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  1. #21

    Re: DoTs and Arena

    Quote Originally Posted by Lionne
    I never liked this argument since I don't remember Blizzard ever stating they were going for rock/paper/scissor-balance.
    You honestly think that Blizzard designed the game so that some classes do not have any weaknesses or strengths?
    I shall die here. Every inch of me shall perish. Every inch, but one. An inch. It is small and it is fragile and it is the only thing in the world worth having. We must never lose it or give it away. We must never let them take it from us.

  2. #22

    Re: DoTs and Arena

    Weaknesses and strengths does not equal rock/paper/scissor.
    Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    But we're worried that logic might not lead to the best game.

  3. #23

    Re: DoTs and Arena

    Quote Originally Posted by Nezoia
    So 50% damage reduction rather than 100% swing timer? That's what I'm talking about, a ideal balancing of Divine Shield. But I haven't seen those patch notes.
    I'll teach you something about general purpose DoT effects.

    The first tick happends 3 second after your cast. So a warlock spend 1.5 second+GCD to cast UA, Paladin uses 1 GCD to dispel it, warlock uses 1.5 second + GCD + 3 seconds.

    Difference? 6 seconds. The paladin get 6 second free dps time. In reality he gets 10 (14) seconds free dps time due to Bubble.
    It have nothing to do with a specific composition, which you could see if you weren't so ignorant and self-class focused.

    I made a composition based on the two most DoT effect depending classes, since it made sense for the example.

    Now while the dispel effect on UA is harsh on Holy Paladins, the cost of cleanse is so hillarious low it's not worth talking about, making DoTs nothing but a GCD for a holy paladin if there's no warlock in the opposing team.
    It's in the 3.0.8 notes:

    Divine Shield: The 100% attack speed penalty has been replaced by a 50% reduction to all damage caused.

    Your point isn't clear, you think that a Paladin will actually attempt to dispel UA on themselves? That is incorrect. Also, you're point on Paladins dispelling themselves gains less weight when you realise that in the GCD it's taken to remove the debuff they cannot perform any special attacks, even in a perfect world where Cleanse works every time which it doesn't btw.

    If a Ret Paladin decides to bubble to remove the DoTs then attack they will be doing 50% less damage. I've covered that before. So they may be getting 12 seconds of free DPS, but it's half of what they would be doing normally.

    Oh, and if you're going to post things like this:

    No, it's called constructive feedback on the different effects certain spells have on certain classes.

    People should focus on such, rather than doing 20 threads about new abilities that'll never be implemented anyway.
    To people in your thread, don't go on to attack me calling me 'ignorant and class focused' just because I disagree with you. It makes you look like a hypocrite.

  4. #24

    Re: DoTs and Arena

    Quote Originally Posted by Perastra
    Also, you're point on Paladins dispelling themselves gains less weight when you realise that in the GCD it's taken to remove the debuff they cannot perform any special attacks, even in a perfect world where Cleanse works every time which it doesn't btw.
    However, the ways ret palies work you're never able to chain abilities. There's always open spots where you're waiting for something to come off cooldown. The opening burst of a pally needs 2-3 GCD's before something is usable again, plenty of time to dispel (well, unless that 3 seconds of burst drops them sub-35%, which happens far too often right now).

    The damage nerf that's coming to bubble helps, a lot, but the huge amount of wasted time that comes with reapplying the DoT's really cripples the classes that use no matter how you look at it. I highly doubt Blizz is willing to allow DoT's to stay on the class but just have them immune to the damage; that'll be a pretty major change for both PvP and PvE (how many times can a pally use bubble/cancel while tanking to get rid of a nasty debuff?).

  5. #25

    Re: DoTs and Arena

    Quote Originally Posted by Isfreak
    I highly doubt Blizz is willing to allow DoT's to stay on the class but just have them immune to the damage; that'll be a pretty major change for both PvP and PvE (how many times can a pally use bubble/cancel while tanking to get rid of a nasty debuff?).
    Aye, that is true. It would be a major change and I doubt that it will happen. A weaker version of the suggestion could be to have the immunity attempt to dispel the debuff, and if that fails through dispel resistance on the effect it is merely suppressed until the immunity wears off. That wouldn't break pve. It would be quite RNGish in pvp though, and perhaps not that much of a buff for the dotters.

    I guess what the dotters need are strong on-demand defensive abilities to use when the opponent pops his immunity to buy enough time to start over afterwards. You can argue that shadowpriests have that already.

