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  1. #41

    Re: About Warlock pvp problems

    Quote Originally Posted by gherkin
    Swiftmend for DOTS. Consume corruption to deal its entirety of damage in one go. 6k to the FACE mother@#$%er!!!
    best idea yet
    and allow it to crit

  2. #42

    Re: About Warlock pvp problems

    I find most warlocks aren't too difficult to kill

  3. #43

    Re: About Warlock pvp problems

    Quote Originally Posted by lueigi
    I find most warlocks aren't too difficult to kill
    TY for figuring out the point of this thread for us.
    Definition of useless -

    Q. Any plans for an untalented spell to help warlocks deal with stuns?
    A. Possibly. It’s also possible we may take a look at stuns in general. But overall stuns will feel less impacting in an environment where players have significantly more health than they do today.

  4. #44

    Re: About Warlock pvp problems

    Glad I could help

  5. #45

    Re: About Warlock pvp problems

    Quote Originally Posted by gherkin
    1) Don't feed the trolls

    2) Resilience on pets, better health scaling

    3) Swiftmend for DOTS. Consume corruption to deal its entirety of damage in one go. 6k to the FACE mother@#$%er!!!
    This!

  6. #46

    Re: About Warlock pvp problems

    Quote Originally Posted by WolleKK
    Haha, your corruption ticks for 800 and you are complaining about other classes making too much damage. Damn, l2p and gtfo! What I want to say: Wait for S5-gear
    My corruption ticks for 1400ish on NPCs, so I'm losing roughly half of what I can normally do yet they can literally 1 shot us yet we're the ones who need to "l2p"?

    This is why I don't PvP.

  7. #47

    Re: About Warlock pvp problems

    warlocks is just used to be able to dot and fear to win. well that shit is ended and warlock are nowadays mortal.
    The Insane.

  8. #48
    tortillariot
    Guest

    Re: About Warlock pvp problems

    The problem Blizzard have is they designed all these CC spells to be used against their dumb AI - not other players. Back in 2005 PvP was world only, until the big tarren Mill raids meant they were forced to quickly stick AV in to put stability back on the servers.

    They've been trying to balance all these CC spells to work in PvP ever since, and badly in my view.

    I think one nice thing that could be easily added is a cooldown (say 1 min, or 30 seconds) that makes the following spell do a push back - like the DK spell but in reverse, kind of like the shaman spell.

    Another alternative is to make drain life push the player back or keep them at length. This would probably be overpowered on its own (or the longer the drain went on, the less it pushed back) so another pre-spell would probably be needed.

  9. #49
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    Re: About Warlock pvp problems

    Quote Originally Posted by MeRoxz
    warlocks is just used to be able to dot and fear to win. well that shit is ended and warlock are nowadays mortal.
    Any decent player would not let the warlock full-duration fear them, and given the survival issues we can now be killed before the diminishing returns wears off.

    It doesn't matter that fear breaks on damage anymore. We don't survive long enough for that to be an issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by tortillariot
    Another alternative is to make drain life push the player back or keep them at length. This would probably be overpowered on its own (or the longer the drain went on, the less it pushed back) so another pre-spell would probably be needed.
    That would be called Mind Flay. Not exactly what you described, but close enough.

    R.I.P. YARG

  10. #50

    Re: About Warlock pvp problems

    Quote Originally Posted by MeRoxz
    warlocks is just used to be able to dot and fear to win. well that shit is ended and warlock are nowadays mortal.
    Its not so much that they are mortal, i would be fine with that, its that they are now free HKs. Im all fine with counter classes (certain classes and/or specs having an advantage over locks) but as it stands every melee class demolishes locks and every class with good burst damage destroys locks. That is the absence of balance.

    Locks problems

    1) Fear is easily dispelled, breaks on damage, and many classes have immunities to it

    2) need range and to be planted to do decent damage. No way to escape from melee (if arguing fear read above)

    3) Supposed to be a healing while damaging class. DKs outheal and outdamage us.

