cap on spell power?

[zuxia]

It pains me to say it, because I was actually rather sympathetic to your balance your stats argument.

Any warlock that picks that necklace over the dps caster one is a dunce.

No way that 34 crit is worth 12 stamina, 34 spirit and 25 hit.

The spirit alone would give a warlock with your spec 13 extra spellpower.

That's ignoring the extra mana you get back from the extra spirit etc etc etc.. (from Life Tap, not from regen).

The fact that you're defending it with: "The necklace was chosen for it's crit" goes to prove that really you shouldn't make any statements about the relative worth of stats.

Actually you are the dunce in calling me one...at the time I needed the crit, so I chose the best item at the time, uh destro locks do need crit and at the time I needed crit. SO HERE AGAIN ITS LOOKING AFTER BALANCE, at the time I had plenty of spell power for 1, and 2 items can be replaced that is the point of upgrading
Sure have to run instances again but so what I am enchanter so more opportunities for enchanting mats.

So again maybe ask for information before you assume anything we all know what assuming does and you did it.

Last I checked it was still a caster item dps item, you need to be more specific here.

[Deleted]

Personal standpoint...5 min straight dps would be ok indication as most boss fights will last that long.

Also, the longer peroid of time the more useful haste is. (depending on mana)

No. Because 5 minutes is something like 100 casts (ballpark, let's suppose you cast 1 spell every 2s) and that is not a statistically meaningfull sample. On 100 casts, you might get 0 misses despite being at 5% from the cap or have 10. With 33% crit you could get 50 crits or 20. Deriving any universal truth from that is misunderstanding how probabilities work and what theorycraft models tell you (under what assumption they work and the range of validity of the conclusions they provide).

[Merc1138]

Actually you are the dunce in calling me one...at the time I needed the crit, so I chose the best item at the time, uh destro locks do need crit and at the time I needed crit. SO HERE AGAIN ITS LOOKING AFTER BALANCE, at the time I had plenty of spell power for 1, and 2 items can be replaced that is the point of upgrading
Sure have to run instances again but so what I am enchanter so more opportunities for enchanting mats.

So again maybe ask for information before you assume anything we all know what assuming does and you did it.

Last I checked it was still a caster item dps item, you need to be more specific here.

What balance? Any raider will tell you that you NEED to be hitcapped. If you are not hitcapped, there is no point in taking you on a raid. And thank you for proving my point that you don't know what you're talking about. With your logic, it would be acceptable to try and run BC heroics at 70 in pvp gear, which was completely terrible for pve locks. I clearly remember seeing other locks I'd run 5 mans with, have the same spell dmg, crit, and haste I did, and watch them do only 2/3's the dmg I did because they had nowhere near enough spell hit even for 5 man runs. There's a REASON blizzard made so many blues and epics available from heroics in wrath with so much hit available, so you could get capped again.

If I had to choose between your 157 hit 20% crit 125 haste and 1540 spell dmg, and another lock with 370 hit 10% crit 125 haste and 1400 spell dmg to go on a raid and do dps, I'd pick the hitcapped lock.

Apparently you don't seem to understand that misses mean recasts, which is wasted mana, meaning more lifetaps, which means even less dps. Afflcition lock misses a haunt? Oops, there goes 20% of their dps for the next 8s till the CD is up. Destro lock has a chaos bolt miss, why have the talent then? Way to miss on a backlash or nightfall proc.

You mentioned in another post needing to be exalted with the kirin tor to get the flameheart spell scalpel. That right there also shows that you haven't done much looking at available gear, because that weapon requires revered, not exalted(actually, if you had paid much attention to my armory page at all, it even says that in the tooltip, I was trying to make a point about being hitcapped and gemming to meet the hitcap, not just stroke my e-peen). Had you not bothered to try and get 999/1000 exalted with wyrmrest for some reason(swap the tabard out in the middle of the run if you're going to hit exalted ffs), you'd be almost 1000 rep ahead with kirin tor and only need 1 more run to hit revered. And again I'll mention the ebonweave crafted gloves that are easily obtainable that would give you the same spell dmg(except the spirit) but provide an extra 51 hit rating. It's true that with the gear you have available to you, you'd have 5% or so less crit, but you'd also be hitcapped. Can't crit when you miss.

And I don't really like the "use" trinkets, but I hope you're at least saving for the sundial. I'm not sure why you'd bother with that green trinket you have since the spirit buff it provides doesn't add up to much since it's only for 10 seconds on what I'm guessing is a 2 minute cooldown.