    Eventually it will of course be less of a deal than it is now. If fights lasted for 10 minutes noone would complain about having to reapply 4 dots because of a bubble, even if it happens twice during that time. Right now it's an eternity before you do any damage though, and you'll simply be dead by then.

  6. #26

    Re: DoTs and Arena

    I have to agree with Nezoia here, in the pvp setting DoTs are underpowered in that they can be easily removed via dispel mechanics or immunity spells/abilities and they deal their damage slowly (particularly in comparison to how rogues and ret palidans deal their damage). As such spriests find it hard to pressure opponents into defensive actions which generally results in the spriest having to act defensive and having very little spells/abilities to do so.

    Another issue that irks me is that melee are balanced to do physical damage against targets with a decent amount of armor... that means in pvp when fighting clothies they get a dps increase from what they were balanced for. My spells hit everyone for the same strength, so I get no bonus damage against melee. If anything, due to copious amount of anti caster abilities that most melee classes have I do far less dps. In addition, if i'm being targeted my spells suffer spell pushback (sure its not the same as it used to be but it still impacts on my offensive ability), if I beat on a melee I don't see his swing timer being delayed. And lastly melee tend to have 5 to 10% more health with equivalent gear.

    It's also indicated that melee have to close range and that range is a big advantage... i'd almost believe that except for the fact that nearly all melee classes have a myriad of ways to close range and keep it closed. Crippling poison, stuns, shadowstep, sprint, deadly throw, vanish & stealth, hamstring, death grip, chains of ice, blind... in the case or rogues in particular, it's impossible to keep range providing the rogue uses their abilities properly. This tells me that range is dramatically overvalued.

    So in summary, melee classes have superior dps, superior health, anti caster abilities (including immunities)... i dont understand the balance there.

    Imo they need to ramp up spell damage to be superior to make up for the lack of survivability or they need to give casters a lot more tools to surivive the superior dps and anti caster abilties of melee. They also need more ways to create range, because as it stands once melee cripple or hamstring or whatever snare they have, thats it they will never lose range again. It's not fun to trinket 1 stun to go straight into another and see yourself die or be snared remove it and get to range to have the melee charge, shadowstep or generally be in ur face easily 1 second later.

    I lot of people use the paper/sissors/rock analogy but I don't like it... imo everyone should have some chance of beating any class... it shouldn't be rogues have such an advantage over priests they can't win who have such an advantage over warriors they can't win who have such... etc etc etc... advantages should mean u have the upper hand but its no guarantee of winning.

    but back onto the orginal topic... dots is part of the problem... by the time i cast 3 dots a melee can have me at half health or less... i then have to react defensively, the dots can be removed and all of sudden i'm pretty much dead in the water. So dont cast the dots I guess and I do such poor dps the a melee will eat me for lunch anyways... I have no idea what the solution is with respect to dots, all I know is that they need to buff caster damage or suriviability a hell of a lot b4 it would be worth tryign to pvp.

  7. #27
    antifreeze
    Guest

    Re: DoTs and Arena

    Damn i m a noob sry but... what is the new dispell system ?))) saw it somewhere but didnt mind and now wanna know lazy to search)

  8. #28

    Re: DoTs and Arena

    Quote Originally Posted by Lionne
    Weaknesses and strengths does not equal rock/paper/scissor.
    met·a·phor (mět'ə-fôr', -fər)

    1. A figure of speech in which a word or phrase that ordinarily designates one thing is used to designate another, thus making an implicit comparison, as in "a sea of troubles" or "All the world's a stage" (Shakespeare).
    2. One thing conceived as representing another; a symbol: "Hollywood has always been an irresistible, prefabricated metaphor for the crass, the materialistic, the shallow, and the craven" (Neal Gabler).
    I shall die here. Every inch of me shall perish. Every inch, but one. An inch. It is small and it is fragile and it is the only thing in the world worth having. We must never lose it or give it away. We must never let them take it from us.

  9. #29

    Re: DoTs and Arena

    dispell resists.

    Worhsaka; Mages are the only real viable anti melee class as a caster. since they also have the snares, CC, survivability (ice block) and dmg to win.

    even boomkin have the tools to keep melee off with all their snares that they have, with shape shifting removing snares, an entangling roots, and a cyclone + bash in bear.

    if priests had a version of ice block, things would change, and if they had an on demand snare, Priest representation would skyrocket.

    as of now, its divine hymn (on 6 min CD) and fear...and a poor attempt at spell design with dispersion (if your shadow).

    we have no blinks, and no knock backs, just a fear that can be dispelled, trinketed, and will of the forsaken, zerker raged, cloaked, bestial wrathed, dk stuff (don't know what their called),...this same issue falls with locks.

    stun can be.....trinketed.......

    cyclone can be......trinketed........

    sheep can be trinketed, and dispelled.......

    our main cc has so many counters, a priset "can" mind control, but the cast time and how it cc's yourself as well, is way too situational to use, plus its pretty much broken with 1 attack.

