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  1. #1

    DK tank maintaining threat issues

    As the title indicates the tank dk in our raidteam has some problems with threat. For example this night on Iron Qon 10man after a tank swap our warriortank can barely touch the boss or he'll overaggro from our DK. He has to consistently disable autoattack and shadowmeld to make sure he's not overaggroing after a tankswap.

    I'm not yet able to post links according to mmo, if you can take the time to go to them manually it would be very appreciated, our guild is called Symbiotic on EU-Stormrage.

    Any thoughts on what he should do to improve his threat?

  2. #2
    Mechagnome
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    moar runestrike.

    OT maybe he needs to cap hit/expertise? does the warr have crazy vengeance? is the warr much higher gear?

  3. #3
    Moderator Nyanmaru's Avatar
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    Can you be a bit more specific at what tank swap it happens? (how long it is into the encounter) and als ask your DK how he "prepares" a swap.

  4. #4
    Mechagnome Italiandk's Avatar
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    I think the main issue is Vengeance, but I see also your DK tank is a bit low on expertise, raising it would help him to make more threat.
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  5. #5
    taunt-> drw->rs->hs/ds->rs
    2-3 hits from the boss and you have enough vengeance to hold aggro easy

  6. #6
    Guess ill borrow this thread, im having the exact same problem.
    Since ToT started ive been having huge problems with threat against the other tank (guardian druid).
    Im trying to save as many RS as possible before taunt and enough blood taps to do one extra DS and it have become such a huge problem that he cant even melee swing anymore and he is currently doubling my DPS aswell. At the end off a boss fight im currently on 65-70k dps and he is around 110-120k
    Does any one know anything i could try that can atleest fix my threat issue?
    Im already hit/exp(soft) capped so im not missing any hits.

    eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/stormscale/Rasmosaurus/simple

  7. #7
    Moderator Nyanmaru's Avatar
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    Same reasoning as mentioned in the other threads. His tank-stats are offensive stats. Yours are defensive stats.
    Even if you bank RP and unleash your RS, they are meaningless if he's at 3 times your crit chance and 4 times your attack power...

    If he waits for his vengeance to drop, his DpS will drop too but you won't have issues with tank swaps anymore. Just tell him to get that ancient addon called "Omen" and tell him he's not allowed to do any damage to the boss while you are tanking if a) his TpS is higher than yours and b) his threat level is higher than yours. If not being stupid and watching his threat is a problem for him there's nothing to help in this situation...

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasmosaurus View Post
    At the end off a boss fight im currently on 65-70k dps and he is around 110-120k
    That seems awfully low. It depends on the fight of course, but if I see that I end a current tier fight at 65k dps then I'm disappointed in myself.
    Are you tracking your vengeance? Just having the number somewhere easily visible on your screen goes a long way towards improving your dps; you'll just instinctively push more of your attacks into periods of high vengeance.

    While it's true that he could likely pull off of you with ease immediately after a swap and as a tank he should be managing aggro over pushing deeps, I wouldn't put the blame on him entirely.

    Are you using AMS aggressively? Using Outbreak during DRW if you don't need it for anything else? Refreshing diseases just before a tank swap and letting them roll until <5 seconds left before refreshing? A lot of little things can really add up. You don't need to sacrifice any kind of survival to push dps.
    On a lot of fights I pull the boss for ~3 seconds and then the other tank takes over and we continue the fight as normal, just so I have vengeance up for a bit that I otherwise wouldn't.
    Last edited by Kiqjaq; 2013-04-05 at 10:24 AM.

  9. #9
    Dancing Rune Weapon Glyph helps alot on threat build. Usually when i taunt boss i pop it up so the other tank dont overagro. Ofc if the other tank is not careful it will overagro you, it's really hard to stop a vengeance stacked tank in terms of agro, omen addon helps in that.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyanmaru View Post
    Same reasoning as mentioned in the other threads. His tank-stats are offensive stats. Yours are defensive stats.
    Even if you bank RP and unleash your RS, they are meaningless if he's at 3 times your crit chance and 4 times your attack power...

    If he waits for his vengeance to drop, his DpS will drop too but you won't have issues with tank swaps anymore. Just tell him to get that ancient addon called "Omen" and tell him he's not allowed to do any damage to the boss while you are tanking if a) his TpS is higher than yours and b) his threat level is higher than yours. If not being stupid and watching his threat is a problem for him there's nothing to help in this situation...
    Well his crit is more like 6 times higher (raid buffed) then me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kiqjaq View Post
    That seems awfully low. It depends on the fight of course, but if I see that I end a current tier fight at 65k dps then I'm disappointed in myself.
    Are you tracking your vengeance? Just having the number somewhere easily visible on your screen goes a long way towards improving your dps; you'll just instinctively push more of your attacks into periods of high vengeance.

