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  1. #21

    Re: cap on spell power?

    This question can only be answered by modeling the optimal dps rotations using your current stats, then measuring the marginal increase in dps per additional stat point.

    Any generalizations that do not involve this kind of concrete analysis are purely conjecture.

  2. #22

    Re: cap on spell power?

    Quote Originally Posted by underdogba
    This question can only be answered by modeling the optimal dps rotations using your current stats, then measuring the marginal increase in dps per additional stat point.

    Any generalizations that do not involve this kind of concrete analysis are purely conjecture.
    Not conjecture..when I have done it. Try it out test...let me know the results...because so far all you have is theory which is much different from fact.

    Have a nice day.

  3. #23

    Re: cap on spell power?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sykk
    Your all far away from it atm anyway, wait for moar patches and instances and Tiers before you start thinking about it!
    Not true. Already have done raids in wotlk thus yes you do need some hit. So it is still relevant. THINK ABOUT THAT!

    Have a nice day

  4. #24

    Re: cap on spell power?

    I throw a disclaimer here, maybe I'm retarded....

    I've looked over spell hit gear lists, and the items that keep popping up are signifigantly lower on ilvl or all other stats. Example would be a weapon with 30 hit rating dropping about 150 spellpower, as well as huge loses in crit and hast and all other stats. I'm sure hit probably has a higher item cost, due to it's effectiveness. I def understand the importance of hit, however except for 3 badge items and a few blues I already have I don't see how it is really possible to get close to hit capped pre naxx without losing a TON of spellpower and still not breaking 350-400 hit rating. I just can't figure out how people are pulling out getting hit capped already. Maybe I've been unlucky with the rng or I'm over looking some major item, I just can't find enough hit to get me out of the crap hit rating i'm currently at.

  5. #25
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    Re: cap on spell power?

    @Muhafalon: You managed to see exactly what i was saying - iLVL of gear.

    @Zuxia: "I have climbed Mt. Everest. Therefore I know that packing better food is more important than warm clothing." - I have no proof of this, I have no photos, and none of my companions are here to validate my claims.

    What I want from you: Armory of you, armory of said "bad dps'ers" and a screen shot of a "Damage Done" meter, localized to a single boss, trash excluded.

    Until then, I see what you're trying to say, but this just doesn't apply to warlocks. At all. Mages, yes. Shamans, yes. Warlocks, no.

    R.I.P. YARG

  6. #26

    Re: cap on spell power?

    Quote Originally Posted by gherkin
    @Muhafalon: You managed to see exactly what i was saying - iLVL of gear.

    @Zuxia: "I have climbed Mt. Everest. Therefore I know that packing better food is more important than warm clothing." - I have no proof of this, I have no photos, and none of my companions are here to validate my claims.

    What I want from you: Armory of you, armory of said "bad dps'ers" and a screen shot of a "Damage Done" meter, localized to a single boss, trash excluded.

    Until then, I see what you're trying to say, but this just doesn't apply to warlocks. At all. Mages, yes. Shamans, yes. Warlocks, no.
    First...You can look me up under Zuxia on Hyjal
    Second...I don't keep a list of bad dps'ers.
    Third...I can take screen shot of Damage Meter
    Fourth...Can't guarantee there will be another lock in the raid.

  7. #27
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    Re: cap on spell power?

    For this dps meter, can you do me a favor? Hopefully you have a haste trinket somewhere

    Hit up a Boss training dummy and do the following:

    Dps straight out from 0-40s then take the screenshot of your dps.
    Then swap a haste trinket in and use it and dps straight out from 0-40s and screenshot again.

    Every indication shows haste as a point for point better than crit, but I personally don't believe it.

    R.I.P. YARG

  8. #28

    Re: cap on spell power?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muhafalon
    I throw a disclaimer here, maybe I'm retarded....

    I've looked over spell hit gear lists, and the items that keep popping up are signifigantly lower on ilvl or all other stats. Example would be a weapon with 30 hit rating dropping about 150 spellpower, as well as huge loses in crit and hast and all other stats. I'm sure hit probably has a higher item cost, due to it's effectiveness. I def understand the importance of hit, however except for 3 badge items and a few blues I already have I don't see how it is really possible to get close to hit capped pre naxx without losing a TON of spellpower and still not breaking 350-400 hit rating. I just can't figure out how people are pulling out getting hit capped already. Maybe I've been unlucky with the rng or I'm over looking some major item, I just can't find enough hit to get me out of the crap hit rating i'm currently at.
    Actually its easy to get hit capped with a gimp in overall spell power, crit, and hit. However with the right farming it can be done...personally seen the sheet of a lock with 386 hit, 27% crit and 245 or so haste. Till you can get to that personally you are better off searching for a balance.

  9. #29

    Re: cap on spell power?

    Quote Originally Posted by gherkin
    For this dps meter, can you do me a favor? Hopefully you have a haste trinket somewhere

    Hit up a Boss training dummy and do the following:

    Dps straight out from 0-40s then take the screenshot of your dps.
    Then swap a haste trinket in and use it and dps straight out from 0-40s and screenshot again.

