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  1. #1

    Tank as a DK vs Feral Druid

    I was a Druid, Natgul, on Hakkar EU Server, and i was MT in all TBC, with Huge Armor, Max HP, a 55-60% dodge in raid.

    Now i have a DK, and i try to tank Heroic and OT raid using Frost and Unholy spec, deep and talented as Tank.

    From my point of view, and looking for the next pacth, there are some point for turn back my Druid as Tank or multiutility:

    1) Damage Incoming: An Unholy/Frost tank, have much miss-rate defenseve stat (def + lichborn every 3 mins), but during the encounter, when the IBF or BS/UA are in CD, the incoming damage is very high; Druid have a costant -12% damage from PotP, magical and physical, and a copy of IBF (not improved by def), named Barskin (usable when stunned of feared).

    2) The Lichborn antifear is equal at the Druid Berzerk;

    3) Blizz says they look for a new avoidance/mitigation utility for Druid, based on "?????", but great for matching the dodge (now, a friend of mine, have a similar level of my DK equip on his Druid, and in tank form have 42K hp in raid, 38% dodge, i reach only 36k buffed).

    4) The incoming nerf for BS and IBF, make the DK an extreme CD-based tank, and when cd are gone, bye bye dk...

    5) Blood is a terrible tank, have healing counter-mitigation ability, but the damage incoming is incredible, and not really mitigate...(thinking an AoE pull, 15k damage per second).

    I hope the new frost presence include a flat mitigation for physical damage, or we must pray the cd is ok when the blow coming in our face...

    DK have a great AoE DPS, great in 1 vs 1, but for tanking, at this moment, can't MT in raid.

  2. #2

    Re: Tank as a DK vs Feral Druid

    That's why blizzard is making DKs less of a CD tank and raising the passive abilities of DKs.

    They have already stated that DKs are probably the best tanks WITH all their CDs available. Without their CDs, DKs are more squishiy than other tanks.

  3. #3

    Re: Tank as a DK vs Feral Druid

    I'm MTing raids just fine. I'm stitting at 26k unbuffed, roughly 50% avoidance without Blade barrier so upped to 60% and I'm MTing Unholy. I just think you are terrible.
    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Tortheldrin&n=Attilian

    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Zul%27jin&n=Mormack

  4. #4

    Re: Tank as a DK vs Feral Druid

    Surprise: 20% increased armor IS flat physical mitigation, so I guess they're doing what you want in the next patch ;D



    ...now they just need to release it already ><

  5. #5

    Re: Tank as a DK vs Feral Druid

    While current content is so easy that you could probably MT it using a Hunter's pet, DKs are strictly inferior to Feral Druids, even after the patch. After the patch you're looking at having approximately the same armor but missing thousands of HP and 12% damage reduction while having only very slightly more avoidance .

  6. #6

    Re: Tank as a DK vs Feral Druid

    I wouldn't say inferior. They provide a lot more utility than ferals and can provide better DPS when needed than a feral. Ferals have a greater hp pool which is a bonus and have an easier time gearing with just gemming for stam and dodge.

    Both sides have their pros and cons, you can tell because every class can MT any raid in the game. If it was like TBC or Vanilla wow then only druids and warriors would be tanking now.

  7. #7

    Re: Tank as a DK vs Feral Druid

    The DK isn't inferior, the druid is simply superior.. to all.

    That's the problem, nerf them already.

  8. #8

    Re: Tank as a DK vs Feral Druid

    You guys are funny....I find Ferals the weakest tanks in the game...followed by Warriors, then DKs, then Paladins as the strongest. Paladins and other DKs are the only Tanks I feel comfortable running with in other 5 mans and I take less dmg in 10 and 25 mans than Warriors and a lot less in 5,10, and 25 mans than druids. Healers love me.

    Also before someone asks if I was a paladin Pre-Wrath...no, I was a warrior.

    EDIT: and as a change from the last post I made, I have roughly 40% unbuffed avoidance with 50% when Blade Barrier is up...oh well, I wasn't paying attention to the math
    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Tortheldrin&n=Attilian

    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Zul%27jin&n=Mormack

  9. #9

    Re: Tank as a DK vs Feral Druid

    Quote Originally Posted by Mormack
    You guys are funny....I find Ferals the weakest tanks in the game...followed by Warriors, then DKs, then Paladins as the strongest. Paladins and other DKs are the only Tanks I feel comfortable running with in other 5 mans and I take less dmg in 10 and 25 mans than Warriors and a lot less in 5,10, and 25 mans than druids. Healers love me.
    i also find it funny... considering your only experience in 10 and 25 men is sartharion.

    DKs still need some work on them to be competitive tanks in something more then 5men instances.
    (and no, im not counting sarth as an real raid instance, unless you got drakes left)

  10. #10

    Re: Tank as a DK vs Feral Druid

    Armory achievements can be such a bitch.. eh?

