1. #1

    Question: How much raid DPS is needed for Sarth 2D and 3D respectivly? (normal)

    Allright. We attempted Sartharion +2D last night (tenebron+vesperon). You can see our wws here: http://wowwebstats.com/rcrpmaoncys4k (yeah, that's alot of wipes!)

    Short summary. We died because of 2-3 reasons:

    1. People doing really stupid stuff

    2. Tenebron every now and then turns around, and the tank has difficulties getting him into position again, and the his breath kills the raid.

    3. The second wave of whelps spawn before Tenebron is dead, owning our whelp/fire elemental tank.


    Short summary from what we found out to be most efficient:

    Not dpsing the fire elementals, only when enraged we assigned one ranged to kill them (elemental shaman). Not DPSing any whelps that spawned from portal.

    We had an unholy DK in mediocre tanking gear tank tenebron, a prot paladin tanking all adds (decent gear) and a tank specced druid for sartharion (decent gear)

    When stuff worked fine, we killed tenebron right before vesperon landed (heroism required from this) and when we did not have heroism we most often could not kill tenebron before his 2nd wave of whelps spawned and owned our adds tank because of too much armor reduction.

    We had 2 healers, 1 disc priest and 1 resto druid. (im disc priest). Tbh druid tank didn't take alot of damage at all. However when people actually didn't mess up it got really intense healing the adds tank after a while.

    Our plan was to kill tenebron, then AE whelps (hopefully before vesperon lands). It wasn't possible though, I got the feeling heroism was required in order to do this, but ppl messed up when we had heroism so those tries weren't as good as they could have been. We tanked the dragons according to the strats4u sarth3d guide/video.

    My questions:

    2. Why does he do this?
    3. Are there anyone with "hard numbers" on raid dps that is required to beat sarth 2D and sarth 3D? Do anyone have a WWS from a succesful 2D and 3D kill? I have been looking but haven't found any.
    3.1. Will whepls stop spawning from the portal when tenebron dies, or will the 2nd wave come anyway? If he can't use ability "hatch eggs" he shouldn't be able to ... umm... hatch them?

  2. #2

    Re: Question: How much raid DPS is needed for Sarth 2D and 3D respectivly? (normal)

    i know if you do 3drakes you have to kill tenbron before the 2nd wave of whelps hatch, which is 1minute(iirc) after he lands.
    well it appears as if you have around 11-12k dps on tenebron. so 12k dps * 60seconds= 720,000damage. on normal mode he has 960k health(iirc). long story short, you need more dps on tenebron.
    so, your 6dps would have to average 2666dps to get him dead before the 2nd wave of whelps spawn.
    the problem with the whelps is they lower the tanks armor. i believe 1 hatch of whelps lowers it by 15k armor. so since your dps is slow, maybe you could find a way to kill the first wave of whelps before the 2nd spawn or have someone else tank the 2nd wave of whelps

  3. #3

    Re: Question: How much raid DPS is needed for Sarth 2D and 3D respectivly? (normal)

    I haven't tried tanking this myself, so don't know if it works or not

    But if your adds tank (Prot Paladin) is getting the armor debuff, he could maybe try to bubble it off so that he's back to full armor and then /cancelaura to stop the drakes going nuts

  4. #4

    Re: Question: How much raid DPS is needed for Sarth 2D and 3D respectivly? (normal)

    10 man sarth is considerably more difficult than the 25 man version. The reason I believe Tenenbron moves "for no reason" is whenever he casts the Whelp portal. As far as I know there is no way to avoid this besides trying not to stand in between him and where the portal is, as he runs to the same spot each time.

    As for ways to squeeze out the dps required to down Tenenbron in time, we found it best to make sure your dps are completely "synergized". That is, make sure every dps class is buffing the other in one way or another, or at the very least, benefiting from the other buffs. Our original group had a boomkin and ele shaman, and then DK and hunter. So the buffs that the boomkin and ele shaman provide were almost completely wasted, whereas stacking warlocks/mages/SP's that all would benefit from the buffs would considerably improve the raid dps.

    I dont know what to say about the second waves owning your tank, we just used an unholy DK to tank them since they have amazing aoe dmg as well can still put out pretty good numbers on single target dps even with tanking gear on. They have some extremely OP cd's they can pop for the second wave whelps. Anti-magic+IBF+bone shield.

    One other big dif in your group from ours is that we used 3 healers, drake tank, sarth tank, and add/whelps tank+group heals. However this will make your dps race extremely close as was ours, and we are pretty well geared at this point.

