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  1. #1

    From frost tanking to unholy tanking, Some constructive advice please :)

    Hello guys,

    I've been frost for a while now (Leveled and instanced my way to 80 with it) and am just getting my gear together for heroics. I am currently running with this spec:

    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...h=191110050403

    And while enjoying it as i leveled i feel like a change. I really like the look of unholy tanking and was wondering on your input on how it differs from frost tanking. At the minute i find keeping aggro quite easy with groups of people i know but random PUGS are another matter.. :P

    My current rotation is:

    DnD (if needed), IT, PS, Pest, (deathchill if up) HB, then really just BB if the dps is going insane and if not just throwing in HB everytime it's up.

    The thing is, although i love the little extras i get in the frost tree (esp the extra 6 seconds in IBF) it's really not doing it for me as i reach the heroic part of things.

    I will never be raiding, so it's all just Heroics for me. I just don't have the time and was aiming for a build where i can complete heroics comfortably with a group of randoms. (I work really awkward shifts, so friends sometimes arn't available. Unholy looks like a no nonsense "get here and stay attacking me" type of tree and am looking forward to giving it a bash.

    But a few questions to those who have had both or indeed are unholy tanking..

    1. How is snap aggro at the beginning of the pull?
    2. Do you find you struggle on single mob pulls, bosses etc?
    3. Is the AOE threat to die for?
    4. To those who have tried frost, do i have to adjust my mind set? and is there anything you miss from the frost tree?

    AND LASTLY:

    This is the unholy build i have given birth to:

    http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jbxZ0xZfg0I0coxeqocsut

    Butchery instead of 2 hander spec? Do i need the extra RP or is it a waste?
    Other DKs i have spoken too swear by necrosis, although i see the potential.. i just don't think i need it?
    I hear corpse explosion is crap
    Blood caked blade or dirge and summon gargoyle?

    I know i have rambled on but i would appreciate anyones input into this and thanks for taking the time to read it even if you can't help



  2. #2

    Re: From frost tanking to unholy tanking, Some constructive advice please :)

    Unholy holds agro just fine. The only time you will have trouble is if your dps go slap happy the exact moment you pull and like do a pom pyro or stupid shit like that. Frost has more snap agro right off the bat cause you can it->dchill->hb and the dps can be as retarded as the like and shouldn't pull off you. Once you get your diseases up and start scourge striking you should be fine with your tps.

    clicky for armory

  3. #3

    Re: From frost tanking to unholy tanking, Some constructive advice please :)

    This is what i like to use while tanking, using lichbourne as an oshit button, i would like to point out the imp icy touch, since it is mitigation by slowing the mob attacks. Dropping wandering plague is kinda sad though :S

    As for aggro for aoe i usually go dnd,icy,plague,pest,scourge,ub for single just go with standard unholy dps rotation. Don't think i have ever lost threat on single although on aoe there are always gimps single nuking one of them and that sometimes aggros. But thats what you got death grip n dark command for.

  4. #4

    Re: From frost tanking to unholy tanking, Some constructive advice please :)

    For Unholy tanking I would use something a bit more like: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0xZhxbzZcghh0ckgeoocsut

    Butchery isn't very worthwile, as a tank you wont get the killing blow, if you need 5 runic power thats 12.5 seconds of waiting anyways, which you would have a full rune rotation refreshed by then. LichBorn is a very, very nice 'Oh crap' button, something you will definitly need if tanking as unholy with subpar gear. Dont need desecrate, the circle is up for 60% of an unholy rune rotation which equates to 5 points for 3% damage, you can get ones with higher output. Get the spell hit instead of increased BB damage... a resist will be far, far worse than doing 30% less damage on BB or SS. And dirge should let you do UB after spending your first 6 runes, which I consider a bigger plus than the benefit vicious strikes provides.

    As far as tanking choices...

    Frost will treat you much nicer at lower gear levels (what we are currently at) bone armor starts to be great the more avoidance you get, with ideally the boss' hit rate below 35%. Until then you will need to watch very closely your HP's and use bone armor, IBF and lichborn as oh crap buttons instead of rotation buttons. Its doable, just a bit more high stress tanking. We'll see what bone armor does at high gear levels... it might work out to a magical gear level where Unholy tanking becomes far superior to every other tank... but time will tell on this one.

