1. #1

    ITEMIZATION FERALS T7

    I didn't know what was the itemization for feral tanks until I started running heroics and dungeons then i saw it clear.

    Leather with high stam, agi, expertise and AP. This is THE gear for feral tanks as i have seen, if someone can add more information would be nice.

    Now if this is the real itemization for bears I am concerned that there are several blues with more agi and stam together than in the T7 gear. (mainly T7 10 man)

    As far I have seen, the T7 for feral druids is not the best for dps or tanking(maybe 50 more armor in some pieces). Even our class is a hybrid and the main point of being the druid is the versatility! Our T7 don't have intellect, so we can throw like 5 maybe 6 big heals and thats it, that if we don't have to shapeshift to get out of a problem.

    If we throw a brez and tranquiity for offhealings we might be caught oom and wont be able to keep dpsing for example.

    I am not saying i want a mana pool like healers that have at east 15k mana, but i mean i have 6k mana with dps gear and the only plus i get for intellect is my mark or some raid buffs that could increased my pool to 8k. Our bigger heals cost more than 1k of mana! our brez the same.

    Now I know that Blizz argue that they wanted to have gear usable for many classes, but T7? I mean the Tier gear is for ONE class, and this set should be the best for our class at least in a way and it is not.




  2. #2

    Re: ITEMIZATION FERALS T7

    do you really want to gimp your tanking/dpsing for healing? I mean if the situation calls for it throw your healing gear on or something because u really shouldn't need to heal 6 times in a row or else your healers fail. I will admit that shape shifting costs WAY to much mana though

  3. #3

    Re: ITEMIZATION FERALS T7

    Some blue items are indeed insane, for example I was saving for T7 gloves & when I got 57 badges I suddenly noticed that my http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44397 blows them out of the water.

    The 6k manapool is more than enough really, you'll only need to rebirth/tranq/buff in combat anyway, save the emergency healing for the caster hybrids. The only thing that needs to change is the manacost of shifting.

  4. #4

    Re: ITEMIZATION FERALS T7

    You are indeed correct at the fact that T7 feral isn't the best for tanking or DPS. The set bonus make them a little bit better. It is also very easy for ferals to become expertise-capped at least in terms of dodge with the current itemization.

    The blues from CoT-Strath will most likely get nerfed. It looks awfully overbudgetted to me.

    edit: in terms of mana constraints. With raid buffs, you should have 9-10k mana even with all the current "Rogue" gear, and that should be enough for a battle rez and/or a couple of small spot heals. If you deplete all that mana quickly, then the raid is going horribly wrong anyway.
    WoTLK made it so every idiot in the world can get raid gear and prove to the world that gear isn't everything.

  5. #5

    Re: ITEMIZATION FERALS T7

    The problem I find with feral itemization is the ridiculous amounts of expertise on everything. I'm currently at 34 expertise in my tanking gear, which is just utterly WASTED. Give some freakin hit already blizz.

    As far as mana goes, we don't really have a problem. I had no problem helping decurse on the 10man Sapph fight, even throwing rejuvs on people and then go back to cat and get some mana back.

  6. #6

    Re: ITEMIZATION FERALS T7

    Quote Originally Posted by rohendar
    The problem I find with feral itemization is the ridiculous amounts of expertise on everything. I'm currently at 34 expertise in my tanking gear, which is just utterly WASTED. Give some freakin hit already blizz.

    As far as mana goes, we don't really have a problem. I had no problem helping decurse on the 10man Sapph fight, even throwing rejuvs on people and then go back to cat and get some mana back.
    Considering parry caps around 11-12%, expertise isn't completely wasted. You can always gem and enchant for hit, or use the more dps oriented leather pieces with hit on them. For hard-hitting bosses, having more expertise to offset Parry-haste isn't a bad thing.
    WoTLK made it so every idiot in the world can get raid gear and prove to the world that gear isn't everything.

  7. #7

    Re: ITEMIZATION FERALS T7

    1) Give me proof parry caps at 12% first. Until then, you can not make any statement. As far as I know, no one has ever been able to set a number on the parry chance of bosses.

