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  1. #1

    The next few months in Northrend

    So...we've got some hard data on PVP and its pretty well what the beta, theorycrafters, and community at large expected. Blizz is now not admitting they were wrong per se but at least committing to fixing it. Given its a big problem it may take awhile and compound the problem due to gearing gap in the meantime.

    Let's look just a little further down the road....soon the Uldar instance will open a whole new level of gear. If history and math are any indicators the dmg will continue to outpace the survival stats. Great for taking down a boss with literally millions of hitpoints. When turned on a player w' about 20K HP its like shooting a human w' an artillery shell.

    So if anything the burst will get even more intense as uldar gear makes it mainstream. Yes it will be harder content blizz bleats but the gear will still make it out. If T4 to T5 scaling is any indicator get ready for a big jump. This puts PVP in an odd place since soon no class will survive burst. In a nutshell everyone will be so OP there will be nothing left to pvp (remember quake/unreal tournament servers w' stupid high dmg mods or diablo 2 LOD pvp?)

    That puts blizz in a bad spot to either put a global nerf on PVP dmg (very easy in BG/Arena, not so easy on PVP servers). Could also do the change w' gear but that gear would be so imbalanced you shouldn't be able to use it outside of an arena. Again, easily doable in dedicated pvp zones but sticky in terms of PVP server world environment.

    With melee having burst approximating a raid boss I really don't see it getting any nicer when the higher dps gear from PVE progression content trickles into the ever burstier world of arenas. I can't believe with all the "we like to take it slow and analyze things" they missed this one. Who knows, maybe uldar items will have their ilvl budget spent entirely on survival stats while keeping dps stats basically static vs T7? Maybe the encounters will be all about surviving aoe/random raid dmg hell ala sunwell. I'm sure we can expect at least one "najentus" HP kaboom check but we'll see about the rest.

    So where are we going in terms of arena as ever nastier items come from instances?

    /discuss
    User has been banned permanently for trolling.

  2. #2
    cooms
    Guest

    Re: The next few months in Northrend

    the only way blizzard could have stopped this was allowing people to get the pvp blues right away at 80...that could have atleast lessened the blow. In order to combat what they have done the only solution in my mind would be to make it so only pvp gear in pvp places and only pve gear in pve places (i am of course speaking more in terms of arena). If you notice most of the higher teams are people with a lot of naxx 25(a lot of people have that stuff but still some dont) and much like the OP said the gear will possibly still out dps the survivability that the pvp gear can provide. Im not sure what they will do or what the can do that wont cause an even bigger uproar against their "e-sport".


  3. #3

    Re: The next few months in Northrend

    I registered just to make this comment:

    A highly RNG based PvP system as an e-sport is laughable, at best. There are so many glaring flaws in a game where a skill/spell's RNG roll can, and most of the time will, cause a win/loss regardless of player skill.

  4. #4

    Re: The next few months in Northrend

    It's called "resilience". It gimps burst. Badly.


    Get some.


    If you're a resto druid, I feel for you. After LB facerolling, being actually killable below 1800 on good battlegroups must be a shock.

  5. #5

    Re: The next few months in Northrend

    Raiding can be fixed by adjusting boss difficulty in the new instances coming out. And pvp/arena can be fixed by giving resilience a higher damage mitigation factor. There ya go. Don't make it more complicated than it is.

  6. #6

    Re: The next few months in Northrend

    Quote Originally Posted by lrs078
    (remember quake/unreal tournament servers w' stupid high dmg mods or diablo 2 LOD pvp?)
    I poured 70 high runes into an "Auradin" that literally killed everyone in 1 second if they were on my screen. Stacked nothing but the best gear that added fire/frost/holy damage auras, and specced into nothing but resistance reduction and whatever the charge ability was called. Since it was spammable, I could blurr around the screen at 1000% run speed killing people before my little sprite loaded on their screen.

    Also,

    Quote Originally Posted by Adys
    Thread wasn't bad. Here's a 1 week ban for the "/discuss" part. Leaving it open if people still want to talk about the actual subject.
    What the hell? 1 out of 3,000 posts on these forums are constructive, and this was sort of one of them. Why would you ban the OP for such a trivial reason? Everyone blames the general stupidity of the users for the lack of quality in MMO-Champion threads, but I blame you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Il1dan
    Sorry bro but it is mmo-champion the #1 QQ web site on the net

  7. #7

    Re: The next few months in Northrend

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky_
    It's called "resilience". It gimps burst. Badly.