    Snap aggro is definitly lower as unholy (no HB), but sustained AE aggro should be greater. If you can persuade your dps to wait the full 6-11 seconds to get everything up (DND, blood plague, frost fever, pest, UB) they shouldnt be able to pull a mob off by AoE damage. But there is no comparison for forced crit HB snap aggro.

  5. #5
    Deleted

    Re: From frost tanking to unholy tanking, Some constructive advice please :)

    This is what I wrote in another thread:

    Recipe for SMOOTH heroic tanking on a death knight:

    - Get 535 defense
    - Get at least 38-40% avoidance with Horn of winter up (= 50% with BB)
    - Spec deep unholy
    - Get Boneshield glyph and icy touch glyph
    - Enchant your gear and get at least 24k HP unbuffed (more is better)

    You will absolutely destroy heroics with this setup. A frost spec is also great, however unholy is the king of AoE tanking and if played right you will likely outperform all the other dps'ers in your group to boot.

    Rotation:

    0) Pre-buff boneshield
    1) Stand conveniently in front of your pull, and mark a skull at least.
    2) Lay down a DnD and grip your skull to you
    3) IT > PS > Pestilence
    4) Now you should be > 60 RP if you had the icy touch glyph. Throw up Unholy blight.

    By now, ALL mobs should stick to you like glue for the remainder of the pull.

    5) Now use your blood runes on Blood Boil, and Scourge strike whenever you got an FU pair.
    6) Watch things die.

    This is the basics. With my spec I got loads of Oh shit buttons on top, but usually boneshield + my passive avoidance does the job nicely. However these are the tools you got as nice topping:

    - Icebound fortitude
    - AMS
    - AMZ (This is great in 5 mans)
    - Lichborne

    As far as the spec, here's the outline:

    http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0xZhg0zZfg0I0zkreoRcout

    As you notice, I left out 4 points which can be used in whatever. Naturally, they fit into the blood tree for extra threat for 2/2 two-hand spec + 2/5 bladed armor for good single target threat, or maybe 4/5 bladed armor for extra aoe threat.

    The entire build is centered around 5-man tanking and aoe utility.

    Unholy choices and comments:
    I choose the ghoul as it's only 1 talent point anyway, since you will be grabbing Shadow of Death regardless. The ghoul dies pretty quick in the aoe pulls, but he is great extra dps on bosses.

    Same with gargoyle, it's 1 point talent and this will add noticable extra boss dps.

    Then I chose to spec for AMZ. It is indeed very talent heavy, but it's just such a very nice tool when there is a lot of magic damage being thrown around. Honestly, I can't think of ONE single heroic where this doesn't have a use. It works as an extra oh-shit button as well. The alternatives are very lackluster on top of that.

    Blood-caked blade / Impurity / Necrosis are not very great talents, seeing as threat is not really a problem. On top of that, Necrosis and BCB doesn't proc off of runestrikes which you will be doing all the time.

    2/2 Unholy aura. Great choice, this is one of the few unique buffs the death knight can offer. It helps tremendously in fights where you have to MOVE a lot (think Loken, Skadi in UP, Violet Hold in general and so on). See it as group utility.

    No wandering plague. This talent is incredibly underwhelmning, considering you will have around 8% crit in your tanking gear. Skip this.

    No desecration. While 5% damage is nice, the snare is almost useless in heroics and 5 points for 5% damage is OK, but id rather take AMZ, as again, threat is NOT a problem as unholy.

    Frost choices and comments
    Pretty straight forward, you need ofc 5 here in toughness to complete the 5/5/5 tanking trinity. To add some more mitigation and another oh shit button, I specced down to get Lichborne which is awesome when things go wrong and IBF is on CD. Improved Icy Touch for an extra -6% mob attack speed.

    Blood choices and comments
    Blade barrier is a given. After that it's a bit of a dilemma. You can take butchery if you want a weeny bit of in-combat RP generation. Some people swear by it, I personally can live without it.

    Then there is 4 points left. You can take 2/2 twohandspec and 2/5 Bladed armor, or dump all 4 points in BA all-together. Option one gives you more single target threat, while option two gives you more attack power, which equals more AoE threat. With my gear it comes down to 290 Attack Power, versus 4% weapon and strike damage.

