Wintergrasp Tenacity

[Littlenino]

Either zerg the main gate, or hold the main gate and zerg the workshops; whoever has an actual strategy wins......

fixt

[EzriEU]

Why not limit the amount of players so no team can outnumber the other (maybe set difference at 5 ppl) and remove tenacity.

Because, as Gravlax has already stated, this would turn WG into yet another BG and furthermore limit the number of players "eligible" to complete their WG quest. The whole purpose of WG was to not have the number of players limited to begin with.

That's the whole point! WG was designed to be an open PvP zone, where smaller skirmishes went on even when the actual battle for the Keep was finished. That's why resource nodes were put there, that's why it became the best place to farm for Primals (now: Eternals), just like the good old Plateau in Nagrand. Those of you who are used to PvP realms maybe can't imagine what a deserted place the region around the Throne of the Elements was on a PvE realm. Don't get me wrong - there's nothing wrong with that, but WG was intended as an effort on Blizzards behalf to make open PvP happen again.

The concept just backfired, because they underestimated two things: First, the player's tendency to maximise efficiency and to weigh the average honor gain against gameplay and fun. From that perspective, WG became uninteresting as soon as you actually cared about strategy and separated yourself from the main zerg. It was (and to a lesser extend still is) hands down more efficient to stay as close together as possible and thus get as manny HKs as possible.
Second, the actual population imbalance on most realms and the impact on WG gameplay. Tenacity was a step in the right direction, but the whole concept is far too inflexible to work in any given situation. Honestly, though, given how WoW works and how PvP battles develop, I don't have a better idea either. That's why I completely agree with all the fixes they've made so far to at least get WG and its benefits accessible even to an outnumbered faction some of the time.

[amk]

Tenacity works to a degree, but I think it should have a hard cap to it. If your faction is so drastically outnumbered in WG, then either you need to rally members of your faction and get them to participate in WG, or Blizzard has to open free Xfers to your server for your faction, and boost the population.

Dying to a 12k Frost Shock crit while 'riding' away from a Shaman with 12 stacks of the buff cannot be what the developers intended when they engineered Tenacity.

[Deralte]

Tenacity (10): Makes you immune to crwd control effects.

[Palamedic]

Personally, make it a "server situation" buff/nerf for Tenacity. It works for some servers, but it isn't enough for others (as some people mentioned above), while adding in differnet kinds of buffs to balance the situation.

I don't know how Blizz would figure out the right number for each server or, but I'm just throwing this idea in the air.

[marzix]

tenacity is completely broken. on my server during peak times horde has a tenacity stack of 6-10 usually and we dont stand a chance. 6-10 stack with 60 horde, unless we were one-shotting, it wouldnt make a difference. as a survival hunter getting 6k crits on explosive shot ticks, i still cant kill a druid before im overwhelmed and killed. doesnt help that theres more alliance pallies on our server than total horde in wintergrasp so lots of bubbles and lots of stuns being thrown around.

we have all 40 of the people trying to get into the doors and we never can destroy any walls because the sheer number of alliance destroy the vehicles outside the fortress before we get there. in addition to the other 20 or so alliance taking the other siege workshops and destroying the towers with maybe 2-3 defending them not standing a chance. even if we manage to defend our siege shops enough to break down an outer wall or 2, no amount of tenacity can allow 60 people to kill over 200 sitting at the gate to the hold.

imo, tenacity x5 should be enough to 1 shot anyone if you are in a vehicle.

and trying to defend that is even worse. they can bring 75% of their team against our full team at the front gate and we can barely hold them off. but then they got people on every wall and tower in the base and can get in from all sides yet alone destroy towers or take out the machine shops outside the keep. horde probably defends it successfully maybe 25% of the time on my server and all at like... 2am-6am times.

[Bananengurke]

bear druid 90k hp, health regeneration is increased by 100% or something
so he basically can stand there and heal himself without doing anything

ret pally and druid against 20-30 alliance... fun times..NOT

[Sarevokcz]

Just had my first experience with tenacity buff stacking..

People with 10+ stacks need a freaking 5-man party to kill.

I even fought a SHADOW priest, and she was healing to kill all the time while dealing 4k-5k hits with mind blast and SW.. I'm even afraid to check how high her DoTs ticked..
it was freaking insane, needs a nerf for sure..

haha that reminded me of warlock, who managed to pop corruption on me, while i was running away on mount, seconds later i saw only 3,9k 3,9k 3,9k... was barely able to outheal it as ele, used like 12k mana just to survive 1 single dot

bear druid 90k hp, health regeneration is increased by 100% or something
so he basically can stand there and heal himself without doing anything

ret pally and druid against 20-30 alliance... fun times..NOT

well, i saw druid with 240k in bear, most likely with his "last stand", but still, pretty impressive, when he was being heald by 3 healers and was swiping for god knows how many thousands of damage

[Deleted]

Wintergrasp will never work properly on most realms, since (at least in Europe) almost all of them have a considerable faction imbalance. This usually favors the Alliance, but there's also realms with a Horde overpopulation. In the end it boils down to statistics and not Blizzard favoritism.

