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  1. #1
    I am Murloc!
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    DoTs and Arena

    I thought about DoTs and arena this morning. The new dispel mechanics are great, but two problems remain.

    Our most leathal enemies, the Retribution Paladin, and the Rogue, can still remove our DoTs in the Blink of an Eye, without any punishment, and without having to care about dispel resistance.

    Here I'm specifically talking about Divine Shield (also known as bubble) and Cloak of Shadows (also known as CloS or Cloak of LOL).

    How would a penality go for using these spells, if there say, were applied Unstable Affliction to the target, thus causing the same effects by using these abilities (Silience and Damage) to a rogue or paladin using their instant dispel of all DoTs.

    It would force double-dps team to be very carefull against warlock+priest combo's.

    A direct implementation would be a bit harsh against paladins because of the silence effect, but if that didden't apply to dispelling UA with the bubble, but just the damage effect, I could see it working.

    What's your thoughts ?

  2. #2

    Re: DoTs and Arena

    I think you're not supposed to beat scissors as paper.

  3. #3
    I am Murloc!
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    Re: DoTs and Arena

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulkur
    I think you're not supposed to beat scissors as paper.
    WIN!

  4. #4

    Re: DoTs and Arena

    Seeing as any 'punishment' would be ignored due to the bubble/cloak anyway - I think it is a mistargetted attack.

    I have never ever beaten a decent rogue as shadow. I doubt that has changed. Some kind of 'spell: makes all colldowns used' is the only thing I ever see stopping a rogue.

    Perhaps there would be some way of replacing them with a 'new' unresistable non damaging debuff that decreased output of damage for x seconds, or slows movement, or incapacitates for 3 seconds or something? Not sure.

  5. #5
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    Re: DoTs and Arena

    It's not a question of killing a rogue solo, it's a question of doing it in a team. A priest/warlock combo would still have trouble with a single rogue or paladin due to the named abilities.

    I think it's terrible design that two classes can make themself immune to the main attacks of two other classes, and remove previous effects of such with a instant ability.

  6. #6

    Re: DoTs and Arena

    Well since DS makes you totaly immune to all damage except Chaos Bolt, UA should not harm the paladin. Nevertheless, I could agree with the rogue.

    I just dont think its the way to balance for Warlocks vs. those 2 classes.

  7. #7
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    Re: DoTs and Arena

    Chaos Bolt never worked against Divine Shield on live. It was only on beta for a short while.

    And never the less, we need to find a solution towards the paladin bubble. Because it's our greatest problem with the Paladin class. The burst damage could eventually be mitigated away with resilience, but with abilities that make DoTs have little to no effect in short-time matches (as all matches are now), it's unacceptable overpowered.

    It's not a defensive ability in the term of it avoid you from taking damage when it also dispels all the offensive effects on you allready. That's my problem with it.

    Currently there's no need for it in PvE, so a change to reduce the damage taken from DoTs rather than a complete removal would be in position.

    And somewhat the same for rogues... plus a nerf of the 90% resistance after using CloS.

  8. #8

    Re: DoTs and Arena

    Ummm, Mass Dispel?
    Why did I always think this was the ultimate anti-palla spell?

    CloS should have some way to removing it or give SOME kind of penalty to the rogue. It's very OP right now against priest and some other casters.

    It's the same thing with the anti magic bubble DK's got as far as I know, I don't think it can be dispelled...

  9. #9
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    Re: DoTs and Arena

    Removal of the bubble means less than the bubble removing my DoTs. Alot less.

  10. #10

    Re: DoTs and Arena

    Quote Originally Posted by Nezoia
    Removal of the bubble means less than the bubble removing my DoTs. Alot less.
    whine whine whine

    i gues you never played double DPS especially mele?

    one paladin on the opposit team is allready a shit loads to deal with once you get him down hes gonna bubble and we switch to the partner but if we get him down paladins going to bubble him to and we are yet forced to go after the paladin. and honestly at this point we have lost shit loads of HP and such.
    it even is worse if the paladins friend is a caster which means he can totally ignore that hes got bubble hes immune to mele but he can still cast spells

  11. #11

    Re: DoTs and Arena

    90% resist on cloak of shadows is way too much.