    Get some.


    If you're a resto druid, I feel for you. After LB facerolling, being actually killable below 1800 on good battlegroups must be a shock.

    resilience doesn't do jack. people aren't stacking crit like before its ap they stack. resil doesn't affect non crits.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasputine
    Second, the Draenei used a dimensional ship powered by the holy snowflakes, which utilizes a plot-hole drive engine.

  8. #8

    Re: The next few months in Northrend

    Morbid Curiosity, what is the diffrence of saying "start discussing and the Bannable Slashy "Discus"?

    Seems blizz isnt the only system out there with flaws.

    And my Spealing is Flawed too.

  9. #9

    Re: The next few months in Northrend

    interesting observation op.

    /reply
    www.myspace.com/curseofdoom

    ...Warlock Hip-Hop To Melt Wax and Face...

  10. #10

    Re: The next few months in Northrend

    Quote Originally Posted by geonexus

    resilience doesn't do jack. people aren't stacking crit like before its ap they stack. resil doesn't affect non crits.
    How about tweaking resil so that it mitigates non-crit damage from players? That seems like the most obvious and unobtrusive solution.

  11. #11

    Re: The next few months in Northrend

    Quote Originally Posted by underdogba
    How about tweaking resil so that it mitigates non-crit damage from players? That seems like the most obvious and unobtrusive solution.
    like mama always said:
    "Depending on gear to balance baseline issues is like putting a fresh coat of paint over a rusty car."

    true story.

    /reply
    www.myspace.com/curseofdoom

    ...Warlock Hip-Hop To Melt Wax and Face...

  12. #12

    Re: The next few months in Northrend

    problem lies in ilvl

    for example t3 gear was ~ilvl 90 aka 150% of our lvl
    tier 6 ~150 means over 200% of our lvl
    now tier 7 which isnt even endgame gear ( as we will most likely see 1 or 2 more tiers) is 200-213 meaning 250% of our lvl (aproximetly i cba to make maths)

    Blizz simply overdid the gear in tbc and now wotlk pays for it...
    they cant just decrease stamina on item budget cause it wont solve anything in long run
    nor they can buff resilience cause it will break alot of things present in pvp starting on crits ending at mana drains
    Quote Originally Posted by Darhaja
    bad math ur doing 1.5.... its 150%* sooo 100 haste rating = 250 after the buff* or 300 haste rating 150% = 750 haste dunno how u got 1.5 or 15% anywhere its giving u 150% more haste from the haste u already have why do ppl try to always complicate things.

  13. #13

    Re: The next few months in Northrend

    Quote Originally Posted by underdogba
    How about tweaking resil so that it mitigates non-crit damage from players? That seems like the most obvious and unobtrusive solution.
    so resil becomes armor?

  14. #14

    Re: The next few months in Northrend

    I am predicting "Sunwell Radiance II: Players have an increased 25% chance to miss their targets..."
    The grass is always greener - The times were always better

  15. #15

    Re: The next few months in Northrend

    Noooo Tigercat's signature is gone! that was such a epic thread too . Anyways, I can see where the OP was going with his point and am curious what blizzard will do. In all honesty, I hope they scrap arena. I know i know, its crazy and prolly wont ever happen, but if they did that it would get rid of sooooo much QQ. I totally agree with the other poster who basically said you cant have a e-sport that runs off a Random Number Generator. At a point it will be not skill that wins a match but luck. Luck to get that random crit. This has been proven in the fact that crit is being stacked less in favor of other stats. Im just kind of tired of getting this feeling that blizzard is torn between the QQ in PvE and the QQ in PvP arena. Trying to balance one to the other is kinda rediculas. To follow up with that last point let me add, its not impossible, just rediculas.
    You lookin for a fair and balanced game? One that's totally about the player skill and non of the extra flair and dazzle? Well try "PONG", this beauty is a timeless classic and is proudly supported by the "Stop feeding the Trolls Union 105"

  16. #16

    Re: The next few months in Northrend

    resilience seems outdated.
    blizz holds the ideal that it should be possible to balance the game for pvp and pve simultaneously (no copouts like making players always do 25% less damage to players). i think that's a bit impractical. certainly it can be done, but it seems like it would take a LOT of changes. to itemization, talents, abilities, probably even boss fights, etc.

    imo blizz SHOULD just give players a debuff when they are in a battleground or arena: takes x% less damage, takes x% less healing (would have to take less healing as well so that healing isn't OP) but blizz will never do it. they are too idealistic.

    ulduar will certainly screw it up even more. stack full t8.5 on a ret pally and he needs no resilience, the match will be over before his bubble wears off. i doubt they will itemize the offensive stats the same as t7 while only buffing survivability, that makes no sense. surely both survivability and damage output will increase.

    buffing resil won't help when you die in 5 seconds without being crit once.