    4) Pets dies too quickly and have piss poor damage (minus felgaurd but he gets 1 shotted). SL needs a pet to work

    5) Deathcoil is easily resisted; both damage and healing. 2 minute cd is long considering this

    6) All other cloth classes have damage shields. Locks need to sac VW for one. No SL. Epic fail

    7) Howl of Terror should be instant cast w/o talenting it. Even then it wouldnt help locks much

    8) All DoTs should have a counter to being dispelled. UA dispel damage should be 3x-5x more.

    9) CoTongues should now be a silence/interupt

    10) lack of a "knockback" ability


    Well I could keep on going but you get the general idea. They are a class that has been outdated by expansions. PvE damage is fine but that only because boss fights take a long time. In theory locks do decent damage overall but in todays age of burst damage and stuns they fall far behind other classes. Plus there are so many ways to remove curses and DoTs and way too many classes have fear immunities. Locks need an overhaul for PvP survivabilty
    Definition of useless -

    Q. Any plans for an untalented spell to help warlocks deal with stuns?
    A. Possibly. It’s also possible we may take a look at stuns in general. But overall stuns will feel less impacting in an environment where players have significantly more health than they do today.

  11. #51

    Re: About Warlock pvp problems

    lol you should see what the hunters are saying about us. Some of them are saying that were too OP and their the weakest link in pvp. >_<

    I hate how 75% of the classes have an ability to not get feared and they can have a trinket as well... and that goes with death coil as well making both pretty much useless ;/

    People say atleast we can metamorph... as soon as metemorph goes down if the fight has not been won its far from over, not only that pallys love it when we metamorph and so do other locks and if anyhing they just kite us around. Then theres affliction but without a healer thats like a girl walking down a dark ally with a short skirt. Destruction is our best bet just because of conflag and shadow fury i think even that wont help much but more then anything else i think.

  12. #52

    Re: About Warlock pvp problems

    Quote Originally Posted by TerryBogard
    1) Fear is easily dispelled, breaks on damage, and many classes have immunities to it
    Just like sheep, hex, roots and co (except the immunities but a) dim returns and b) is fear the most powerful cc because target doesn't break immediatly taking 1 dmg and has no cd)

    2) need range and to be planted to do decent damage. No way to escape from melee (if arguing fear read above)
    a) every caster needs range
    b) escape-mechanics: seduce, fear, death coil, demonic circle

    3) Supposed to be a healing while damaging class. DKs outheal and outdamage us.
    can't compare melee with caster. Every class got their plus and minus

    4) Pets dies too quickly and have piss poor damage (minus felgaurd but he gets 1 shotted). SL needs a pet to work
    This is an argument, but I don't believe Felguard gets 1 shotted and felhunter has great resistance... or has it been removed? ;D

    5) Deathcoil is easily resisted; both damage and healing. 2 minute cd is long considering this
    quotin GC: Death Coil is fine

    6) All other cloth classes have damage shields. Locks need to sac VW for one. No SL. Epic fail
    elemental Shaman has no shield
    Druid has no shield
    Fire und Arcane Mage have just Mana Shield. And you are sacrificing a lot of mana for health.

    7) Howl of Terror should be instant cast w/o talenting it. Even then it wouldnt help locks much
    Y?

    8) All DoTs should have a counter to being dispelled. UA dispel damage should be 3x-5x more.
    GC already talked about the dispell-mechanism. They already are working on it. But I don't think we will see any result next 6 months. UA dispell already is uber.