So again, worry about the crit AFTER you're hitcapped for the content you're trying to run.

[zuxia]

What balance? Any raider will tell you that you NEED to be hitcapped. If you are not hitcapped, there is no point in taking you on a raid. And thank you for proving my point that you don't know what you're talking about. With your logic, it would be acceptable to try and run BC heroics at 70 in pvp gear, which was completely terrible for pve locks. I clearly remember seeing other locks I'd run 5 mans with, have the same spell dmg, crit, and haste I did, and watch them do only 2/3's the dmg I did because they had nowhere near enough spell hit even for 5 man runs. There's a REASON blizzard made so many blues and epics available from heroics in wrath with so much hit available, so you could get capped again.

If I had to choose between your 157 hit 20% crit 125 haste and 1540 spell dmg, and another lock with 370 hit 10% crit 125 haste and 1400 spell dmg to go on a raid and do dps, I'd pick the hitcapped lock.

Apparently you don't seem to understand that misses mean recasts, which is wasted mana, meaning more lifetaps, which means even less dps. Afflcition lock misses a haunt? Oops, there goes 20% of their dps for the next 8s till the CD is up. Destro lock has a chaos bolt miss, why have the talent then? Way to miss on a backlash or nightfall proc.

You mentioned in another post needing to be exalted with the kirin tor to get the flameheart spell scalpel. That right there also shows that you haven't done much looking at available gear, because that weapon requires revered, not exalted(actually, if you had paid much attention to my armory page at all, it even says that in the tooltip, I was trying to make a point about being hitcapped and gemming to meet the hitcap, not just stroke my e-peen). Had you not bothered to try and get 999/1000 exalted with wyrmrest for some reason(swap the tabard out in the middle of the run if you're going to hit exalted ffs), you'd be almost 1000 rep ahead with kirin tor and only need 1 more run to hit revered. And again I'll mention the ebonweave crafted gloves that are easily obtainable that would give you the same spell dmg(except the spirit) but provide an extra 51 hit rating. It's true that with the gear you have available to you, you'd have 5% or so less crit, but you'd also be hitcapped. Can't crit when you miss.

And I don't really like the "use" trinkets, but I hope you're at least saving for the sundial. I'm not sure why you'd bother with that green trinket you have since the spirit buff it provides doesn't add up to much since it's only for 10 seconds on what I'm guessing is a 2 minute cooldown.

So again, worry about the crit AFTER you're hitcapped for the content you're trying to run.

AGAIN YOU SHOW LACK OF COMPLETE THOUGHT!

1st did you ever think that I was done upgrading gear, did I ever say that NO!
2nd EXACTLY CONTENT....YOU FAIL TO PUT THAT OUT EVERYTIME...GO GET HIT BEFORE EVERTHING ELSE...GUESS WHAT IF YOU DON'T NEED THE HIT FOR WHAT YOU ARE RUNNING YOU LOSE DPS! So balance works for this simple fact.
Trinket was from quest

2nd.. exalted--revered its one half dozen or another...fact still remains I am not at the same rep as you.

3rd.. Trinket was upgrade from what I had previously while I have been leveling...sorry can't run heroics every single day to get the badges...others do have a life away from WOW. Didn't take trinket for spirit buff, took it for the damage.

4th...Ebonweave Gloves is easy as long as...you have money spend or, have the tailoring skill at the appropriate level to make and actually been to the location to make it.

5th.. I do raid and you are incorrect, people like you advocate hit just like pre-wotlk and I always put you dps/damage in the dirt. It is called a balance.

6th Think things all the way through before you attempt to tear out my posts, if you don't I will continue to make you look foolish by just repeating what the masses say.

[zuxia]

No. Because 5 minutes is something like 100 casts (ballpark, let's suppose you cast 1 spell every 2s) and that is not a statistically meaningfull sample. On 100 casts, you might get 0 misses despite being at 5% from the cap or have 10. With 33% crit you could get 50 crits or 20. Deriving any universal truth from that is misunderstanding how probabilities work and what theorycraft models tell you (under what assumption they work and the range of validity of the conclusions they provide).

I do understand your point, all I was saying 5min is better indication than 40 sec. The problem has come that, to my knowledge people crunched the numbers and tested that portion and ingnored the other senerios....I do understand probabilities and statistics both. In essence what is truly needed you to have different samples from different populations to reach a mean and thus provided an accurate conclusion. The actual technical term is hypothesis test.

[Merc1138]

Really?