    Every indication shows haste as a point for point better than crit, but I personally don't believe it.

    sure I have a haste trinket..not the greatest but it improves it.

  10. #30

    Re: cap on spell power?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muhafalon
    I throw a disclaimer here, maybe I'm retarded....

    I've looked over spell hit gear lists, and the items that keep popping up are signifigantly lower on ilvl or all other stats. Example would be a weapon with 30 hit rating dropping about 150 spellpower, as well as huge loses in crit and hast and all other stats. I'm sure hit probably has a higher item cost, due to it's effectiveness. I def understand the importance of hit, however except for 3 badge items and a few blues I already have I don't see how it is really possible to get close to hit capped pre naxx without losing a TON of spellpower and still not breaking 350-400 hit rating. I just can't figure out how people are pulling out getting hit capped already. Maybe I've been unlucky with the rng or I'm over looking some major item, I just can't find enough hit to get me out of the crap hit rating i'm currently at.
    Sounds like you're talking about trying to get fully hitcapped at 17% when you aren't raiding, which is pointless. And you're right, ditch the weapon. But without raiding naxx, you can get the heroic VH trinket, ebonweave gloves(yes, I know you're losing crit and haste for it, but they can be replaced later), girdle of bane and water drenched robe, that's 260 hit rating from 4 items.

    Ward of the violet citadel and flameheart spellscalpel are rep and badge loot that'll give you 72 hit, 50 crit, and 414 spell dmg, so I'm not sure what weapon it is you have that you'd lose 150 dmg for only 30 hit unless you have turning tide or life and death from 25 man naxx already.

    Obviously you wouldn't want to lose 150 spell power for only 30 hit from weapons, but no one with any sense would ever recommend that.

    If you aren't hitcapped, you probably have no business raiding as that's more important than your crit or haste since what good does it do if your crits and faster casts miss? It's nice when you have the other classes in your raid to drop the hitcap, but you can't always count on that.

    @zuxia

    Looking at your armory page, your gloves, green trinket, weapon, and necklace suck. I can't imagine ever equipping gear with mp5 on it unless it was going to get sharded otherwise, let alone wasting badges on it. Your choice of gems is also odd, being able to benefit from spirit or not, why would you use a 7dmg 6 spirit gem just to get the +4 int bonus when you could have just used a 14, 16, or 19 spell dmg gem for a better dps difference? You still haven't socketed your belt either(which actually is worth blowing the 100g that a buckle was in the AH lastnight)

    Looking at my character sheet, I have no problem being hitcapped, with having decent spell dmg and haste. Yes I'm shorted a bit on crit but I haven't picked up a helm worth enchanting yet, and that's with only 2 pieces of gear that aren't easily obtained with a pug. Mercureo on Hyjal btw if you want to see my character sheet.

  11. #31
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    Re: cap on spell power?

    I have mp5 on a head item because it was going to be sharded and was better than my T6 (which I now use as FR)

    I don't razz on anyone who has an item or two of MP5. But if I see MP5 on more than this, or spirit enchants or mp5 gems, then I know we have a real winner.

    This is not the case here, and thus not worth a mention.

    R.I.P. YARG

  12. #32

    Re: cap on spell power?

    My point was, that saying being hitcapped somehow requires being gimped is wrong, and it doesn't help when you've already made sub-optimal gear/gem choices(badge items don't rely on random drops) in the first place.

  13. #33

    Re: cap on spell power?

    Hit is currently bugged until its fixed I wouldnt try to cap it.

    Sit at 200 Hit before talents and raid buffs... you wont ever miss
    Definition of useless -

    Q. Any plans for an untalented spell to help warlocks deal with stuns?
    A. Possibly. It’s also possible we may take a look at stuns in general. But overall stuns will feel less impacting in an environment where players have significantly more health than they do today.

  14. #34

    Re: cap on spell power?

    Quote Originally Posted by Merc1138
    My point was, that saying being hitcapped somehow requires being gimped is wrong, and it doesn't help when you've already made sub-optimal gear/gem choices(badge items don't rely on random drops) in the first place.

    (THIS PART IS FROM SAME AUTHOR DIFFERENT POST, THIS THREAD)
    @zuxia

    Looking at your armory page, your gloves, green trinket, weapon, and necklace suck. I can't imagine ever equipping gear with mp5 on it unless it was going to get sharded otherwise, let alone wasting badges on it. Your choice of gems is also odd, being able to benefit from spirit or not, why would you use a 7dmg 6 spirit gem just to get the +4 int bonus when you could have just used a 14, 16, or 19 spell dmg gem for a better dps difference? You still haven't socketed your belt either(which actually is worth blowing the 100g that a buckle was in the AH lastnight)

    Looking at my character sheet, I have no problem being hitcapped, with having decent spell dmg and haste. Yes I'm shorted a bit on crit but I haven't picked up a helm worth enchanting yet, and that's with only 2 pieces of gear that aren't easily obtained with a pug. Mercureo on Hyjal btw if you want to see my character sheet.
    1st...You should get some more information before you knock someone's gear.
    Here are some facts about the gear, just to make you look ignorant: The neclace was chosen for crit not mp5...if you want to discredit someone make sure you present all the facts.
    The gem was a freebie, hadn't spent the money to upgrade it. Who else wants a gem for free that gives a little extra spell damage while they are in the middle of upgrading equipment.
    Not exalted with Kirin Tor either..but wait..thats the rep im working on for guess what..the exact weapon you have.
    As far as the other comments about gear...that is your opinon...main difference between my and yours is not only level which is part due to being in a hard core raiding guild, where my guild raids but not like yours does.