    9) CoTongues should now be a silence/interupt
    lol
    Felhunter already has CS

    10) lack of a "knockback" ability
    Like every caster

  13. #53

    Re: About Warlock pvp problems

    Quote Originally Posted by WolleKK
    Just like sheep, hex, roots and co (except the immunities but a) dim returns and b) is fear the most powerful cc because target doesn't break immediatly taking 1 dmg and has no cd)
    a) every caster needs range
    b) escape-mechanics: seduce, fear, death coil, demonic circle
    can't compare melee with caster. Every class got their plus and minus
    This is an argument, but I don't believe Felguard gets 1 shotted and felhunter has great resistance... or has it been removed? ;D
    quotin GC: Death Coil is fine
    elemental Shaman has no shield
    Druid has no shield
    Fire und Arcane Mage have just Mana Shield. And you are sacrificing a lot of mana for health.
    Y?
    GC already talked about the dispell-mechanism. They already are working on it. But I don't think we will see any result next 6 months. UA dispell already is uber.
    lol
    Felhunter already has CS
    Like every caster
    OK going through your responses one at a time:

    1) Fear also has immunities as we have already agreed upon as well as diminishing returns. And on hex you are wrong. Cyclone is idiot proof (cannot be broken by damage because target is immune). Roots breaks on damage the same as fear. In the end fear is a lesser CC.

    2a) yes but all other caster classes (maybe not spriests) have better damage reduction from melee
    2b) seduce (at least it used to be) was tied to the same diminishing returns as fear. If anyone disagrees test it out. Also succys have 0 survivabilty and are 1 shotted. Fear is, yes, but read above as to why it isnt enough alone. DC 3 sec relief, does not create a good enough separation between the lock and the target, and is easily resisted. Demonic circle is ok but is a lot harder to use than any other escape mechanic other classes have. Also locks have no way out of stuns.

    3) It is a comparison to the only other dps/healing class. DKs have more mitigation, dps, and healing abilities than locks. So no, the only other dps/healing class shouldnt trump locks in all 3 catagories because its a melee. DKs also have better spell damage mitigation than locks. I dont think the two classes should be the same but they should be comparable to the other in that regard.

    4) Im taking it you dont PvP much. Lock pets (all of them) get 1-2 shotted mostly because resil doesnt carry over to the pets. And yes resistances were all lowered.

    5) GC, who I have a lot of respect for, is not always right as he himself admits. Just a bad argument. Many times GC has been quoted as saying an ability is "fine" that has been changed in a later patch because that ability, indeed, was not.

    6) All other CLOTH classes.... you obviously missed the word cloth. Arcane and Fire are specs, not classes. And dont all mages now get the shield (just not talented)? Shaman and boomkins both have better armor (ie mitigation) than locks in addition to better magic school resistance. That is why they do not have damage shields and why i said CLOTH.

    7) Because locks are "the masters of fear". Howl is an "oh shit" button. Both other classes with aoe fears have them as instant cast without talenting. Sounds fair IMO since howls duration is short, is on a cd, and not an effective form of CC.

    8) So why talk about it if its already been stated by GC as being an issue? Also UA is not uber as is currently is

    9) Felhunters are currently dieing too quickly (as are all other lock pets. read above). They are also way less effective in PvP as they used to be. Curses are too easily dispelled by many classes. CoT as an interrupt/silence would greatly improve lock survivability again other casters. Its just a thought.

    10) No, some casters do get knockbacks. Others get immobilizers (roots). Locks get neither. Thats the problem


    EDIT: What locks have always suffered from is the lack of means to escape from melee classes. Boomkins can shift form and run away, grasp, cyclone, and typhoon. Mages can blink, IB, FN, even mirror image. Shaman can FS, grasp totem, thunderstorm, and even ghostwolf. Priests are in a similar situation but PS being instant w/o talenting is still better than HoT. Fear, considering how easily it is resisted and has sooooo many classes that are immune to it, is no longer a viable "only means of defense". Fear has become obsolete and locks need something else to compliment it.
    Definition of useless -

    Q. Any plans for an untalented spell to help warlocks deal with stuns?
    A. Possibly. It’s also possible we may take a look at stuns in general. But overall stuns will feel less impacting in an environment where players have significantly more health than they do today.

