Goodbye 0/41/30. GG Blizz :(

[Screecher]

supposively this was suppose to be the patch were blizzar has already stated they noticed our pve dps cry for help ;/

[V]

Pick something you enjoy and turn off the damn meters.

A srs raider is ALWAYS concerned about their dps output and their contribution to the raid. And so is your guild.. my dps is not even bad, im not even saying (in a srs manner at least) that blizz is sayin we HAVE to be afflic but a srs raider committed to progression and content will always spec the highest dps spec and have a meter.

And honestly if our dps really is subpar then how exactly am I supposed to say take me instead of the guy with utility since in my guild if ur just to lazy to fly in urself or walk u sit. Summons is not a reason to take a lock.

Edit: full sentences are nice.

[Lumusnoctis]

Well.. since these are only PTR notes, i sure hope they will change some things about this.. really crap to keep getting screwed over and over again. Just when i found a good spec to start raiding (0/41/30) they completely destroy the only fundations that that spec had.. :-[

[gherkin]

Well then I suppose I hold a different opinion of raid dps than the rest of you. Maybe you are all on high population raiding servers? We have a hard time getting butts into the seats on my server, so the whole "Warlock vs Mage vs Shaman" problem has never been an issue unless the DPS output was not inline with gear/spec.

My policy has always been "if you can keep up, you can come" and there will always be a class that sits in favor of specific abilities. Hex/Repentance/Sheep will cause other classes to sit just as much as warlocks. And before the "lol ur guild sucks" i should add that we hit BT before the attunement drop and Sunwell well before the patch with this philosophy.

Couple questions:
1) Who sheeps anything these days?
2) I agree that having an offhealer class is beneficial, but that would mean replacing the bad healer who can't play, not always bringing an offhealer to compensate.

[Gumber]

Well then I suppose I hold a different opinion of raid dps than the rest of you. Maybe you are all on high population raiding servers? We have a hard time getting butts into the seats on my server, so the whole "Warlock vs Mage vs Shaman" problem has never been an issue unless the DPS output was not inline with gear/spec.

My policy has always been "if you can keep up, you can come" and there will always be a class that sits in favor of specific abilities. Hex/Repentance/Sheep will cause other classes to sit just as much as warlocks. And before the "lol ur guild sucks" i should add that we hit BT before the attunement drop and Sunwell well before the patch with this philosophy.

Couple questions:
1) Who sheeps anything these days?
2) I agree that having an offhealer class is beneficial, but that would mean replacing the bad healer who can't play, not always bringing an offhealer to compensate.

to debate I will mention that your statements are based on BC raiding in which Locks did have a DPS advantage to make up for a lack of utility

[Screecher]

lol last night we had to threw a hunter out of the raid because he was doing 900 dps and below the tank.. maybe we should just turn off the meters and blame the healer?

[gherkin]

to debate I will mention that your statements are based on BC raiding in which Locks did have a DPS advantage to make up for a lack of utility

lol last night we had to threw a hunter out of the raid because he was doing 900 dps and below the tank.. maybe we should just turn off the meters and blame the healer?

This is what I said about keeping up. Below the tank is not keeping up.

If everyone in the raid is doing 8% dps and there you are doing 3% with the tanks, you're out.
If everyone in the raid is doing 8% dps and there you are doing 7%, I'll check your gear/spec.
If 2 classes in the raid are doing 13% dps and the rest are doing 5%, I might be more inclined to bring the first 2 classes more.

So I ask you this: As 0/40/31 or whatever the build is, and out of a possible maximum 15 dps slots, what rank were you on damage done and dps, boss fights only? Who was above you? Who was below you?

Lets look at this rationally.

[V]

@gherkin
I am actually not on a really high pop server as a matter of fact there are only ever about 2 srs raiding guilds per faction on mine at one time (for 25 man content at least, 10 mans has nicely opened up a lot of options for less srs guilds which i agree with). And as for getting butts into seats we 20-22 manned our first heroic raids, and are still forced to do it regularly. To me this just means it's that much more important for ppl to pull their weight and strive to excel and be useful.
And yes we made bt and sunwell prenerf too.currently working for horde server firsts, altho that ship may have sailed on nax since half our core took time off.

[gatgat]

Is my guilds lock just really good or something?

Reading this thread I would think locks suck, yet our lock never falls out of the top 3 in damage done on any fight. Is it just that affi is good and the other specs suck?

[Lumusnoctis]

So I ask you this:  As 0/40/31 or whatever the build is, and out of a possible maximum 15 dps slots, what rank were you on damage done and dps, boss fights only?  Who was above you?  Who was below you?

Lets look at this rationally.

As 0/41/30 in decent gear i was usually 3-8 place (in 25) on dps in naxx and archavon and stuff (on bosses) with about 2.5-2.7k dps. this will be lower now.. so i will have to respec when this patch hits.
Usually I am top 3 in 10 man.

[gherkin]

Mentioning a less than full compliment of raiders might have given me pause :P

Yes, in a situation where you are going for heroic achievements or are just simply short people, ever point matters.

However, I have to counter-argue: Given that demo has been said to be the lowest dps, why were you this spec vs a destruction spec? It seems counterproductive to raid hard core "every second matters" with the lowest dps spec a lock has?