    Now see what happens when you don't ask for information...you look foolish.

  15. #35

    Re: cap on spell power?

    Quote Originally Posted by gherkin
    For this dps meter, can you do me a favor? Hopefully you have a haste trinket somewhere

    Hit up a Boss training dummy and do the following:

    Dps straight out from 0-40s then take the screenshot of your dps.
    Then swap a haste trinket in and use it and dps straight out from 0-40s and screenshot again.

    Every indication shows haste as a point for point better than crit, but I personally don't believe it.
    This is why we use spreadsheets. A 40 second test doesn't mean crap. If you want to test it for 24 hrs straight, go right ahead.

    edit: I say 24 hrs but I just pulled that outta my butt. I have no idea what length of time you need to test to compensate for standard deviation but you get the idea.

  16. #36

    Re: cap on spell power?

    Quote Originally Posted by geonexus
    so the moral is GET YOUR HIT UP DONT RELY ON SOMEBODY ELSE TO DO YOUR JOB FOR YOU!!!! that is all.
    That's wasting dps. Simply get 2 set of gear for both possibilities, use the lower hit when the sp/moonkin is present and the mecanics of the fight do not enforce a high possibility of early death (things like Teron or Azgalor) or too much running around (Archimonde). If they do, get your max hit set out.
    Always using it however is screwing you out of a few percent of dmg/crit/haste for no good reason.

    I mean it's as if i said : i don't rely on healers to top me up after life tap or taking whatever damage from the boss, i use bandages and drain life ! There are a few situations where this is indeed applicable, but most of the times it's simply the healers role to do that, and doing it yourself is only doing a disservice to the raid.

  17. #37

    Re: cap on spell power?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobimus
    This is why we use spreadsheets. A 40 second test doesn't mean crap. If you want to test it for 24 hrs straight, go right ahead.

    edit: I say 24 hrs but I just pulled that outta my butt. I have no idea what length of time you need to test to compensate for standard deviation but you get the idea.
    Which spread sheet are you using? Only asking because there are many that are incorrect, this was discussed at warlocks den.

  18. #38

    Re: cap on spell power?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobimus
    This is why we use spreadsheets. A 40 second test doesn't mean crap. If you want to test it for 24 hrs straight, go right ahead.

    edit: I say 24 hrs but I just pulled that outta my butt. I have no idea what length of time you need to test to compensate for standard deviation but you get the idea.
    Personal standpoint...5 min straight dps would be ok indication as most boss fights will last that long.

    Also, the longer peroid of time the more useful haste is. (depending on mana)

  19. #39

    Re: cap on spell power?

    Quote Originally Posted by TerryBogard
    Hit is currently bugged until its fixed I wouldnt try to cap it.

    Sit at 200 Hit before talents and raid buffs... you wont ever miss
    this is wrong , im aossry to say so... i tested it myself and i got resists , recount dosent pick them up but wws does.
    http://eonguild.powerguild.net/forum.htm

    Quote Originally Posted by Healingprick
    They should add an Diminish on Return on QQ's

  20. #40

    Re: cap on spell power?

    Quote Originally Posted by zuxia
    1st...You should get some more information before you knock someone's gear.
    Here are some facts about the gear, just to make you look ignorant: The neclace was chosen for crit not mp5...if you want to discredit someone make sure you present all the facts.
    The gem was a freebie, hadn't spent the money to upgrade it. Who else wants a gem for free that gives a little extra spell damage while they are in the middle of upgrading equipment.
    Not exalted with Kirin Tor either..but wait..thats the rep im working on for guess what..the exact weapon you have.
    As far as the other comments about gear...that is your opinon...main difference between my and yours is not only level which is part due to being in a hard core raiding guild, where my guild raids but not like yours does.


    Now see what happens when you don't ask for information...you look foolish.
    It pains me to say it, because I was actually rather sympathetic to your balance your stats argument.

    Any warlock that picks that necklace over the dps caster one is a dunce.

    No way that 34 crit is worth 12 stamina, 34 spirit and 25 hit.

    The spirit alone would give a warlock with your spec 13 extra spellpower.

    That's ignoring the extra mana you get back from the extra spirit etc etc etc.. (from Life Tap, not from regen).

    The fact that you're defending it with: "The necklace was chosen for it's crit" goes to prove that really you shouldn't make any statements about the relative worth of stats.


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