  17. #17

    Re: The next few months in Northrend

    it could easily be fixable by arena gear having its armor doubled and trippled for some classes and also add resistances to gear for some classes.

    also adding more stam to arena gear would also help.

    /reply

  18. #18

    Re: The next few months in Northrend

    Quote Originally Posted by lrs078
    That puts blizz in a bad spot to either put a global nerf on PVP dmg (very easy in BG/Arena, not so easy on PVP servers). Could also do the change w' gear but that gear would be so imbalanced you shouldn't be able to use it outside of an arena. Again, easily doable in dedicated pvp zones but sticky in terms of PVP server world environment.
    I've always thought resilience should also be a base stat much like defense, maybe with some overall damage reduction from player damage added to it. The idea here is to make a distinction between players and mobs much like hero units in Warcraft III took less damage from spells and had debuffs lasting shorter on them.
    The other idea would be to nerf damage numbers across the board and reduce mob HP accordingly.
    The last thing I'd want to see is stamina getting inflated on items yet again.

  19. #19

    Re: The next few months in Northrend

    Surely there are many ways in which to solve the apparent problem; and suffice to say it will have to be a combination of the suggestions I am about to make.
    Firstly if people do not survive ‘burst’ then one must look at stats which allow for survival (my logic here will be displayed below). Now given that we don’t want to make every player a tank what with defence and dodge and the like, it would leave potentially two stats, stamina and resilience. If (and we ignore or up the budget of each item exclusively for these stats) we increase the amount of say stamina or resilience on current gear by a certain percentage, or increase their overall effectiveness on the character then one would be able (when done by enough) to survive burst damage.

    The consequence of such an action would be that people start finding it easier and easier to survive in PvE in which case it would be sensible to up the damage of raid encounters and the average mob, to levels which reflect the current PvE environment.

    This change would nullify the burst damage of characters by whatever necessary integer, and would also not, if the PvE changes where made, effect the skill levels required at the moment in raiding.

    Now, some of you might think we could do the opposite, and reduce the stats on gear, reduce the damage output of certain classes and reduce the health of certain bosses while leaving stamina in place, or something of the like. In this case what then comes to pass is that we find ourselves in an extension of The Burning Crusade raiding, with Tier six gear being used actively in the current raiding environment and with Sunwell gear being on par with epics within WOLTK. This I don’t think is the right direction to head in for the reasons just stated.

  20. #20

    Re: The next few months in Northrend

    Was traveling over the holidays so hardly noticed the ban. That said...I am a partner in a web business which has an online forum. I linked this thread as a "this is what NOT to do" for some of my mods and we had a chuckle. Truth is most moderators are just enthusiastic fans who have worked an "in" w' the powers that be. You get what you pay for... The trouble is it can really hurt a website by running off good contributors so you get more dregs which leads to more bans thus a nasty cycle. I don't know if mentioning that is some type of banable offense but there are plenty of other forums out there. If you want to report on a moderator usually the webmaster or other moderators is a good place to start but w/o knowing the org here its hard to say....

    As for the uldar/future issue....if you look at stats and dmg output you are having players getting near the stats of an elite (be it dungeon, world environment, etc) mob. Except instead of baseline AI and some simple skills they have huge stuns, actual intelligence (at least in theory), and a bunch of nasty abilities to complicate it. As history has taught us a cloth class can tank a caster mob somewhat w' healer support but is instagibbed vs any sort of melee elite (ala pulling aggro splat syndrome).

    The situation can be previewed now...just visit wintergrasp when one side is severely outnumbered.

    I'm sure blizz has a bucket of creative solutions though which route to go? The aura "reduced dmg to/from other players by xx" is one route. Having PVP only gear for PVP environments is another. Could introduce another stat that reduces dmg from other players by a %.

    Until then I'm doing arenas only w' a pally so I can live 15 seconds....BoP ftw! (am I allowed to use the term "ftw"? oh well...)
    User has been banned permanently for trolling.

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