  14. #54

    Re: About Warlock pvp problems

    Pets:

    all but the VW get usually 2 shotted...ie 2x global cooldowns and our pet is dead. Maybe 3 but any decently geared melee will gib them in a ~3 second window. The VW gets 3-4 shotted. So that's 4-5 seconds.

    The felpup's anti stealth aura was taken away and given the the VW but can only be used out of combat and still is an "on use".

    The felguard's previously low resists to magic dmg are now gone entirely. Zero resists and I promise "avoidance" doesn't work in PVP.

    Succy can talent instant seduce which is another fear per game mechanics and suffers the same limitations. This fear however breaks instantly on dmg but eats a DR charge.

    The felpup's magic resists were cut by about half. He's now slightly resistant but w' spell penn gear everyone will have for pvp he might as well have zero.

    The imp has zero pvp use. Love to see "fire shield" become "melee shield". Maybe give him "jihad" where he runs over, humps your opponent's leg, and detonates for 10K dmg.

    ALL of this is of less consequence since any melee will just kill the pet in a couple GCD's and the master in a couple more. Or they pop a cooldown and kill us both at the same time.

    Its a burst world in PVP whether intentionally or unintentionally by blizz . A class that does Dmg Over TIME is by definition at a disadvantage. You can whine about fear not breaking on dmg but you can take any lock 100% to dead during a stun and the stun is in no danger of breaking. UA offers very little penalty for removing it. Any priest w' a shield up doesn't even take dmg from UA. Destro has some burst potential but most of it revolves around immolate and it not being dispelled before casting anything else. What's the stun duration on kidney shot? What's the cooldown? How does that match up w' shadowfury?
    User has been banned permanently for trolling.

  15. #55

    Re: About Warlock pvp problems

    @TerryBogard:
    First at all: Why am I wron on hex? Damage interrupts the effect and has cd

    So to sum your points:
    Warlock has not enough mitgation
    Pet has really not enough mitgation

    About fear-immunities: All these anti-fear-skills are cd-based, priest-skill even is dispellable. Warrior for example now is fearable in the time window between Berz rage. WotF got nerfed a little bit too.

    About word cloth: Damn yeah Your shield shall be the sl. And no shield is perfect
    Mage has Mana Shield and Frost Mage the Ice Barrier. IB is imba, jeah. Mana Shield is more a negative Life Tap but sacrificing more mana then saving hp.

    As I can understand you, I think simply the demon needs more mitgation and with Session 6 u are at the very top of the ratings again ;-)


    ps: thx for telling diminishing return of seduce and fear. Didn't know that, interesting!

  16. #56

    Re: About Warlock pvp problems

    Quote Originally Posted by WolleKK

    About fear-immunities: All these anti-fear-skills are cd-based, priest-skill even is dispellable. Warrior for example now is fearable in the time window between Berz rage. WotF got nerfed a little bit too.

    Yes they are cd based. Doesnt change the fact they they are ALWAYS used against locks and always lead to the lock dieing very shortly thereafter.

    Quote Originally Posted by WolleKK

    About word cloth: Damn yeah Your shield shall be the sl. And no shield is perfect
    Mage has Mana Shield and Frost Mage the Ice Barrier. IB is imba, jeah. Mana Shield is more a negative Life Tap but sacrificing more mana then saving hp.
    Soul Link is no longer a factor considering lock pets do not have any survivabilty. Locks go from 20k health to 0 in the span of a couple GCDs. As far as fire and arcane mages go they sacrifice barrier for more burst damage but still have FN, IB, and blink. Arcane also has Slow.

    Quote Originally Posted by WolleKK

    As I can understand you, I think simply the demon needs more mitgation and with Session 6 u are at the very top of the ratings again ;-)
    Warlock pets gaining more mitigation and the benefits from resil would help some. Still wouldnt solve lock survivabilty issues alone. Locks would still be taking a lot of burst damage and SL only diverts 20%. Considering as how a lock is usually dead in 5-8 secs that would only yield a 1-2 second bonus survival time. In no way would that make them reach the "top of the ratings".
    Definition of useless -

    Q. Any plans for an untalented spell to help warlocks deal with stuns?
    A. Possibly. It’s also possible we may take a look at stuns in general. But overall stuns will feel less impacting in an environment where players have significantly more health than they do today.