I've mentioned the content just about every time I've discussed what the hitcap is and what gear is available.

And it's awesome that the achievement tab is on the armory now, because I can look and see that the only raid bosses you've killed are 10 man spiderwing bosses, 25 man patchwerk, and 25 man sartharion(who is a cakewalk). Don't try and saying you're doing a whole bunch of raiding when you aren't. It's either that or you guys are having trouble getting past those, and considering that your gear is terrible for beginning as a lvl 80 raider, I can't imagine what the problem might be.

And the masses are definitely NOT agreeing with you, or you must have missed the last page and a half in this thread.

You know what else is funny? We both play on the same realm, if you want to claim your poor gear choices can put my dmg/dps in the dirt, I'd like to see you try it. Hey, you're the one claiming you can do it, get a tank, healer, and other dps like a rogue or something and we can go run a heroic since apparently I need to prove my point to you.

Then again, you'll probably just claim that recount/dmg meters are glitched or something since you just keep showing you have no idea wtf you're talking about.

[zuxia]

Really?

I've mentioned the content just about every time I've discussed what the hitcap is and what gear is available.

And it's awesome that the achievement tab is on the armory now, because I can look and see that the only raid bosses you've killed are 10 man spiderwing bosses, 25 man patchwerk, and 25 man sartharion(who is a cakewalk). Don't try and saying you're doing a whole bunch of raiding when you aren't. It's either that or you guys are having trouble getting past those, and considering that your gear is terrible for beginning as a lvl 80 raider, I can't imagine what the problem might be.

And the masses are definitely NOT agreeing with you, or you must have missed the last page and a half in this thread.

You know what else is funny? We both play on the same realm, if you want to claim your poor gear choices can put my dmg/dps in the dirt, I'd like to see you try it. Hey, you're the one claiming you can do it, get a tank, healer, and other dps like a rogue or something and we can go run a heroic since apparently I need to prove my point to you.

Then again, you'll probably just claim that recount/dmg meters are glitched or something since you just keep showing you have no idea wtf you're talking about.

You again fail to think things through or ask a question of why this and why that..Shows lack of maturity.

1st--I have raided some in wotlk, however due to having to wait for guild to catch up, my work, military, rental, life schedule had to wait, never said I raided extensively in wotlk..so where you pulled that at no idea.

2nd prior wotlk...I did raid alot and hit and crit mechanics haven't changed amounts yes, guess what I wasn't maxed out on hit and put any lock I ran with who had max hit damage to shame.

3rd...your right masses are not with me...kinda off subject but shows relevance...when everyone in 2-3 years were buy houses for ungodly prices because they were "worth it" when in reality it wasn't, I said "it's not worth that" going against what was said. Sometime the abnormal is correct and the normal is not.

4th You truly want to prove me wrong..take some hit away say 80-90 but add a good amount of spell damge and or crit...your an extensive raider..you can figure that out...and test it.

[Merc1138]

Make up your mind, you say the masses are with you in one post, then in another they aren't.

How does me swapping my gear out to lose hit(and dps in a raid) prove you can out dps me like you claimed? I even pointed out that you can prove yourself if you want, but you don't want to do that.

Hell, look up my guild and you'll see that the other raiding lock we have is also hitcapped, for a reason. Our mages? Also stacked with hit or in the process of getting more. Hell, look at any of the upper end raiding guilds on our realm and check out their casters and you'll see that they're stacking hit, for a reason.

Plus, I already said why I as an affliction lock need to be hitcapped(explained for destro too, but again you didn't pay much attention to anything). If I miss a shadowbolt, no big deal. If I miss with a haunt, I lose 20% of my damage from all of my dots ticking till haunt is back off of CD 8 seconds later. 20% of my dot dmg(which is about 3/4 of my output last I looked at a wws report) is a crap ton to lose.

Stop trying to give out advice on how to gear up, when you have no idea what you're talking about.

[zuxia]

Make up your mind, you say the masses are with you in one post, then in another they aren't.

How does me swapping my gear out to lose hit(and dps in a raid) prove you can out dps me like you claimed? I even pointed out that you can prove yourself if you want, but you don't want to do that.

Hell, look up my guild and you'll see that the other raiding lock we have is also hitcapped, for a reason. Our mages? Also stacked with hit or in the process of getting more. Hell, look at any of the upper end raiding guilds on our realm and check out their casters and you'll see that they're stacking hit, for a reason.