  11. #11

    Re: Tank as a DK vs Feral Druid

    Quote Originally Posted by MrNutty
    Surprise: 20% increased armor IS flat physical mitigation, so I guess they're doing what you want in the next patch ;D



    ...now they just need to release it already ><
    In the next pacth, 20% increase armor, isn't 20% mitigation, but 2-3% physical.
    IBF go down to a max 35-36%.

    Mixing Lichborn (15 sec) avoidance, IBF 18sec (if Frost) mitigation, and UA glyphed (20 sec increase physical mit.), we have a decent damage reduction in the first minute.
    After that, we need to wait for restore our defence for 22 sec, and damage don't wait anything.

    The incoming damage in DK form is too high. compared with Pally (actually the best tank), War and Druid.

    I think on this, i hope Blizz introduce some, or 1, decent passive ability for boost a bit our defence.

  12. #12

    Re: Tank as a DK vs Feral Druid

    Quote Originally Posted by antynius
    i also find it funny... considering your only experience in 10 and 25 men is sartharion.

    DKs still need some work on them to be competitive tanks in something more then 5men instances.
    (and no, im not counting sarth as an real raid instance, unless you got drakes left)
    Nah, I've downed bosses in Naxx on 10 man and yes, sarth is my only 25 man experience. I just haven't been in a raid for a full wing. I plan on getting arachnid and plague down with my guild's first 10 man naxx at least this weekend.
    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Tortheldrin&n=Attilian

    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Zul%27jin&n=Mormack

  13. #13

    Re: Tank as a DK vs Feral Druid

    Incoming damage is not too high. A DK will have more armor than a warrior or paladin wearing their sheilds and every other piece of gear being exactly the same. Our cooldowns are simply to make up for blocks, our avoidance is roughly 5-8% higher than a warrior or pally.

    Diminished avoidance against a level 83 raid boss, I have 52.12% avoidance. With another 10% for bladed barrier that I keep up at all times. If I was to look at the raw avoidance on my character tab (which is calculated before diminishing returns and against a level 80, I have 58.34%

    Just posting both figures since i'm not sure everyone here is smart enough to calculate diminished values. With my current armor, I am getting roughly 60% mitigation, my TDR value (Total Damage Reduction) is 84.67% on a raid boss.

    It has been calculated, with the changes on PTR (to both Frost presence and IBF), a frost DK will find the mitigation better all around, where an Unholy tank will find better mitgation again fast hard hits like patchwerk, but slower attacks will be SLIGHTLY more damage...but it will still be less spikey.

    It has also been calculated that a DK tank in it's current form will mitigate more damage than any other tank as long as the NPC hit's harder than 4500, after the patch that drops to about 4350.

    People who say DKs are the worst tank are just too closed minded, play with crappy geared DKs, or play with DKs that don't understand how to play.

  14. #14

    Re: Tank as a DK vs Feral Druid

    Well I tanked 10 man Sartharion last night in only two pieces of Heroic gear and I didn't have any problems, course it's 10 man and it's Sartharion, but...still...

    I *was* paranoid and frankly a coward of a tank after several bad runs, but now that I've gotten myself to around 40% avoidance and 27k unbuffed health...

    Dk's can tank just fine, and in the next patch we'll be awesome. And I'm Unholy.

  15. #15

    Re: Tank as a DK vs Feral Druid

    Quote Originally Posted by Natgul
    In the next pacth, 20% increase armor, isn't 20% mitigation, but 2-3% physical.
    IBF go down to a max 35-36%.

    Mixing Lichborn (15 sec) avoidance, IBF 18sec (if Frost) mitigation, and UA glyphed (20 sec increase physical mit.), we have a decent damage reduction in the first minute.
    After that, we need to wait for restore our defence for 22 sec, and damage don't wait anything.

    The incoming damage in DK form is too high. compared with Pally (actually the best tank), War and Druid.

    I think on this, i hope Blizz introduce some, or 1, decent passive ability for boost a bit our defence.
    Umm it's not a 2-3% reduction in dmg, it's more than that. If you're at about 60% reduction currently through your ac or so lets say it boosts you up to 65% reduction. That's not a 5% reduction in dmg like you're thinking with your post.

    At 60% you're only taking 40% of incoming melee dmg, at 65% you're only taking 35% incoming melee dmg. So actually you're taking 12.5% less incoming dmg as 35/40=.875.

    A 12.5% dmg reduction is rather large and noticeable. Saying dk tanks are the worst is just a misinformed statement. The only advantage wars/pals have over us is that they get shield block which lowers incoming dmg over the whole fight. Dk's advantage is that with smart cd use we have a much greater reduction in dmg over most of the fight, with us taking spikes of dmg in between our cd's.

    We just work in different ways, we're not worse than any of the tanks. You can't really say any tank is the best really as blizz has made them all so homogenized that really our incoming dmg is all rather similar.

    It actually would be interesting to see WWS's of boss fights of similar times with the different tanks mting for them and compare the dmg taken. I wouldn't be surprised if dk's take the least, it just seems like more cause we are more prone to spikes of dmg in between cd's.

    clicky for armory

  16. #16

    Re: Tank as a DK vs Feral Druid

    You just need to get some better gear.