    2) Even with parry chance being at 12%, that is ALL expertise does, reduce parry, once you are over the dodge cap (which I am, easily I might add because of the ridiculous amount of gear with expertise).

    3) Once over the dodge cap, hit gives the same threat increase as further expertise does. One reduces misses, the other parries, but in the end, the same amount.

    4) The only benifit of expertise over hit, is that some bosses get swing speed increase on parries. So expertise actually decreases incoming hits, thus less heals needed. HOWEVER, untill you prove nr1, this can not be counted on 100% to give expertise the edge over hit.

    5) Given that you will be using gear for both tanking and dps (especially Tier sets), hit then becomes a lot better. Keep in mind I'm capped for dodge, further expertise doesn't increase dps, hit does.

  8. #8

    Re: ITEMIZATION FERALS T7

    Quote Originally Posted by rohendar
    1) Give me proof parry caps at 12% first. Until then, you can not make any statement. As far as I know, no one has ever been able to set a number on the parry chance of bosses.

    2) Even with parry chance being at 12%, that is ALL expertise does, reduce parry, once you are over the dodge cap (which I am, easily I might add because of the ridiculous amount of gear with expertise).

    3) Once over the dodge cap, hit gives the same threat increase as further expertise does. One reduces misses, the other parries, but in the end, the same amount.

    4) The only benifit of expertise over hit, is that some bosses get swing speed increase on parries. So expertise actually decreases incoming hits, thus less heals needed. HOWEVER, untill you prove nr1, this can not be counted on 100% to give expertise the edge over hit.

    5) Given that you will be using gear for both tanking and dps (especially Tier sets), hit then becomes a lot better. Keep in mind I'm capped for dodge, further expertise doesn't increase dps, hit does.
    http://www.stevensaysno.com/dummytest.jpg

    This is the test done by Anirul of Shadowsong by attacking a level Boss target dummy from the front with all of his gear off but with primal precision, which is 10 expertise, or -2.5% to dodge/parry. This is a 9 hour test and it concludes that bosses have 4.0+2.5=6.5% dodge (which was agreed upon) and 11.4+2.5%= 13.9% parry. Is 9 hours significant enough statistically? you decide. The number is good enough for me after looking at various WWS logs as well. Parry is well over 10%, that is for sure.

    As for a qualitative test: you can leave your character on auto attack for target dummy overnight, if you get ANY parry, then your expertise isn't wasted, in terms of tanking.

    As for DPS, yes, overflowing expertise sucks, but nobody is going to get perfect itemization this early in the game. Blizzard has proved in Naxx60 and Sunwell that they know how to design good gear, but just chose not to in early expansions.

    Finally, I am not disagreeing with you that hit is as good, if not better than expertise, past the dodge value since it benefits DPS and also spells such as taunt. However, it is often easy to ignore the effect it still has on Parry and Parry haste, which is a tank's number 1 priority: staying alive.

    edit: if you're a true min-max person, and if loots are available after your other leather-wearers get gear, then you will be using none of your tier pieces for DPS, because none of them are best-in-slot.
    WoTLK made it so every idiot in the world can get raid gear and prove to the world that gear isn't everything.

  9. #9

    Re: ITEMIZATION FERALS T7

    Quote Originally Posted by rohendar
    4) The only benifit of expertise over hit, is that some bosses get swing speed increase on parries.
    Not some but most bosses and trash mobs. See this blue post:
    http://blue.mmo-champion.com/12/1312...t-removed.html

  10. #10

    Re: ITEMIZATION FERALS T7

    I'm a Protadin, I don't shift, all my threat comes from my mana.. and you know what?

    I have a base mana pool.

    I tank Naxx, Archavon, Sartharion with drakes up.. With a Base mana pool, I'm a full hybrid and I call for versatility when healing myself.. but honestly?

    I get along fine.

    Unless situations call for you to rebirth or innervate, there should never be a time where mana enters the picture.

  11. #11

    Re: ITEMIZATION FERALS T7

    Quote Originally Posted by Slizarus
    I'm a Protadin, I don't shift, all my threat comes from my mana.. and you know what?

    I have a base mana pool.