Is my guilds lock just really good or something?

Reading this thread I would think locks suck, yet our lock never falls out of the top 3 in damage done on any fight. Is it just that affi is good and the other specs suck?

If the lock is good enough to pull it off, yes affliction is just that good.

[Lumusnoctis]

Demo spec was also the most gear friendly spec imo, it gave u high crit even with 80 blues, allowing you to start stacking hit without alot of crit loss.

[V]

Is my guilds lock just really good or something?

Reading this thread I would think locks suck, yet our lock never falls out of the top 3 in damage done on any fight. Is it just that affi is good and the other specs suck?

Warlocks do not suck. We are admittedly over qqing given that there have been major changes. Yes afflic is that good IF you have skill, and its showing that some ppl never had any but owned pve with sb spam. the problem really is that blizzard keeps changing incorrect things and nerfing us further or leaving us 0 options if we want to do good dmg.

[V]

Mentioning a less than full compliment of raiders might have given me pause :P

Yes, in a situation where you are going for heroic achievements or are just simply short people, ever point matters.

However, I have to counter-argue: Given that demo has been said to be the lowest dps, why were you this spec vs a destruction spec? It seems counterproductive to raid hard core "every second matters" with the lowest dps spec a lock has?


If the lock is good enough to pull it off, yes affliction is just that good.

Im sorry but i must debunk your counter-argue I have yet to spec anything but afflic for raiding in wrath =p I have however researched the once seemingly viable 0/41/30 0/40/31 specs on consideration of possibly trying them. As matter of fact none of our locks have spec'd it. And we all do good dps, with me still trailing behind due half the log in time this month >.< and thus half the others gear

[geonexus]

i was under the impression that they wanted to get demonology locks back into being raid viable. rather than nerfing the demonology tree.

[Gumber]

However, I have to counter-argue: Given that demo has been said to be the lowest dps, why were you this spec vs a destruction spec? It seems counterproductive to raid hard core "every second matters" with the lowest dps spec a lock has?

0/41/30 "was" actually a better DPS than a Destro build at current gear levels. +Crit is the red headed step child with LK Locks... where do u put it? Spirit, SP, new Hit cap... where the hell does crit fit in. Bingo, the 10% crit allowed locks to maintain a 20%+ crit needed to make destro spells viable in raids. 15% will not.

that's what it really boils down too

[gherkin]

@V: Ah, this I can agree with. We're in the same boat. Maybe I'm just confused - while I enjoy the prospect of other specs and am glad other people do so, I don't understand QQ when the said spec is already the "non-serious raider" spec, and thus it doesn't seem to matter as much.

Don't get me wrong, theres multiple levels of "serious raider" and people can do what they want, but if you're getting bent out of shape over a dps nerf, then why are you raiding with the least dps spec? It's an oxymoron.

As 0/41/30 in decent gear i was usually 3-8 place (in 25) on dps in naxx and archavon and stuff (on bosses) with about 2.5-2.7k dps. this will be lower now.. so i will have to respec when this patch hits.
Usually I am top 3 in 10 man.

I have a spreadsheet indicating 2500 dps for this spec in a 60% Naxx10 gear set/heroics/craftables. This number decreases to 2390. So 5% crit and 3% spell power from your pet translates to 110dps.


Optimistic Thought: Maybe by decreasing the amount of spell power we're getting from pets, they're going to increase the stamina/intellect of our pets for PVP. Thus they need to nerf one talent in order to buff the other.
/pray

[gherkin]

0/41/30 "was" actually a better DPS than a Destro build at current gear levels. +Crit is the red headed step child with LK Locks... where do u put it? Spirit, SP, new Hit cap... where the hell does crit fit in. Bingo, the 10% crit allowed locks to maintain a 20%+ crit needed to make destro spells viable in raids. 15% will not.

that's what it really boils down too

So what you're saying is that people are upset because the "low dps" tree allowed you to bypass the "medium dps" tree due to gear restrictions.

And IMO Demonology has always been viable. It's the fights that were not conducive to the spec (pet dying all the time).

[Nicarras]

0/41/30 "was" actually a better DPS than a Destro build at current gear levels. +Crit is the red headed step child with LK Locks... where do u put it? Spirit, SP, new Hit cap... where the hell does crit fit in. Bingo, the 10% crit allowed locks to maintain a 20%+ crit needed to make destro spells viable in raids. 15% will not.

that's what it really boils down too

Technically, if played right, destro out damaged it. Problem is too many bad locks cant handle backdraft and conflag.

[V]

@gherkin- While i see your point and can't hands on speak for the actual dps out put (i use spreadsheets but never decide on something until tested extensively) of the heavy demo specs my problem was basically blizz failed to do what it should have. there is also that I know some warlocks in a very srs progression guild, all content cleared and farming currently, and they had specced demo/destro hybrids. I haven't discussed much with them and what not but seemingly it scaled very well with gear and could out dps afflic. As they simply are not permitted to spec anything but highest dps.

And yes there are many lvls of srs raider. I fall a little over halfway between live eats breaths raids, and could go without logging and and caring.