    While it's true that he could likely pull off of you with ease immediately after a swap and as a tank he should be managing aggro over pushing deeps, I wouldn't put the blame on him entirely.

    Are you using AMS aggressively? Using Outbreak during DRW if you don't need it for anything else? Refreshing diseases just before a tank swap and letting them roll until <5 seconds left before refreshing? A lot of little things can really add up. You don't need to sacrifice any kind of survival to push dps.
    On a lot of fights I pull the boss for ~3 seconds and then the other tank takes over and we continue the fight as normal, just so I have vengeance up for a bit that I otherwise wouldn't.
    Whats an decent amount of DPS? Would i gain any DPS if i would switch to something else then blood tap? I dont got an vengeance addon currently but ill take your advice and download one. Doing outbreak on 90% of the DRW and im refreshing the dots when my BB proc and i got CD on DnD but if it wont proc while DnD is on CD ill refresh them around 5- sec left. And im currently not using AMS only to gain runic power, often use it for survival for example on jinrokh i save it to absorb an static shock so the druid tank can go kitty during an pool an go up to 250k-300k dmg.
    It's allways me that starts tanking since he is going kitty/wrath with HOTW.

  11. #11
    Moderator Nyanmaru's Avatar
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    DRW Glyph doesn't really help. Especially not if you pop it right away. If you wanted to make it count, you'd have to wait at least for 3-4 hits by the boss (~10 seconds) before you pop it to get any meaningful threat increase. But again, at that stage your vengeance is high enough to keep the other tank from closing in on you too.

    The situation is pretty simple:
    a) Either you have vengeance and threat doesn't matter anymore.
    b) Or you have no vengeance and the other tank does 3-4 times your TpS.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rasmosaurus View Post
    Well his crit is more like 6 times higher (raid buffed) then me.
    Yeah, I just pulled a number out of my hat to make the difference a bit more visual for anyone else that's following and has no Druid numbers to compare.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasmosaurus View Post
    Whats an decent amount of DPS? Would i gain any DPS if i would switch to something else then blood tap? I dont got an vengeance addon currently but ill take your advice and download one. Doing outbreak on 90% of the DRW and im refreshing the dots when my BB proc and i got CD on DnD but if it wont proc while DnD is on CD ill refresh them around 5- sec left. And im currently not using AMS only to gain runic power, often use it for survival for example on jinrokh i save it to absorb an static shock so the druid tank can go kitty during an pool an go up to 250k-300k dmg.
    It's allways me that starts tanking since he is going kitty/wrath with HOTW.
    - iirc for Tank DpS: Runic Empowerement > Blood Tap > Runic Corruption (by small margins)
    - Vengeance Addon: WeakAuras is great for displaying any kind of buffs you have.
    - Your disease/DnD usage sounds good.
    - Death Siphon and Soul Reaper should take priority if survival is not an issue (2x HS is only a small increase over DS so it may not be worth it)
    - Abuse boss mechanics that damage you for additional vengeance, standing in the fire means doing more DpS.
    - AotD is fun to use with a high vengeance stack
    - Pool runes for maximum DRW DpS usage
    Last edited by Nyanmaru; 2013-04-05 at 11:04 AM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Spiritvs View Post
    Dancing Rune Weapon Glyph helps alot on threat build. Usually when i taunt boss i pop it up so the other tank dont overagro. Ofc if the other tank is not careful it will overagro you, it's really hard to stop a vengeance stacked tank in terms of agro, omen addon helps in that.
    Guess its worth a shot but dont really like the idea of losing some dps.

  13. #13
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    I think Dk:s are really behind in threat generation, we also have similiar issues in our raids. We have druid as mt and dk as ot, and he also uses the Dancing rune weapon glyph for more threat and it is not helping that much, unless druidtank stops dps completely.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasmosaurus View Post
    Whats an decent amount of DPS? Would i gain any DPS if i would switch to something else then blood tap? I dont got an vengeance addon currently but ill take your advice and download one. Doing outbreak on 90% of the DRW and im refreshing the dots when my BB proc and i got CD on DnD but if it wont proc while DnD is on CD ill refresh them around 5- sec left. And im currently not using AMS only to gain runic power, often use it for survival for example on jinrokh i save it to absorb an static shock so the druid tank can go kitty during an pool an go up to 250k-300k dmg.
    It's allways me that starts tanking since he is going kitty/wrath with HOTW.
    Blood Tap is fine. We don't want to screw with your survival, so playstyle adjustments should suffice over drastic spec changes anyways.