    My own final heroic dungeonrunner aoe build of doom looks like this:

    http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0gMZ...g0G0bkreoRcout

    (I took 2/2 On a pale horse taking 1 out of BcB and 1 out of Outbreak, as I love it when im soloing. It has no real tanking value however, so you can opt that out completely if you are only looking for tanking choices)


    GL in your future runs. Unholy ftw

  6. #6

    Re: From frost tanking to unholy tanking, Some constructive advice please :)

    Hey there,

    To begin I must say I HIGHLY suggest Unholy tanking for beginning heroic to entry level raiding (and perhaps further.) The spec does have a few weaknesses, but intelligent gameplay will overcome them.

    This is my Unholy tanking spec.

    http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0E0VZhZfghhxcoMIo0csut

    It is designed to do massive threat on a single target, as well as holding staunch aggro on all adjacent mobs. In other words, this is a beast of a heroic running spec. I spent more than 4 hours doing the math on each talent point spent, doing a cost/benefit analysis of each decision possible.

    And in the end the effort was worth it. I have gotten many, many, kudos on my tanking ability and average 9 heroics a day- mainly because I have drawn the attention of some really potent members of the server who enjoy running with me.

    As mentioned above, this spec has one major weakness, and that is a lack of "Oh Shit" buttons. It only has two, Bone Shield and Icebound Fortitude. Both are on minute cooldowns, and provide -incredible- benefit. However, I have found that, with proper gearing, BS stays up much longer than I had anticipated (especially with the glyph), and using it as an "oh shit" button, instead of mindlessly spamming it each time it is up helps a lot on certain heavy hitting bosses.


    In the end, I wouldn't suggest any Unholy spec for Main Tanking anything beyond entry level Naxx and heroics. Beyond that point, I highly suggest Frost, as it holds the banner in avoidance and mitigation, as well as more "Oh Shit" buttons than you can shake a stick at.


    Hope this helps.

    -Vamp

  7. #7

    Re: From frost tanking to unholy tanking, Some constructive advice please :)

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOnlyVamp
    Hey there,

    To begin I must say I HIGHLY suggest Unholy tanking for beginning heroic to entry level raiding (and perhaps further.) The spec does have a few weaknesses, but intelligent gameplay will overcome them.

    This is my Unholy tanking spec.

    http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0E0VZhZfghhxcoMIo0csut

    It is designed to do massive threat on a single target, as well as holding staunch aggro on all adjacent mobs. In other words, this is a beast of a heroic running spec. I spent more than 4 hours doing the math on each talent point spent, doing a cost/benefit analysis of each decision possible.

    And in the end the effort was worth it. I have gotten many, many, kudos on my tanking ability and average 9 heroics a day- mainly because I have drawn the attention of some really potent members of the server who enjoy running with me.

    As mentioned above, this spec has one major weakness, and that is a lack of "Oh Shit" buttons. It only has two, Bone Shield and Icebound Fortitude. Both are on minute cooldowns, and provide -incredible- benefit. However, I have found that, with proper gearing, BS stays up much longer than I had anticipated (especially with the glyph), and using it as an "oh shit" button, instead of mindlessly spamming it each time it is up helps a lot on certain heavy hitting bosses.


    In the end, I wouldn't suggest any Unholy spec for Main Tanking anything beyond entry level Naxx and heroics. Beyond that point, I highly suggest Frost, as it holds the banner in avoidance and mitigation, as well as more "Oh Shit" buttons than you can shake a stick at.


    Hope this helps.

    -Vamp
    well i dunno bout ur spec, i mean if u drop the crit and ap from blood u can get lichborn in frost, its better to tank not only 25% more mis, but if u use it with combination of deathcoil on urself, it can save the day when needed

    then why no deathgrip talent, its ur best taunt...

  8. #8
    kriS411
    Guest

    Re: From frost tanking to unholy tanking, Some constructive advice please :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mew
    3) IT > PS > Pestilence
    Unholy DKs should PS > IT > Pest...


  9. #9

    Re: From frost tanking to unholy tanking, Some constructive advice please :)

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOnlyVamp
    Hey there,

    To begin I must say I HIGHLY suggest Unholy tanking for beginning heroic to entry level raiding (and perhaps further.) The spec does have a few weaknesses, but intelligent gameplay will overcome them.