    I tank Naxx, Archavon, Sartharion with drakes up.. With a Base mana pool, I'm a full hybrid and I call for versatility when healing myself.. but honestly?

    I get along fine.

    Unless situations call for you to rebirth or innervate, there should never be a time where mana enters the picture.
    You get 10% of hp healed as mana via spiritual attunement
    You get 2% of mana restored whenever you dodge/parry/block through BoSanct

    Saying that your mana pool will be fine versus a feral's mana pool will be fine is comparing apples and oranges. While in this specific case, I agree with you on the fact that feral mana pool at the moment is OK. Comparing two very distinct class is pretty pointless.
    WoTLK made it so every idiot in the world can get raid gear and prove to the world that gear isn't everything.

  12. #12

    Re: ITEMIZATION FERALS T7

    Idd, i've never seen since preXPAC a Protadin running out of mana while tanking.
    That 2% mana while you dodge, parry, etc, its indeed the key.


  13. #13

    Re: ITEMIZATION FERALS T7

    Even our class is a hybrid and the main point of being the druid is the versatility! Our T7 don't have intellect, so we can throw like 5 maybe 6 big heals and thats it, that if we don't have to shapeshift to get out of a problem.

    If we throw a brez and tranquiity for offhealings we might be caught oom and wont be able to keep dpsing for example.
    I dare to deny this part.

    Druids are, for construction, shapeshifters. We turn into a specific role to cover that very spot. Whatever that role is, depends on the spec.

    That said, assuming that feral druids are a melee/healer hybrid is wrong. The hybridism in the feral tree lies within tanking and dpsing.
    We will not forget neither Rebirth, nor Innervate, because we are druids. We have plenty of mana for both of those abilities.
    We can occasionally throw a heal, most likely on ourselves to ease the pressure on healers or on a healer particularly low on health. Occasional is the keyword. We have mana for a regrowth each time Najentus (forgive me for an old example, but it fits) has his shield broken. Improved Leader of the Pack makes up for that.

    If the occasional heal is sending you oom to the point of not being able to shapeshift, you're not doing it ocasionally. And you're playing your spec wrongly.
    If we choose to be ferals, we choose to be tanks and dps (one being stronger than the other, depending on our focus), but not to be offhealers.

    Learning to trust your healers to the point that your Regrowth is, in truth, occasional, is a part of the raider's skills.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qieth
    I don't do math, blind assumptions work so much better for me.

  14. #14
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    Re: ITEMIZATION FERALS T7

    Quote Originally Posted by Avermra
    You get 10% of hp healed as mana via spiritual attunement
    You get 2% of mana restored whenever you dodge/parry/block through BoSanct

    Saying that your mana pool will be fine versus a feral's mana pool will be fine is comparing apples and oranges. While in this specific case, I agree with you on the fact that feral mana pool at the moment is OK. Comparing two very distinct class is pretty pointless.
    And you (we) get 8% mana back every 6 seconds if we crit. That means that you'll regen a full mana bar in 75 seconds. If you have to shift out and heal more than once each minute, then something is up with your raid.

    Would you rather lose some stamina to get some int? Heck, you can enchant and gem int for all i care, but its stupid. You dont need it, and while you cant heal a maintank, you can still switch out, pop a ress and maybe a heal, and switch back.
    ~ Armory - Youtube ~
    No longer the King of Moonkins, but perhaps the Prince of Shamans?

  15. #15

    Re: ITEMIZATION FERALS T7

    If as a feral druid * I presume dps if your swapping forms* you have to do any more then rebirth / inervate *which in itself means something has already gone wrong* then you have bigger issues then your own mana pool. As it stands on the mana issue feral mana is quite fine.

  16. #16

    Re: ITEMIZATION FERALS T7

    Quote Originally Posted by Avermra
    You are indeed correct at the fact that T7 feral isn't the best for tanking or DPS. The set bonus make them a little bit better. It is also very easy for ferals to become expertise-capped at least in terms of dodge with the current itemization.

