Bear Dodge and Miss, our avoidance.

[Dooudad]

makeing a thread here due to the take over of the bear stats thread with talk of dodge and miss and the stats that bring us %'s of em.

Regarding the use of defense as a mitigation stat, and the point at which it's more useful than agi or dodge rating:

First: You have DR on each avoidance stat. Dodge, Parry, (Block?). It's unknown whether Miss has DR, last I heard.
Second: DR is separate for each avoidance stat.
Third: DR is based on stats, not talents, so 10% dodge from bear isn't factored into it.

Now, what was mentioned earlier, about defense passing dodge/agi as a pure avoidance stat is based on the idea that the miss from defense gains more value as the dodge from dodge/agi diminish.

IE, suppose you have 400 (arbitrary choice) budget to spend, defense, dodge, or agi.
39.35 dodge rating per 1% dodge at 80
~41.67 agi per 1% dodge as a bear
~4.92 defense rating per 1 defense, which converts to 0.04% dodge and 0.04% miss.

So, we'll compare dodge and defense, though agi and dodge rating are quite close anyways.
400 budget as dodge rating will give us approx 10.165% dodge, ignoring diminishing returns.
400 budget as defense will be approx 81.3 defense, which gets us 3.252% dodge and miss, total of 6.504% avoidance.

Obviously, dodge gets us the most in this situation.
Now, using the formulas here: http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t29453-c...gs_level_80_a/
(This is really rough napkin math, just trying to illuminate the idea fully)
If we total just 10% dodge, that dodge rating is worth around 9.5% dodge.
If we were at 10% when we equipped this 400 budget worth, we'd go from 9.5% to around 17.5%, IE an 8% gain.
If we were at 20%, we'd go from 17.5% to 24.42%, a gain of 6.92%.
30% worth of dodge, we'd end up with 30.4% after DR and the additional 10%ish. A gain of under 6%

So, let's say we're earning 0.6% dodge-per-1% of dodge-from-stats, which should occur around 40% from gear.
This also affects the dodge gained from defense, but it does not affect the miss chance.
So, 10% dodge becomes 6% dodge, but the defense we get 3.252% miss and 1.9512% dodge, 5.2032%.

In short, most people aren't going to be butting up against these right now, but I'd bet during ulduar the numbers start to turn in favor of defense.
Also, I may have mis-applied these a bit, so if you're really curious, get the function and plot it in some graphing software. There is a point where dodge rating/agi are worse-per-budget than avoidance, and if you start considering getting both on the same item, people can certainly already get more avoidance from that (not everyone, but some).

Hope that helps clear things up!

the orignal topic for this post can be found here... http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=31853.15

as rabbimojo sad bears get dodge from 3 stats agi, dodge rating, and defence rating.

he posted agi unbuffed by tallents or buffs (ie no sotf 6% stat increse and no kings 10% stat increse) here are the full dodge numbers;
41.67 agi for non speced bears (with out sotf)
39.31 agi for speced bears (with 3/3 sotf which all tanks should have)
35.73 agi for speced bears with kings buff at 10%

39.35 dodge rating gives you 1% dodge

Defense Rating
1 DefenseRating = 0.008% dodge and 0.008% chance to be missed and 0.008% reduced chance to be crit (Crit reduction not needed for PvE if you have SotF )
122.96 Defense Rating = 1% chance to dodge and 1% chance to be missed and 1% reduced chance to be crit (Crit reduction not needed for PvE if you have SotF )

1 DefRating = 0.64 DodgeRating (counting misses as dodges)
( numbers taken from http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t36999-feral_druid_numbers/ which was posted by RareBeast )

now these are base numbers and dont take into account the dr at higher %'s of dodge (and miss rateing).

?Question? what stat gives the best dodge for a druid? AGI, hands down if your a tank you will have 3/3 sotf you will have more dodge per point of agi then dodge rateing and way more then every defence rateing. This is before we even take into buffs from other classes once we do agi becomes an even more out standing winner in the question of what stat to go for.

?Question? will dodge rateing at some point over come AGI as a better stat due to dr? No, dodge's demishing returns is based upon how much % dodge you have from all 3 stats so at 45% dodge you will get just as much advatage going agi over dodge rateing as you would of at 35% dodge, now it will take more agi the higher you go per % but they scale together.

?Question? will defence rating at some point over come AGI as a better stat? Yes, at some point, is it possible to get there with stats? Dont know.

What we do know for sure is that miss = dodge in a 1% to 1% fassion, however they are on diffrent demishing returns so if you have 50% dodge and 2% chance to be missed the dr on dodge will be higher then your miss ratings dr.

So as to when you would get the most out of going for defence over agi, it is when you get a combined 1% of miss and or dodge off of defence points = to less then the value of the agi it would take to get 1% dodge from agi.

before dr it would take 61.48 defence rateing to get = to 1% combined medigation from dodge and miss rating. now you could get to a point where it took 80 agi to get 1% dodge, would mean 244 defence for that first point of dodge but your defence if low enough could squeek out 2% miss rateing in that %. so lets see, if it takes 2x as much stats at some point to get 1% dodge then that means our 61.48 defence rateing would give 0.25% dodge and 0.5% miss rate, 0.75% avoidance per 61 points, vs 1% avoidance per 80 points of agi.

i dont know how item budgets work, so if some one can post the facts of how much 1 defence rating on an item cost and how much 1 agi would cost on an item, i assume they are equivilent due to 1 gem giveing 16 defence or 16 agi.

as to those who cry noob when people get a defence gem, one thing they are good for is if you get the 12 sta 8 defence gem to count as a blue for our 2% meta, that is after all roughly 0.08% dodge and 0.08% miss per gem before dr with 12 sta and counts if you have no other blue gems as 1% armor increse and 16 sta when used to activate your meta. and cna keep you from loseing a socket bonus that required you to add a yellow gem. just because were uncrittable dosent mean that thats all a stat does for us.

[elapadrinar]

based on some threads i read a few months ago, i believe that Alski calculated the point at which defense rating is better then agility for avoidance based on DR is once you have greater than 2100 agility if all your dodge comes from agility

[Barney]

you lost me at defenCe ???