    Just as an FYI, the above tips and strat are based on our 10 man 3D kill, the 2D kill is virtually over once Tenenbron and the whelps are dead unless someone does something stupid.

    in response to your other question, the whelps will stop spawning once tenenbron dies. Its entirely possible to kill him with only one wave of whelps, but it is still doable even when 2 waves spawn (our first kill).

    We dont WWS our 10 mans unfortunately so I cant say exactly what we had, but we used 3 healers, and 2.5 tanks (DK= .5), for our 3D kill. I do have our first 3D 25 man kill WWS tho but with 25-man grade raid buffs, those dps numbers will be a little inflated from whats possible in a similarly geared 10 man group.
    http://wowwebstats.com/m6bc6k2zdqgyi?s=115372-170412

  5. #5

    Re: Question: How much raid DPS is needed for Sarth 2D and 3D respectivly? (norm

    Thanks for the replies.

    About the "random behavior" on tenebron turning, our DK tank said that he sometimes turned even when he didn't hatch eggs or spawn portal. But it might be true that there are no other occasions, he generally wines twice as much as he actually plays the game =)

    Our problem is that we are a 10man guild, we can't synergize the DPS classes to optimize performance but need to go with what we have. I'm a bit amazed you've pulled 3D off with 3 healers. But is uppose all your DPSers had more or less full 25man epics and a more synergized 10man group, and since you got 2 whelp waves your DPS must have been somewhere around what ours is now, give or take (most likely give )

    Anyway, I feel it is doable with the group we have, just as long as we can kill tenebron before 2nd whelp wave. We can't bring a 3rd healer becaise it nerfs our DPS too much, and healing until 2nd wave of whelps/vesperon lands (while tenebron is still up) isnt that big of an issue.

    Guess I will analyze individual player performance to make sure everyone are doing as good dps as they possibly could for the circumstances on sarth (another reason I'd like a WWS to compare with), I feel we are really close, even though we die just when vesperon lands/2nd whelp wave.

    I must ask myself, how the fook did people manage to do 3drakes in november! Makes you realize that there is still skill involved in this game. Thank God (read Blizzard)!

    Again, thanks for the replies, and still if anyone has a WWS on a 10man 2D or3D kill I will be forever grateful!

    Cheers
    Damned

  6. #6

    Re: Question: How much raid DPS is needed for Sarth 2D and 3D respectivly? (normal)

    WWS from our 3 drakes up kill.

    http://wowwebstats.com/hh2mehulyrwca?m

  7. #7

    Re: Question: How much raid DPS is needed for Sarth 2D and 3D respectivly? (normal)

    Quote Originally Posted by Damnedkrt
    Not dpsing the fire elementals, only when enraged we assigned one ranged to kill them (elemental shaman). Not DPSing any whelps that spawned from portal.
    This is a bad choice, because when they're enraged they have like 3x the health that they do normally. You should assign a hunter or rogue to kill them, since they can tranq/anesthetic the enrage.


    And yes, your goal to get Tenebron down before the second whelps is a good one.


    3. Are there anyone with "hard numbers" on raid dps that is required to beat sarth 2D and sarth 3D? Do anyone have a WWS from a succesful 2D and 3D kill? I have been looking but haven't found any.
    Our WWS index is: http://wowwebstats.com/grwplccetswua

    It has multiple three-drake kills and probably some two-drake.

    3.1. Will whepls stop spawning from the portal when tenebron dies, or will the 2nd wave come anyway? If he can't use ability "hatch eggs" he shouldn't be able to ... umm... hatch them?
    Either way, to get Sarth 3D down, you'll need to have Tenebron down before the second whelps spawn, so that's a good goal.



    Here's your damage done to Tenebron all night:

    http://wowwebstats.com/rcrpmaoncys4k...f4001e14#break

    But here's the damage done to Tenebron while your spriest was there:

    http://wowwebstats.com/rcrpmaoncys4k...f4001e14#break

    Your mage should be able to out-dps your spriest on Tenebron. One minor thing I see is that he's not using Fire Blast much (3 times in the last 6-7 attempts) -- he should use that whenever he's moving from a lava wave.

    Consider subbing a hunter for one of your shaman (probably the enhancement, since this is a caster-based group so you should focus oncasters and caster buffs) so he can tranq the enraged blazes.

    Alternatively, move the enhancement shaman to handle the blazes: by having your elemental do it, you're having him attack mobs that aren't caster-debuffed, whereas the enh is gaining little as a melee attacking the drake.

    You're missing +10-13% caster damage (moonkin/unholy DK/warlock.) If you're having DPS issues, that's a place to start if you don't bring a hunter/rogue: bring in a moonkin for the caster buffs/debuffs, or a good warlock (for CoE.)