    The blues from CoT-Strath will most likely get nerfed. It looks awfully overbudgetted to me.

    edit: in terms of mana constraints. With raid buffs, you should have 9-10k mana even with all the current "Rogue" gear, and that should be enough for a battle rez and/or a couple of small spot heals. If you deplete all that mana quickly, then the raid is going horribly wrong anyway.
    i totaly disagree on the tanking and dps stand point. as far as tanking goes it is situational. we are freat tanks still. i mean i have 29.5k HP in bear self buffed and 27k armor. as far as dps, you just have to spec into it. i can push out 3k dps if i am no that day. but i can av. around 2.5k with a few hick-ups. and agan you have 2 diff. specs that you have to do.

  17. #17

    Re: ITEMIZATION FERALS T7

    Quote Originally Posted by rohendar
    The problem I find with feral itemization is the ridiculous amounts of expertise on everything. I'm currently at 34 expertise in my tanking gear, which is just utterly WASTED. Give some freakin hit already blizz.

    As far as mana goes, we don't really have a problem. I had no problem helping decurse on the 10man Sapph fight, even throwing rejuvs on people and then go back to cat and get some mana back.
    actually expertise is our new great stat. more so now than hit. yes you still need hit but expertise is great for tanking on those dps race bosses. if you miss and get dodged on your first two hits it will take you much more time before the dps can go all out. and if you are going to dsp it is great. you get less dodges and misses if you have a mix of the two, therefor you get higher dps.

  18. #18

    Re: ITEMIZATION FERALS T7

    Quote Originally Posted by rohendar
    1) Give me proof parry caps at 12% first. Until then, you can not make any statement. As far as I know, no one has ever been able to set a number on the parry chance of bosses.

    2) Even with parry chance being at 12%, that is ALL expertise does, reduce parry, once you are over the dodge cap (which I am, easily I might add because of the ridiculous amount of gear with expertise).

    3) Once over the dodge cap, hit gives the same threat increase as further expertise does. One reduces misses, the other parries, but in the end, the same amount.

    4) The only benifit of expertise over hit, is that some bosses get swing speed increase on parries. So expertise actually decreases incoming hits, thus less heals needed. HOWEVER, untill you prove nr1, this can not be counted on 100% to give expertise the edge over hit.

    5) Given that you will be using gear for both tanking and dps (especially Tier sets), hit then becomes a lot better. Keep in mind I'm capped for dodge, further expertise doesn't increase dps, hit does.

    The 2 most important stats there atm are these:

    Hit Rating
    1 HitRating = 0.030% Hit
    32.79 HitRating = 1% Hit

    Cap vs Level 80 mob = 5% Hit = 163.95 HitRating
    Cap vs Level 81 mob = 5.5% Hit = 180.34 HitRating
    Cap vs Level 82 mob = 6% Hit = 196.74 HitRating
    Cap vs Level 83 mob = 9% Hit = 295.11 HitRating (Raid Bosses)

    Expertise Rating
    1 ExpertiseRating = 0.030% reduction in dodge & parry chance
    32.79 ExpertiseRating = 1% reduction in dodge & parry chance

    Cap vs Level 80 mob = 5%(Dodge) / ?%(Parry) = 163.95 / ? ExpertiseRating
    Cap vs Level 81 mob = 5.5%(Dodge) / ?%(Parry) = 180.34 / ? ExpertiseRating
    Cap vs Level 82 mob = 6%(Dodge) / ?%(Parry) = 196.74 / ? ExpertiseRating
    Cap vs Level 83 mob = 6.5%(Dodge) / 15%(Parry) = 213.13 / 491.85 ExpertiseRating (Raid Bosses)


    This means if you can get 296 hit rating, along with 492 expertise, while keeping about 60 percent mitigation and 40 percent dodge, you will be a great bear tank.

    It also means if you can get 296 hit rating + about 45 percent crit + about 10k ap (after Savage Roar), you will be a mean mother fucker against bosses.


    Now to put together rawr builds and make our sets and prioritize

  19. #19

    Re: ITEMIZATION FERALS T7

    i've got both blue H UK staff and epic H VH staff and i'm gonna be using the blue till patch, 700armour is massive.
    And yeh i aint upgrading to T7 gloves for a while though i have the token, as my blue from Strath OWNS them bad.


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