    Pally i'm not too worried about because i can mass dispell them, but damnit if i don't waste 4 gcd's to put up dots and VE and then have him egrase it all with 1 gcd, then i have to use another gcd to remove his bubble + 4 more gcd's to get dots back up.

    thats a total of 9 gcd's vs his 1, over powered? does bliz think so?

    rogues, they have no *imunity* but they might as well have since it has 90% resist and completely removes any magic de-buffs.

    besides, rogues don't really need to use their cloak of skill, stun stun eviscerate, profit....i took 9.7k eviscerate crit with 500 resilience...little low, but damn, it was over 9,000......

    btw, same *gcd's to dmg* applies to rogue that does with pally minus the mass dispell.

    only rogues are worse because they can vanish and prep and do that rotation all over again, if th rogue is good, he is at 95% while your dead.

  12. #12
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    Re: DoTs and Arena

    Quote Originally Posted by shokchief
    whine whine whine
    No, it's called constructive feedback on the different effects certain spells have on certain classes.

    People should focus on such, rather than doing 20 threads about new abilities that'll never be implemented anyway.

  13. #13

    Re: DoTs and Arena

    Once again, people are willing to swing the nerfbat without considering other specs.

    What about Holy Paladins? Am I just to sit there and let the Warlocks DoTs tick away since I am unable to dispel them on the chance the RNG picks Unstable Affliction? Bubble is getting a 50% damage penalty, Ret Paladins are going to be a lot less willing to use it whilst doing damage after that is implemented.

    Sorry, but I could not disagree more with your idea. Priests can already dispel Divine Shield and in the 1.5 seconds it takes for the Warlock to recast UA the Paladin has just wasted his bubble. A Warlock/Spriest combo will not work at the moment since Burst is ruling PvP. It's just something you'll have to accept for the time being. There is no need to break the defining Paladin skill to make your comp more viable.

  14. #14

    Re: DoTs and Arena

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulkur
    I think you're not supposed to beat scissors as paper.
    Funniest thing i have heard in a long time.



    Not true. I think we've already established that I'm a prick. If I'm a prick with a prick I can't be a bitch, now, can I? But as they say, the hungry think about bread, so if you're seeing bitches everywere.... man... get laid... It'll help ya.

  15. #15

    Re: DoTs and Arena

    Yeah, it's very harsh that some classes can completely remove all debuffs like that. They are especially annoying against Devouring Plague with its cooldown.

    Add mages to the list - with Iceblock and Mage Armor dotting them down is damn near impossible now. (VT ticks what, twice before it wears off?) I would be much happier if those immunity-abilities just suppressed dots and other debuffs while the immunity is active but they'd still be there when the bubble/Iceblock/CoS is gone (those that last long enough). That would make mages stay a bit longer in their Iceblock to let Mage Armor remove the debuffs, and it would make mass dispelling fast better.

    Rogues would complain about not being able to use CoS+vanish of course, although in all fairness they still would. They'd turn visible after a while when the CoS wears off and the dots start ticking again, but still plenty of time to open on the priest/lock/moonkin again before that. Besides, any rogue who complains about a nerf against dotters should be shot.

  16. #16

    Re: DoTs and Arena

    They could make Cloak of Shadows 50% spell resist for 3 second and it would still be amazing. One of the main reasons rogues whined that they needed this 41 point talent as a trainer skill was that they needed something to survive AoE. With the new change to Feint reducing all AoE damage by 50%, it seems that that argument will not hold up any more.