  8. #8
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    Re: Question: How much raid DPS is needed for Sarth 2D and 3D respectivly? (normal)

    Quote Originally Posted by Damnedkrt
    1. Tenebron every now and then turns around, and the tank has difficulties getting him into position again, and the his breath kills the raid.

    2. Not dpsing the fire elementals, only when enraged we assigned one ranged to kill them (elemental shaman). Not DPSing any whelps that spawned from portal.

    3. We had an unholy DK in mediocre tanking gear tank tenebron, a prot paladin tanking all adds (decent gear) and a tank specced druid for sartharion (decent gear)

    4. Are there anyone with "hard numbers" on raid dps that is required to beat sarth 2D and sarth 3D? Do anyone have a WWS from a succesful 2D and 3D kill? I have been looking but haven't found any.
    5. Will whepls stop spawning from the portal when tenebron dies, or will the 2nd wave come anyway? If he can't use ability "hatch eggs" he shouldn't be able to ... umm... hatch them?
    1. This is usually done when Tenebron casts a Void Zone on a point that is out of his range.
    2. Assign a rogue or hunter to deal with them using Anesthetic Poison or Tranquilizing Shot. This will dispel the enrage effect.
    3. As far as i know a warrior tank can get more overall magic resistance than any other tank atm (flame breath).
    4. ~3k DPS from every DD will make things a lot easier. Drake adds will go down very nicely.
    5. Yes. You assumed correctly that he can't cast the hatch spell anymore, thus having no additional whelps. His portal should despawn as soon as he dies.

    Hope i could help.
    Armory - WoW-Heroes - Kirakira kagayaku mirai no hikari!

  9. #9

    Re: Question: How much raid DPS is needed for Sarth 2D and 3D respectivly? (norm

    I see that a few mentions hunters and rogues to dispel the frenzy. Our problem is that we have neither in the guild So I suppose we instead should try to not enrage any elementals by not making last second run aways form the lava walls so whatever elemental thats not tanked doesnt get hit by fire wall by following a slow fooker running away form the wall. Our enhacement shaman is no longer in the guild, his replacer is currently a retribution paladin

    You say kyth that the mage should be above the spriest on tenebron. Do you mean slightly above as in use fire blast when moving, or several % above the spriest in the damage as in mage is doing something else completely wrong?

    Thanks alot for the WWSs, I will have a look whenever I can free some more time

  10. #10

    Re: Question: How much raid DPS is needed for Sarth 2D and 3D respectivly? (norm

    Quote Originally Posted by Damnedkrt
    I see that a few mentions hunters and rogues to dispel the frenzy. Our problem is that we have neither in the guild So I suppose we instead should try to not enrage any elementals by not making last second run aways form the lava walls so whatever elemental thats not tanked doesnt get hit by fire wall by following a slow fooker running away form the wall. Our enhacement shaman is no longer in the guild, his replacer is currently a retribution paladin
    Well even the lava meteors will enrage them. So in that case, have the enh shaman (or ret paladin) on them. Having a caster attacking them is just inefficient.

    You say kyth that the mage should be above the spriest on tenebron. Do you mean slightly above as in use fire blast when moving, or several % above the spriest in the damage as in mage is doing something else completely wrong?
    As in both.

    Mages have a large amount of cooldowns they can stack along with bloodlust and a spriest shouldn't be ahead of your mage. Maybe if he outgears him.

    But make sure your mage is blowing every cooldown during lust, using mirror image if he needs to for threat reasons.

    And everyone in your raid should move as little as possible -- don't tell people to spread out or clump up, that all reduces your DPS.

    All they should do is move from void zones and lava waves.

  11. #11

    Re: Question: How much raid DPS is needed for Sarth 2D and 3D respectivly? (normal)

    We downed 3-drake Sarth for the first time last night after only 2 total hours of attempts, think it was like 17 wipes in all. Thanks to Kyth for her awesome video and help. Everything she says is pretty much spot on, especially the part about the fight being pretty much won once you kill Shadron (drake 2).

    If you want a dps reference, we kill Patchwerk usually in just under 3 minutes.

  12. #12

    Re: Question: How much raid DPS is needed for Sarth 2D and 3D respectivly? (norm

    Yeah thanks kyth for your advice. We got our 2D kill tonight and according to wowjutsu it's a server 5th for us. Anyone know where else to look to confirm stuff like that?

    We will be moving on to 3D next reset, I do feel we lack the dps and us being 10man guild only really makes a difference since we don't have the better gear nor the option to optimize group setup.

    Anyway, wws for anyone interested: http://www.wowmeteronline.com//combat/log/379534

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