  10. #30

    Re: DoTs and Arena

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosgaurdian
    dispell resists.

    Worhsaka; Mages are the only real viable anti melee class as a caster. since they also have the snares, CC, survivability (ice block) and dmg to win.

    even boomkin have the tools to keep melee off with all their snares that they have, with shape shifting removing snares, an entangling roots, and a cyclone + bash in bear.

    if priests had a version of ice block, things would change, and if they had an on demand snare, Priest representation would skyrocket.

    as of now, its divine hymn (on 6 min CD) and fear...and a poor attempt at spell design with dispersion (if your shadow).

    we have no blinks, and no knock backs, just a fear that can be dispelled, trinketed, and will of the forsaken, zerker raged, cloaked, bestial wrathed, dk stuff (don't know what their called),...this same issue falls with locks.

    stun can be.....trinketed.......

    cyclone can be......trinketed........

    sheep can be trinketed, and dispelled.......

    our main cc has so many counters, a priset "can" mind control, but the cast time and how it cc's yourself as well, is way too situational to use, plus its pretty much broken with 1 attack.
    Stun can be trinketed, blinked out of.

    Sheep can be trinketed, dispelled, bestial wrathed, breaks on any damage and heals the player to full in about three seconds.

    Fear can be trinketed, dispelled, bestial wrathed, WotF'd. You cannot Cloak of Shadow out of it, and if a DK breaks it with Lichborne (11 point frost talent) then you can shackle them.


    If they took Divine Hymn off of the same DR as fear and made Hymns castable in shadowform then it would work.

    I agree with Mind Control being a bad CC, if they made a glyph which lowered the cast time by 1.5 seconds but lowered ther duration by 30 seconds then it would be a very competative Crowd Control, as it would still last ten seconds in PVP while
    I shall die here. Every inch of me shall perish. Every inch, but one. An inch. It is small and it is fragile and it is the only thing in the world worth having. We must never lose it or give it away. We must never let them take it from us.

  11. #31

    Re: DoTs and Arena

    my point with pointing out the number of cc breaks for fear and comparing them with stun and cyclones and sheeps, is that their methods of breaking them are frustratingly less.

    who else can blink but mages?

    and for sheep, you don't sheep some1 at 10% do you? the sheeps come at you in rotations to keep you out of the match when you start the match and at roughly full health. So as far as you pointing out they get full health, they should all ready be.

  12. #32
    The Insane Bakis's Avatar
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    Re: DoTs and Arena

    another thing that bugs me about arena is that since warlocks are the only class dealing damage over time, also make us gimped in our choice of partner(s).

    in a 2v2 where you play lock you don't have much choises of partner class/spec and thats VERY unfair.
    as usual BLZ only think 1 step ahead so now they focus on dispellissues and some needed circle of lame fixing.
    by the time that is done they still haven't understood that a class that deal damage over time need MORE evasion, survivability skills than just leveling us out to the same ammount of others.
    untill this is fixed, locks will sadly be crap in arena unless they pick the partner from a very very limited ammount of choices, which basicly make arena boring from a 2v2 perspective and even 3v3.

    S5 is long gone for warlocks, been since WOTLK beta at least from a fun/usefull point of view.

    edit: rofl, read only half of the posts and totally missed the Priest dir hihih, anyways same goes for SP's as with locks. We feel with you buddies.
    Russia isn't afraid of US dude. That's why they are sending their bombers like 60km out of your shores. Infact they give 0 fucks. They know you wont dare to touch them.

  13. #33

    Re: DoTs and Arena

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosgaurdian
    my point with pointing out the number of cc breaks for fear and comparing them with stun and cyclones and sheeps, is that their methods of breaking them are frustratingly less.

    who else can blink but mages?

    and for sheep, you don't sheep some1 at 10% do you? the sheeps come at you in rotations to keep you out of the match when you start the match and at roughly full health. So as far as you pointing out they get full health, they should all ready be.
    Well, cyclone is a banish, you are not supposed to be able to break out of it easily.

