number of new people entering the game (ones that have never played an MMORPG). I kinda leave the numbers game up to elitist jerks. They seem to have more time on their hands.

[Degrador]

I don't know how your spreadsheet is built, but I'm pretty sure you can't just compare hitrating to one other stats. you need to compare it to every stats it affects.

Basically the spreadsheet is built to simulate a rotation and calculate exactly how much DPS increasing each stat will give. So when I say the values are 0.8 or whatever, that means that increasing that stat by 1 will increase overall DPS by 0.8. So I realise it affects all stats and my spreadsheet already handles that, it's just that the results aren't actually showing what you would normally expect - that hit rating is the best stat to increase your DPS by a long way.

That should be the mistake setting your results off. Combatratings equal 1 item value point per rating, while 1 spellpower costs only .857 (6/7) according to wowwiki.

If anything that would make it even further out of expected, because it means that you will get more SP per item value point meaning it's even better for DPS.

Sorry, I was being more general without breaking out numbers. Was trying to keep it simple being that there are quite a number of new people entering the game (ones that have never played an MMORPG).

Well I'm sorry, I guess I did over-react a little bit. Just frustrated me that you didn't answer the question I asked (about stat values calculated from spreadsheets) but instead went on to make me look like the idiot...

I kinda leave the numbers game up to elitist jerks. They seem to have more time on their hands.

Yeah, maybe I should take the question there - probably more people using spreadsheets on those forums.

[Mikki]

Basically the spreadsheet is built to simulate a rotation and calculate exactly how much DPS increasing each stat will give. So when I say the values are 0.8 or whatever, that means that increasing that stat by 1 will increase overall DPS by 0.8. So I realise it affects all stats and my spreadsheet already handles that, it's just that the results aren't actually showing what you would normally expect - that hit rating is the best stat to increase your DPS by a long way.

If anything that would make it even further out of expected, because it means that you will get more SP per item value point meaning it's even better for DPS.

Well I'm sorry, I guess I did over-react a little bit. Just frustrated me that you didn't answer the question I asked (about stat values calculated from spreadsheets) but instead went on to make me look like the idiot...

Yeah, maybe I should take the question there - probably more people using spreadsheets on those forums.

ok. The man wants figures not theory. I have been to MaxDPS.com and run your stats through it. It still says +10hit rating is worth more than +10 Spellpower. It also allows you to check DPS on various specs and rotations as well as calcutating what +10 Hit, Crit, Haste & SP would do for you overall DPS.

Hope that helps.

[Degrador]

ok. The man wants figures not theory. I have been to MaxDPS.com and run your stats through it. It still says +10hit rating is worth more than +10 Spellpower. It also allows you to check DPS on various specs and rotations as well as calcutating what +10 Hit, Crit, Haste & SP would do for you overall DPS.

Hope that helps.

Thanks for that, but unfortunately MaxDPS.com still hasn't updated the Balance stuff for WOTLK yet (you'll notice the spells are still level 70 versions, gems are still level 70 ones, etc.). Still, I did notice that in the +10 stat comparisons if you multiply SP by 1.2 to get an equivalent gem, it's actually really close to the value for +10 Hit Rating.

[Ntrails]

Simple maths.
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Bored, so:

I have no idea of the average cast time of your main spells but I'll go with a single unhasted GCD for example.

Say 2000 DPS - easily achieved in levelling gear for a caster I believe.

Now, from that point. Every missed spell costs 2000*1.5 dmg. 3000. If it takes 27 points of spell hit (over estimate) for 1% miss. Then you'll get 3000/(27*100) = 1.11 DPS for each point of spell hit taken at 2000 DPS.

I have no idea what 1 +spell is worth to all classes nowadays - but I doubt it beats that. Let alone that a 2.5 second cast main spell would increase hits' value by 2/3. Any increase in DPS also boosts the value of hit proportionately.


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Copied and pasted from another time someone asked similar.

Put simply - if you do shitty DPS hit is not very valuable, and with very low Sp/crit they might well value higher than hit. Not once you start to do real damage. In raids it seems 2.5k DPS is farily average in caster lines, So would be 1.35DPS per point hit roughly.

Anyhow, simple logic might help.

[Degrador]

When weaving in gear that is currently in reach a full tool could even lead to a gear-up-plan. I did this for lvl70, and by that I never wasted a DKP point on something I replaced shortly after, or where I was uncertain if it was a definite and notable upgrade. This is a nice way to not waste gear other guild mates could put to good use on top of ones own benefit of saving DKP, so it is still worth it if you're not using a point system at all.

Yeah, this is exactly what my spreadsheet is designed to do. I'm currently in works of converting it into a program that will be a lot more sophisticated, but it's going to take a long time to get there I'd say.

There is still a huge amount of moonkins out there that think crit is their best friend. Simple logic: It proccs NG, it gives mana back, it proccs Eclipse, so a MK has to be crit-centered. Following this approach, most MKs waste a considerable amount of damage potential, because they never saw the need to actually calculate it. Simple logic was a really bad advisor here then. (And it isn't s.th. I made up. Saw it numerous times, ingame and forums.)

Yeah, great example. You still see plenty of posts on these forums for people suggesting moonkins should go for crit when it just isn't that valuable a stat to go for.

I think I may not have made my intentions clear in my first post though. I wasn't so much suggesting that people should go for one stat or another, or trying to change other people's views in any way at all. I just found the curiousity that my spreadsheet was now showing a lower DPS value for Hit Rating over Spellpower (which I later found an issue with and corrected, but they were still closer than expected) and wanted to know if anyone else had noticed this curiousity.

Anyway, enough of this. It's making me lament that my guild needs me to be resto for now instead of blasting the crap out of stuff. Even the guild's ret pally is upset now that he doesn't have anyone to compete with (the other DPS are new to the guild and aren't 80 yet). QQ.