    I am geared with emblem of heroism and a bit of naxx 10 mostly (not even in full epic yet) and I get better stats than my fellow druid tank who is equally geared:

    I got better avoidance, between 60 and 67% depending on fight, he is at 50-55% roughly.
    We got approximatly same average hits.
    My DTPS (Damage Taken by Seconds) is smaller than his (up to 2 time lower on some fight)
    The only downside is that I take bigger max hits, but not that much bigger and overall I take a lot less damage than him.

    I am talking about WowWebStats number, and on same mobs, main tanked by us (we run 2 Naxx 10, with me and the druid as MT on each one).


    With the incoming patch, my max hit will be lower, but I expect to see my overall damage to be higher because of the BS/IBF nerf; but it should still be lower than his.


    Of course druid have some thing to compensate, starting by their bigger HP pool.


    Oh, and the patch make us less dependant on CD, not more. IBF and UA/BS should be with the patch a great way to mitigate high spike of damage and not used everytime to be able to tank like we use them now.


    Some exemple of our last day of 2 Naxx 10:

    Anub'rekhan:
    Druid: DTPS: 1476, total avoidance: 49,2%, Max hit: 8986, Average: 4476
    Me: DTPS: 1088, total avoidance: 65,0%, Max hit: 8266, average hit: 5462

    Maexnaa:
    Druid: DTPS: 2603, total avoidance: 42,1%, Max hit: 11329, Average: 3692
    Me: DTPS: 1137, total avoidance: 69,1%, Max hit: 11686, average hit: 4609

    This fight is even more in my favor because when Maexxna stun, my 15,76% of being miss are still working ^^ (if you dont know how I get 15,76% of being miss here it is: 5,76% from def + 5% from any mob +3% from frigid breadplate +2% from elf racial).

  17. #17

    Re: Tank as a DK vs Feral Druid

    I've killed Sartharion with 3 drakes up a few times as the Sartharion tank without any gorillas helping me (if you don't know what I'm talking about, just skip this post). It's practically the only fight I'd take a DK as a tank over the other classes. DKs have the highest Avoidance, that's cool but doesn't really benefit us when Druids have higher armor and way more HP (I'm talking about at least 10% in current end game gear) and Warriors/Paladins are able to block lots of damage. The first time I actually survived Sartharion with 3 drakes was on our 3rd kill, the two kills before I died as soon as the drakes were dead and my cooldowns were down because he'd simply kill me in two swings while our Druid for example could easily survive three swings, that's a hell of a difference.

  18. #18

    Re: Tank as a DK vs Feral Druid

    Quote Originally Posted by GT4
    I've killed Sartharion with 3 drakes up a few times as the Sartharion tank without any gorillas helping me (if you don't know what I'm talking about, just skip this post). It's practically the only fight I'd take a DK as a tank over the other classes. DKs have the highest Avoidance, that's cool but doesn't really benefit us when Druids have higher armor and way more HP (I'm talking about at least 10% in current end game gear) and Warriors/Paladins are able to block lots of damage. The first time I actually survived Sartharion with 3 drakes was on our 3rd kill, the two kills before I died as soon as the drakes were dead and my cooldowns were down because he'd simply kill me in two swings while our Druid for example could easily survive three swings, that's a hell of a difference.
    Maybe if you had to choose between the 4 different tanking classes all of which are played by people of equal skill dk's might get the short end of the stick, but really the differences aren't so staggering that you should out right refuse to take a dk tank. Druids are always going to be able to absorb the most melee dmg (except for shears ) because of that huge hp pool and armor, but dk's are still great tanks and bring other tricks to fights the other classes don't. I know you're not really all doom and gloom about dk's like the op is though, and i do agree that dk's do need some tweaking, although personally i love how we work.

    It is funny though seeing all the guilds who before were so adamant about how dk's suck at tanking and no dk's are allowed to tank for them scrambling to gear out dk tanks now (often dk dpsers who are not the best tanks as it's not what they are used to) since currently we're the only class that can tank sarth with all 3 drakes up.

    clicky for armory

  19. #19

    Re: Tank as a DK vs Feral Druid

    You are sick if you think Druids have it better than DKs.

    Druids are so crappily itemized in this expansion that its basically a joke. The feral spec is BROKEN as hell, Blizzard knows this and they are trying to come up with a way to fix it, but the feral system is so FUBAR that they can't even come up with something that makes sense and will address the problem at hand.

    Go, level a druid to 80. Then go raid Naxx or something. As you sit there spamming swipe for 3 hours feel free to come back here and post about how shitty feral tanking is in light of your new found perspective on the class/spec.

    As said before I've run with tons of DK tanks without any issue, they are not broken you just need to know how to play the class to be successful *gasp*.
    Level 80 Draenei Shaman - http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Malorne&n=Sh%C3%A4mwow

  20. #20

    Re: Tank as a DK vs Feral Druid

    Itemization for Ferals is bad? WHAT? There are so many "feral" items in Naxx its not even funny. I won't even read the rest of your post because you're obviously an idiot.

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