    And Fear may be easier to break than Sheep, but you can use it no matter the players health. Sheep is basically useless if the player is under a certain health level.
    I shall die here. Every inch of me shall perish. Every inch, but one. An inch. It is small and it is fragile and it is the only thing in the world worth having. We must never lose it or give it away. We must never let them take it from us.

  14. #34

    Re: DoTs and Arena

    if it syour cc target, he should be out of the game until your kill target is dead. not at all useless. and sheep you can use it when you feel like it. Fear (for priests) has a limitation.

  15. #35
    I am Murloc!
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    Re: DoTs and Arena

    Fear is the most unreliable crow-control / defense effect in the game.

  16. #36

    Re: DoTs and Arena

    The reason it is so unreliable is because it does not have a down side.
    I shall die here. Every inch of me shall perish. Every inch, but one. An inch. It is small and it is fragile and it is the only thing in the world worth having. We must never lose it or give it away. We must never let them take it from us.

  17. #37
    The Patient Roar's Avatar
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    Re: DoTs and Arena

    Quote Originally Posted by Abandon
    They could make Cloak of Shadows 50% spell resist for 3 second and it would still be amazing. One of the main reasons rogues whined that they needed this 41 point talent as a trainer skill was that they needed something to survive AoE. With the new change to Feint reducing all AoE damage by 50%, it seems that that argument will not hold up any more.

    "Feint: Rank 8 now reduces the damage taken from area of effect attacks by 50% for 6 seconds in addition to its existing effects."
    No, finito - done deal bye. (Really, I don't do pve.. so no thats not the main reason rogues needed clos.. )
    Played a rogue BEFORE TBC? Ever? No?
    .. Please, I can understand you qq about it etc. But hello, my point is: It completly locks our main ability down when we're dotted or FF by druids.
    It makes our best defense and for the shake of it vanish (that works 50/50 of the time) not usable at all.
    Ok, you can change Clos to something like: Remove all harmfull effects bla bla as now, and 1 sec immunity instead. Making us able to use vanish if needed.
    Since FF from druids killed a rogue pretbc, since it maked it impossible to use vanish and dots locked is down pretty well.. since it was almost impossible with all dots up to time a vanish between the ticks to do a "stealth starter".

    Clos is one of our defensive abilities, now can I heal myself at all? do I got plate? Can I use "reduce damage abilities"? No I can just run away and pray, I can understand it is OP now due to all the NUKE power that we got and 3 other classes as well.

    And btw, did you forget IB since your only talking about bubble and clos.. err, ok IB removes it all. But makes them unable to do anything, fair. Then make Clos work like IB. Just with a reduced immunity. etc 5 seconds or whatever. -

    My idea to clos could be:
    Clos:Makes you immune to all attacks and spells. But you cannot attack during the time.
    Last for 5 seconds.. same as clos. But with this change, we unnable to attack during that period instead.

    This change will make it more fair towards spell casters.
    Now if I missunderstood what your talking, is removing the damn dots you got and wasting your gcds, then hello I can understand CLOS. with a 1 min cd, but bubble or IB ain't on a 1 min cd.

    bla bla, qq and hf further. Just saying clos was needed, now make it work in some other form/way as I suggested and maybe you will be happy.
    Clos wont be removed, just because its nuke & pray games currently going on and sp&locks are the worst class/speccs possible at the moment.
    Once you go troll, you'll never reroll.
    To bad I'm an undead! ~ Tøffelladden

  18. #38

    Re: DoTs and Arena

    Quote Originally Posted by Abandon
    met·a·phor (mět'ə-fôr', -fər)

    1. A figure of speech in which a word or phrase that ordinarily designates one thing is used to designate another, thus making an implicit comparison, as in "a sea of troubles" or "All the world's a stage" (Shakespeare).
    2. One thing conceived as representing another; a symbol: "Hollywood has always been an irresistible, prefabricated metaphor for the crass, the materialistic, the shallow, and the craven" (Neal Gabler).
    There was no metaphor in what you wrote.
    Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    But we're worried that logic might not lead to the best game.

  19. #39

    Re: DoTs and Arena

    You cannot see the meraphor of comparing the balance of characters in a game to the balance in the game rock, paper, scissors?

    Really?
    I shall die here. Every inch of me shall perish. Every inch, but one. An inch. It is small and it is fragile and it is the only thing in the world worth having. We must never lose it or give it away. We must never let them take it from us.

  20. #40

    Re: DoTs and Arena

    If Blizzard were actually attempting to balance the game on a similar system, I could. However they have never stated such. (To my knowledge)
    Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    But we're worried that logic might not lead to the best game.

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