    This is my Unholy tanking spec.

    http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0E0VZhZfghhxcoMIo0csut

    It is designed to do massive threat on a single target, as well as holding staunch aggro on all adjacent mobs. In other words, this is a beast of a heroic running spec. I spent more than 4 hours doing the math on each talent point spent, doing a cost/benefit analysis of each decision possible.

    And in the end the effort was worth it. I have gotten many, many, kudos on my tanking ability and average 9 heroics a day- mainly because I have drawn the attention of some really potent members of the server who enjoy running with me.

    As mentioned above, this spec has one major weakness, and that is a lack of "Oh Shit" buttons. It only has two, Bone Shield and Icebound Fortitude. Both are on minute cooldowns, and provide -incredible- benefit. However, I have found that, with proper gearing, BS stays up much longer than I had anticipated (especially with the glyph), and using it as an "oh shit" button, instead of mindlessly spamming it each time it is up helps a lot on certain heavy hitting bosses.


    In the end, I wouldn't suggest any Unholy spec for Main Tanking anything beyond entry level Naxx and heroics. Beyond that point, I highly suggest Frost, as it holds the banner in avoidance and mitigation, as well as more "Oh Shit" buttons than you can shake a stick at.


    Hope this helps.

    -Vamp
    No toughness? Ravenous death, necrosis and a permanent ghoul, but no outbreak? All in all a decent build, but you took a few odd points. Maybe you can explain why you picked those talents?

  10. #10

    Re: From frost tanking to unholy tanking, Some constructive advice please :)

    Quote Originally Posted by kriS411
    Unholy DKs should PS > IT > Pest...
    Pulling with IT is hands down better than face pulling. Perhaps for DPS PS > IT is the way to go, but as far as tanking goes I'll just say your making a bad choice to do that except on solo boss pulls where you are generally just running in.

    D&D (as needed), IT, PS, Pest, etc is imo the only way to go on any fight that you are pulling.

    And no, don't use Death Grip to pull either unless you are pulling a range caster or archer type mob. It's much more useful to pick up a runner or that caster that just doesn't want to come to your AE otherwise.

  11. #11

    Re: From frost tanking to unholy tanking, Some constructive advice please :)

    http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0xZ0xZfgGI0bogeoossut

    Here you go. Staple avoidance talents, none of the nonsense like gargoyle or necrosis.

    It doesn't have a bunch of 'oh shit' buttons, but I haven't found them necessary for Naxx or heroics.

  12. #12

    Re: From frost tanking to unholy tanking, Some constructive advice please :)

    This is my planned build for level 80 for running 5 man Heroics. (the most I'll see most likely)

    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...h=090411050401

    The build is about having all of the (imo) required talents in Unholy while also having all of the easily obtained mitagation talents. I could remove Garg/MoG and pick up OaPH, but I'm not really sure yet on whether I'd even notice the reduced stun/fear duration. And the mounted speed is a perk I can do without honestly when it means loosing out on maintaining some personal dps for while still solo.

    As for Necrosis, BCB, and Wandering Plague. Imo they just aren't worth the talent points after having tried them in different builds. We don't do enough white damage for Necrosis to matter very much, I haven't needed the added DPS or threat from BCB, and my crit hasn't came near the point where Wandering Plague goes off often.

    This to me at least seems like the perfect build for Heroic instance grinding while mantaining some extra personal dps until the dual spec feature comes out. Once that happens, the only thing I'll most likely change is I'll take out Garg/MoG and pick up OaPH.

  13. #13

    Re: From frost tanking to unholy tanking, Some constructive advice please :)

    Thanks for the tips and advice guys, I think i am going to go for something like this:

    http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0xMZ...g0I0bkgeoocout

    Maybe switching out to wandering plague if i feel i need it. I think i was in the mindset that desecration was "teh roxor" when i looked at the unholy tree and i see now that it is nice to have but no means a MUST have for tanking

    Just sat in OG fishing while my virus scan does its work, then i'll be back in ebon hold to try it out!

    .....Bloody old crafty...

  14. #14
    Deleted

    Re: From frost tanking to unholy tanking, Some constructive advice please :)

    Very solid build there, only thing I would make room for, is Unholy aura, unless you have another UH deathknight in your raid / group. Its really a nice talent, and taking 2 our of impurity would suit perfect.