  17. #57

    Re: About Warlock pvp problems

    two stupid questions

    1.) Doesn't scale the ua-dispell-damage with spell power?

    2.) What is changed, WLs are whining? Of course no one has a lot 80-pvp-gear so crits are very critty and a warlock needs longer fights. But if you look into the future having S5-gear (with crit instead of stam, yeah I know, that sucks) and fighting against other s5-guys. Isn't this the same like before 6 months? Difference: Everybody has some more buttons to push. Why the warlock has less escape mechanics and less mitgation now?

    two stupid points to tell

    1.) I agree with you with the pet-mitgation

    2.) UA has a 5 sec silence too. Me says: mighty! In this 5 (with talents maybe 4) seconds you can cast two new UAs ;-)



    edit: Maybe with Session X everybody is able to take so much damage, something like this will be modern again ^^

  18. #58

    Re: About Warlock pvp problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Skivoh
    I rerolled Death Knight.
    Now i get to 2 shot people when they have no means of escaping (Disclaimer: 2shot is just an expression DKs are not as op as pallys, that would be 0.004 shot people in percentage decrease)

    It's realy nice you should try it !



    Seriously now, dump your lock untill the class is buffed. Stats, pvp gear or anything won't help.
    Warriors will 2 shot you, rogues will stunlock you, paladins will 2 shot you, Mages will 3 shot you, hunters will annoy you and mostly die out of dots after they kill you, feral druids will kill you before pounce wears off and death knight will woop your ass.
    Im right there with you! Levling my paladin as we speak

    (Lock is afking in Dalaran ready to jump in again)

  19. #59

    Re: About Warlock pvp problems

    i liked the jihad idea

    maybe give us a detonate button on our pets, we click and they do an aoe like frost nova and lock our opponents in place for a few seconds. do at least as much dmg as seed of corruption or more.

    make it so we can get a decent bubble out of the vw sacrifice from all the pets.

    or give us some kind of stun immunity - could be talented. just give us a chance to not get beat down in under 10 seconds.
    Signature removed. Please read our guidelines. Venara

  20. #60

    Re: About Warlock pvp problems

    I was being a bit sarcastic on the imp jihad thing (can only imagine the 5's teams sending in waves of jihad imps...lol)

    Our pets ALL need viable skills, they need to not be instagib, and we need some survival vs melee. Be it burst to match theirs, survival to see our dots tick, or help from the pet I think should vary by spec.

    I don't get why blizz gives endless buffs to classes that dont need them in the name of pvp necessity but we are at the bottom of the pile and they still test out (if not implement) nerfs.

    Did I miss the part where they tripled demonic resilience to make our pets live in pvp but nerfed their dmg? Did I miss the part about them buffing the crap out of demon armor/skin so we didn't get confetti shredded by melee? Did I miss the skill changes to our pets to make the rest of them pvp viable?

    Affliction does well in PVE because the boss doesn't target us (hopefully) and we can sit and unload the game's most complex cast sequences to do competitive dmg. That is the last thing you can do in PVP. For the nerfs they scare us with or the state of things vs melee in PVP I'd hope we are getting something huge. Stealth for a caster? The very thought of it no doubt spawns tidal waves of dot/vanish QQ... Probably as likely as them fixing real problems in pvp and not screwing up things that were fine already.

    I think blizzard devs are recruited from detroit auto designers...."oh the engine dies at stoplights and gets horrid mileage" "but I redesigned the cigarette lighter" "Who cares! Hybrids and efficient vehicles are eating our ass in sales" "The engine problem is irrelevant since we have a new ergonomic cigarette lighter button" Problem solved...on to buffing DK's.
    User has been banned permanently for trolling.

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