PvE realm populations have something like 65 ally - 35 horde ratio. Activity difference is even greater. But most PvP realms in turn favor the horde.

And yes, Tenacity is ridiculously broken when a rogue can in 3 seconds FoK to death the 10 people needed to kill him even if he'd be standing still.

[Annihilator]

Guess it depends on how high the stacks are since on Silvermoon EU Alliance outnumber horde with a ratio of 99/1 or something. So Tenacity for horde is always at cap 20 stack. And they still dont
stand a chance. A bit sad to see really. Always end up with Alliance with 5 full raids ganking, if its a good day, a full party of brave hordes. It have happend when horde managed to gather up and get a workshop that they get 5-6 sieges with 500-600k hp each to go straight thru every wall in a minute but even then if just the Alliance notice this in time they can easy take em out with the sick numbers they have to their disposal

[Surfd]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know the actual formula for determining how many stacks of tenacity a side gets?

[Xucuroz]

I don't know what Wintergrasp is like on other servers but on mine, the faction with Tenacity always wins. Yeah there is a slight faction imbalance (it evens out a lot during prime time and i again think this is the case with most servers) but its really sad when you can have a single person running around 2 shotting people, with absurdly high health (its not uncommon to see people with 50k-70k health or more). I'm sure we've all got tales to tell about the DK who soloed 10 people for example.

How would i fix it? Remove Tenacity and give the faction with less numbers an easier time taking down walls, so if they are on attack the walls would have a lot less health, siege vehicles would have more health. If they are on defence, walls would have more health and attackers siege vehicles would have less health.

[Fpsmike1]

Dam on Cenarius the horde always have a tenacity buff, and lets just say when u look at the stats for wintergrasp, the alliance have 3-4x the amounts of defensive wins then the horde. i think tenacity needs a buff. if ur losing to ppl with tenacity ur doing something Extremely wrong,
more ppl = more capability to CC/silence/wtvr
so how can u not rock ppl, more numbers means u can be at more places at the same time, making it usually more easier to cap the vehicles stuff. also the vehicles die soo fast when u have a few ppl hitting them, altho it works vice-versa we it can take 1 person to take down a vehicle, but i can do that in almost 10 seconds on my elem shaman w/o tenacity.

Anyway, point is that i think it needs a buff.

[daenerys]

On my server the team with Tenacity loses around 80% of the time. If you only have 1-3 stacks of tenacity it's not powerful enough to make much of a difference compared to the number difference. And if you have 4+ stacks of tenacity, you have so few people by comparison you can't spread out enough to overcome their numbers.

The only time I've seen a team win with tenacity is if a large portion of the team is part of a premade guild group or the team without tenacity is utterly incompetent.

Tenacity needs to be buffed significantly in my opinion.

[xenophob]

On my Realm for each hordeplayer are 1,7-2 allies.
In WG Horde usualy got 2-7 tenacity stacks.

the horde won since first WG
320 in offence, 171 in defense
allies won 319 in offence and 361 in defense
these statistics are provided by blizzard in a logbook close to the entry of VoA

so, based on statistics, tenacity is "ok" and does its job.

[Azharok]

I love having 20 tenacity (happened once) I had 100k hp and would hit for millions of damage, it was funny taking out like 15 players defending a workshop

LOL

too bad I don't have the screen

[BlackZero]

The problem however, is to get the vehicles alive to the fortress. Make Tenacity buff the vehicles, not the bad players running around "Zomg, I r ze demigod".

Lulz

[Gobber]

the problem with tenacity is it doesn't nothing about stuns/interupts/slows etc, which defeats the point of it sometimes, even if you have 10 stack tenacity and therefore 100% or w/e more damage...a paladin uses Hoj and you will sit there in a stun for 6 seconds, chances are you are outnumbered and will therefore die swiftly

tenacity needs a reduction in the dmg and healing increase, and needs to give other bonuses such as reduced stun/silence duration...reduction (or immunity) in the effectiveness of movement imparing effects and other things like that

that would make it quite a bit more balanced imo

[Ordin]

On my Realm for each hordeplayer are 1,7-2 allies.
In WG Horde usualy got 2-7 tenacity stacks.

the horde won since first WG
320 in offence, 171 in defense
allies won 319 in offence and 361 in defense
these statistics are provided by blizzard in a logbook close to the entry of VoA

so, based on statistics, tenacity is "ok" and does its job.

This is pretty comparable to our realm too. Alliance always outnumber the horde so we always go in with 1-5 stacks of tenacity.

Alliance and Horde win about the same amount when on offense, but Alliance win WAY more often on defense.

To me that suggests that tenacity is not enough to overcome a population imbalance when defending, but does an ok job while attacking.

[Aravar]

The Horde population of Vek'nilash US would be very angry if I had Tenacity.