    "Feint: Rank 8 now reduces the damage taken from area of effect attacks by 50% for 6 seconds in addition to its existing effects."
    I shall die here. Every inch of me shall perish. Every inch, but one. An inch. It is small and it is fragile and it is the only thing in the world worth having. We must never lose it or give it away. We must never let them take it from us.

  17. #17

    Re: DoTs and Arena

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulkur
    I think you're not supposed to beat scissors as paper.
    I never liked this argument since I don't remember Blizzard ever stating they were going for rock/paper/scissor-balance.
    Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    But we're worried that logic might not lead to the best game.

  18. #18

    Re: DoTs and Arena

    Quote Originally Posted by Perastra
    Once again, people are willing to swing the nerfbat without considering other specs.

    What about Holy Paladins? Am I just to sit there and let the Warlocks DoTs tick away since I am unable to dispel them on the chance the RNG picks Unstable Affliction? Bubble is getting a 50% damage penalty, Ret Paladins are going to be a lot less willing to use it whilst doing damage after that is implemented.

    Sorry, but I could not disagree more with your idea. Priests can already dispel Divine Shield and in the 1.5 seconds it takes for the Warlock to recast UA the Paladin has just wasted his bubble. A Warlock/Spriest combo will not work at the moment since Burst is ruling PvP. It's just something you'll have to accept for the time being. There is no need to break the defining Paladin skill to make your comp more viable.
    but druids and shams take all dots regardless, where is their dispell/bubble?

    priests and pallies can dispel yes, but the fear of a ua dispell silence + dmg is enough to second guess the dispell.

    atleast pallies can completely remove it and not worry for, what, 8 seconds?

  19. #19
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    Re: DoTs and Arena

    Quote Originally Posted by Perastra
    Bubble is getting a 50% damage penalty, Ret Paladins are going to be a lot less willing to use it whilst doing damage after that is implemented.
    So 50% damage reduction rather than 100% swing timer? That's what I'm talking about, a ideal balancing of Divine Shield. But I haven't seen those patch notes.

    Sorry, but I could not disagree more with your idea. Priests can already dispel Divine Shield and in the 1.5 seconds it takes for the Warlock to recast UA the Paladin has just wasted his bubble.
    I'll teach you something about general purpose DoT effects.

    The first tick happends 3 second after your cast. So a warlock spend 1.5 second+GCD to cast UA, Paladin uses 1 GCD to dispel it, warlock uses 1.5 second + GCD + 3 seconds.

    Difference? 6 seconds. The paladin get 6 second free dps time. In reality he gets 10 (14) seconds free dps time due to Bubble.

    A Warlock/Spriest combo will not work at the moment since Burst is ruling PvP. It's just something you'll have to accept for the time being. There is no need to break the defining Paladin skill to make your comp more viable.
    It have nothing to do with a specific composition, which you could see if you weren't so ignorant and self-class focused.

    I made a composition based on the two most DoT effect depending classes, since it made sense for the example.

    Now while the dispel effect on UA is harsh on Holy Paladins, the cost of cleanse is so hillarious low it's not worth talking about, making DoTs nothing but a GCD for a holy paladin if there's no warlock in the opposing team.

  20. #20
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    Re: DoTs and Arena

    Quote Originally Posted by Abandon
    They could make Cloak of Shadows 50% spell resist for 3 second and it would still be amazing. One of the main reasons rogues whined that they needed this 41 point talent as a trainer skill was that they needed something to survive AoE. With the new change to Feint reducing all AoE damage by 50%, it seems that that argument will not hold up any more.

    "Feint: Rank 8 now reduces the damage taken from area of effect attacks by 50% for 6 seconds in addition to its existing effects."
    I didden't even knew that was the reason it was implemented, but good someone is better at history than me.

    And in the current state of PvP, even rogues think they got it to easy.

    Now we just need to convince paladins they are overpowered... opposit to warlocks, paladins can't seem to grasp the concept of it. Atleast warlocks would admit it openly.

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