Plus, I already said why I as an affliction lock need to be hitcapped(explained for destro too, but again you didn't pay much attention to anything). If I miss a shadowbolt, no big deal. If I miss with a haunt, I lose 20% of my damage from all of my dots ticking till haunt is back off of CD 8 seconds later. 20% of my dot dmg(which is about 3/4 of my output last I looked at a wws report) is a crap ton to lose.

Stop trying to give out advice on how to gear up, when you have no idea what you're talking about.

First never said masses were with me...you need to re-read posts and that makes twice you have made a reference to something I DID NOT SAY...so you need to stop giving advice because it is obvious that your posts will be inaccurate for that simple reason.

Second..your post of missing 1 spell is theory...have you figured up the difference between missing 1 spell and the gains from extra spell power/crit...I seriously doubt it...there is a point of diminishing returns on hit versus having more spell power/crit. This is due to probabilities do some research on it apply it and get back with me.

[Merc1138]

Diminishing returns on hit? What?

Hit does not have diminishing returns, it has a cap. Crit will have diminishing returns when you're not hitcapped because you still have the same chance to get a full miss with a spell instead of crit with it no matter how high your crit is.

Oh, and by the way, quoted directly from your post

6th Think things all the way through before you attempt to tear out my posts, if you don't I will continue to make you look foolish by just repeating what the masses say.

So you're going to make me look foolish by repeating what the masses say? You aren't repeating what the masses are saying, the masses say you need to be hitcapped.

And honestly, don't make claims that you can out dps me, or destroy my dps because you're not hitcapped and I am, when we're on the same realm so it's easy to call you out on it, and then decide you don't want to try and destroy my dps or whatever. It makes you look like a tool.

edit: Ya know what, I'm done with this discussion. I've already proven my point to other people in this thread that your advice is terrible, you've proven you know nothing about the gear that's available to you, there's no need to keep this going any further.

[zuxia]

Diminishing returns on hit? What?

Hit does not have diminishing returns, it has a cap. Crit will have diminishing returns when you're not hitcapped because you still have the same chance to get a full miss with a spell instead of crit with it no matter how high your crit is.

Oh, and by the way, quoted directly from your post

So you're going to make me look foolish by repeating what the masses say? You aren't repeating what the masses are saying, the masses say you need to be hitcapped.

And honestly, don't make claims that you can out dps me, or destroy my dps because you're not hitcapped and I am, when we're on the same realm so it's easy to call you out on it, and then decide you don't want to try and destroy my dps or whatever. It makes you look like a tool.

edit: Ya know what, I'm done with this discussion. I've already proven my point to other people in this thread that your advice is terrible, you've proven you know nothing about the gear that's available to you, there's no need to keep this going any further.

It has a diminshing return when the probability of hitting a mob is say 5% less than cap and you do 500/hit more damage...just because there is a 5% probability does not mean I do miss. Hence in the long run I do more damage than someone who is capped because they are doing 100% damage for less amount per hit...Its called playing odds, risk...ect..

I will point out..at this time your gear level and gear is better period..given same amount level gear yes I would...hence why I said try it for yourself.

All you have proven is you cannot look at another point of view/concept realistically and can only re-iterate what others say...that is called blind faith...test the concept what is the harm in that.

[zuxia]

http://elitistjerks.com/f80/t37780-s...it_discussion/

In this discussion of hit, they bring up several of the points on hit as I have here...So I am not the only one with the same line of thought.

[GlassShardx]

I always just thought you just had to be reasonable. Sure if you lose 300 spellpower to gain 20 hit, it probably isn't a dps gain, but for equal amounts of hit and spellpower, hit rating is definately better.
When raiding however, there is almost never a point where you can gain enough spellpower through gear, to justify not being hit capped, because the hit rating is everywhere.

One example is, if your gear has no hit rating on it, but you have 15 empty sockets. You would gain more dps by using hit rating gems then you would by using spellpower gems.

So in the end, being hit capped should be the end goal, but not if you're losing a ridiculous amount of spellpower for a minimal amount of hit rating.

[zuxia]

In the post that includes thread address on elitest...it does show once you hit a certain hit rating that you get more dps from spell power...elitest doesn't really talk alot about dest...It is the point of playing odds..the percentage of missing hit versus more spell power or crit. Using straight math you cannot figure it out, because we do not have the algorithems that wow uses.

[TerryBogard]

All I saw were thesis' by Merc & Zux.... skipped them all.

Hit Cap, then spell power... thats all. If you are affl haste > crit. If you are destro crit > haste.

For PvP its a different story but currently locks are fubar in arenas