    Just use a simple WeakAura or something for vengeance. It's always nice to have the number around so you can better judge things. It's not always amazing, but one time I can easily recall it helping is Sha of Fear (N). When you get carried to the add platform, you have around 3 seconds before your vengeance falls from 80k to 20k, so get an Outbreak off in that time and don't refresh for a long while and you can do a bit better damage than you otherwise would.

    AMS though you should definitely abuse. As always, never blow it if you could need it later, but a lot of the time it's just a helpful little filler.
    AMS dots that don't need to be AMSed or raidwide aoe that's not even a threat. Horridon second door, the poison dot isn't threatening, but then neither is anything else magical. AMS it if you have a free GCD that you'd like to fill with a Rune Strike.
    Rockfall on Tortos is surprisingly lightning charged, which makes it count as magical damage. AMS the 40k ticks as you dodge the circles, because why not? (could go whole hog and take a rockfall to the face standing in the circle, if you're not actively tanking something...)
    AMS Durumu's maze. Because why the **** not?

    Little things like that. AMS is a very flexible tool, don't be afraid to use it offensively if you won't need it for survival.

    Also, I don't recommend the Glyph of DRW. All the damage that the Rune Weapon does counts as threat for you anyways, so you shouldn't need any more than base DRW to hold aggro.
    Last edited by Kiqjaq; 2013-04-05 at 11:22 AM.

  15. #15
    Moderator Nyanmaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galethos View Post
    I think Dk:s are really behind in threat generation, we also have similiar issues in our raids. We have druid as mt and dk as ot, and he also uses the Dancing rune weapon glyph for more threat and it is not helping that much, unless druidtank stops dps completely.
    Same thing happens with other offtanks too. You can't beat someone in TpS that has multiple times your Attack Power.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyanmaru View Post
    Same thing happens with other offtanks too. You can't beat someone in TpS that has multiple times your Attack Power.
    I maintank as monk, ot is DK.
    When he taunts off me I can't do anything or I overaggro. When I taunt off him he can still continue his rotation no problem. Even when he does get vengeance I'm still able to overaggro without issues, just few lucky crits.. Yesterday after over 10 secs of doing nothing, my hits still were decreasing the gap between us by 2-5% per hit.. It got to a point where I just autoattack the boss for majority of the time he's tanking or live in constant fear of overaggroing..
    And I won't even mention AoE threat.. or rather it's lack on DKs..
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  17. #17
    Brewmaster WskyDK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galethos View Post
    I think Dk:s are really behind in threat generation, we also have similiar issues in our raids. We have druid as mt and dk as ot, and he also uses the Dancing rune weapon glyph for more threat and it is not helping that much, unless druidtank stops dps completely.
    A big part of the issue is that there's a large population of DK's who don't pool properly knowing a tank switch is coming. (also huge stacks of vengeance make it an uphill battle)

  18. #18
    would just like to point out that currently dk tanks do NOT go for expertise hardcap, druids warriors and monks SHOULD be going for expertise hardcap, this isn't a huge issue if you play your dk properly and time your high threat abilities for a tank switch however it does make it slightly harder if the other tank is still going full rotation with crazy high vengeance stacks

    edit: typo

  19. #19
    Our MT is a blood dk and have never had a problem. I think it just comes down to playing correctly...

  20. #20
    High Overlord Mr.Pineapple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linnea View Post
    As the title indicates the tank dk in our raidteam has some problems with threat. For example this night on Iron Qon 10man after a tank swap our warriortank can barely touch the boss or he'll overaggro from our DK. He has to consistently disable autoattack and shadowmeld to make sure he's not overaggroing after a tankswap.

    I'm not yet able to post links according to mmo, if you can take the time to go to them manually it would be very appreciated, our guild is called Symbiotic on EU-Stormrage.

    Any thoughts on what he should do to improve his threat?
    he should be soft capped (7.5h/7.5e) at the very least if he isn't already. otherwise glyphing for DRW and popping it on the first taunt can push threat meters out of range of the 1-2 attack range aka, OOPS I CRIT TAUNT THAT SHIT range. the first couple taunts can be tricky for any tank because a single hit with the redic vengeance these days can easily steal back agro. make sure your OT knows to chill on the first swap, i know i sometimes have to stop auto attacking and my OT is certainly not a bad player by any means.

    gl;hf
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