    Have fun tanking

  15. #15

    Re: From frost tanking to unholy tanking, Some constructive advice please :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bleaktusk
    Thanks for the tips and advice guys, I think i am going to go for something like this:

    http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0xMZ...g0I0bkgeoocout

    Maybe switching out to wandering plague if i feel i need it. I think i was in the mindset that desecration was "teh roxor" when i looked at the unholy tree and i see now that it is nice to have but no means a MUST have for tanking

    Just sat in OG fishing while my virus scan does its work, then i'll be back in ebon hold to try it out!

    .....Bloody old crafty...
    Unless you are going to be raiding, I feel that the 6 points into Magic Suppression and AMZ isn't really worth it. If you are focusing on Heroics, I personally would suggest dropping it as it is 6 talent points for a ability which is very situtational. I'd also get rid of 2H Spec as it just isn't worth it imo.

    As for Desecration. Have you used it yet? It is very useful for controlling mobs due to the snare effect, but it is also 5% inceased damage. To me it is something not to be specced out of if you are going to be AEing as Unholy, but to each their own.

    Anyways, seems you are on the right path. Enjoy the spec, it's very close to what I will be using.

  16. #16

    Re: From frost tanking to unholy tanking, Some constructive advice please :)

    I like this build.

    http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0xMZ0gZfghI0botxsocsut

    Imo its the perfect build for an unholy tank maxes your aoe potential and allows for the mitigation talents and damage talents you need as an unholy tank.

  17. #17

    Re: From frost tanking to unholy tanking, Some constructive advice please :)

    1) Why are people getting gargoyle as a tank? You have more than enough RP dumps.
    2) Why are people getting unholy aura? Movement speed isn't nearly as important as other talents that people are skipping.
    3) Why are people getting Desecration rather than Virulence, Dirge, Reaping, Wandering Plague, Night of the Dead... Any of those are more useful, in my mind. Desecration is a PVP ability! Snares aren't that important with D&D making everything attack you.

  18. #18
    High Overlord
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    Re: From frost tanking to unholy tanking, Some constructive advice please :)

    I really like this build as it has served me well.

    oops here is the correct build
    http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...53051003123151

    (had the point in corpse explosion by accident)

    I don't take the permanent ghoul as he dies way too fast in raid (any) AoE (or random glancing from critters). Don't forget you can summon and sack him quick for 20% health. Lichborne I use earlier on as to have it available again towards end of fights. Also keep rotating bone shield, Ice bound fortitude, and Anti-magic shell. Anti magic zone is a godsend in magic AoE fights. glyph both IBF and Bone Shield. I take desecrated ground for the extra threat and IF I lose threat I have that much longer to pick them up.

    Don't forget our defensive cool downs should be spammed not like warrior's last stand.

    GL and win the internets
    Quote Originally Posted by Jubjub View Post
    This is like saying "I was running along the motorway eating a banana and was hit by a car. Just wondering if anyone else had problems with being hit by a car while eating bananas?"
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    i like the trix yogurt vomit bat. He is EPIC

  19. #19
    High Overlord
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    Re: From frost tanking to unholy tanking, Some constructive advice please :)

    I have been fine with out dirge to be honest. I tried it and didn't find I NEEDED it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jubjub View Post
    This is like saying "I was running along the motorway eating a banana and was hit by a car. Just wondering if anyone else had problems with being hit by a car while eating bananas?"
    Quote Originally Posted by Howling Wind View Post
    i like the trix yogurt vomit bat. He is EPIC

  20. #20

    Re: From frost tanking to unholy tanking, Some constructive advice please :)

    I found Dirge to be infinitely valuable because it allows the use of Unholy Blight after only one rotation.

    As for your spec-- I understand why you wouldn't necessary want a ghoul (though I've found it to be a sizable contribution for only one talent point, even if it does die every encounter), but why would you take Corpse Explosion? I know you all disagree on Desecration (Honestly I'd put those points in Virulence and Unholy Command), but Corpse Explosion really does nothing for... anything, really. Raiding doesn't have enough corpses to make it valuable, nor does PVP, and for soloing it's not even that good.

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