Support the Cause! DoT Clipping must be removed!

[gherkin]

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...18866389&sid=1

Bad warlocks can't make affliction work for them. Good warlocks think its hard. Expert warlocks like it exactly the way it is.

This change brings bad and good warlocks up to a bare minimum dps level while keeping the difficulty of max dps high for the experts.

Support the change!

[zuxia]

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...18866389&sid=1

Bad warlocks can't make affliction work for them. Good warlocks think its hard. Expert warlocks like it exactly the way it is.

This change brings bad and good warlocks up to a bare minimum dps level while keeping the difficulty of max dps high for the experts.

Support the change!

How about locks who dislike afflic...why not work on something more useful like balancing all trees so they do dps evenly. That is alot harder than trying to pigeon hole every raiding lock in afflic huh. Clipping dots is only important to afflic for the most part..and does not increase every locks dps...so once again this idea is a failure.

[NotValidAnymore]

How about locks who dislike afflic...why not work on something more useful like balancing all trees so they do dps evenly. That is alot harder than trying to pigeon hole every raiding lock in afflic huh. Clipping dots is only important to afflic for the most part..and does not increase every locks dps...so once again this idea is a failure.

Then again, there should be enough people to work on both at the same time, don't you think?

[rodobson]

You propose a very solid idea Gherkin. This would be a very nice way to buff dot DPS, or rather maximize the potential that already exists.

Something occurred to me when I was reading your post though. What if dot damage was revamped the way mana regen was. Instead of a tick, a steady spread over the course of the dot that was continuous. Would this be impractical?
What if ticks were every second instead of every 3?

Dots are the square peg in the round hole of DPS currently.

Also, are you opposed to the dot times being made more concurrent? I personally think a standard dot time of 15 seconds would be extremely nice. The point is to take the time juggling out, not necessarily the complexity of the rotation.
Honestly who thought 18 and 24 were good multiples of 3 when designing spells, considering the majority of the game is now based around 15, 30? The common denominator of 5 is everywhere in WoW now, it strikes me as odd that some durations were ever used.

I play destro btw and it no way detracts from my ability to understand, appreciate, and support affliction.

[zuxia]

You propose a very solid idea Gherkin. This would be a very nice way to buff dot DPS, or rather maximize the potential that already exists.

Something occurred to me when I was reading your post though. What if dot damage was revamped the way mana regen was. Instead of a tick, a steady spread over the course of the dot that was continuous. Would this be impractical?
What if ticks were every second instead of every 3?

Dots are the square peg in the round hole of DPS currently.

Also, are you opposed to the dot times being made more concurrent? I personally think a standard dot time of 15 seconds would be extremely nice. The point is to take the time juggling out, not necessarily the complexity of the rotation.
Honestly who thought 18 and 24 were good multiples of 3 when designing spells, considering the majority of the game is now based around 15, 30? The common denominator of 5 is everywhere in WoW now, it strikes me as odd that some durations were ever used.

I play destro btw and it no way detracts from my ability to understand, appreciate, and support affliction.

I support afflic..however this just pigeon holes locks again

[zuxia]

Then again, there should be enough people to work on both at the same time, don't you think?

Should be..but it is not happening why...because most are focused on afflic..why cause it does most dps and is constantly hailed by the elitests...so your logic is a failure.

[mattimaeus]

I dunno it seems to me that dot clipping is a mechanic that doesnt need to be changed too much, adequate player watching of their dots prevents clipping, not to mention that there are indeed many more things to work on in wow then dot/hot clipping

[Vandalheart]

Should be..but it is not happening why...because most are focused on afflic..why cause it does most dps and is constantly hailed by the elitests...so your logic is a failure.

Actually, im one of the most elitist douchebags you're ever likely to find, but I dont practice what I preach. Currently using 41/30 because 25 mans are like playing in superglue and while I loved being affli in 10 mans in 25 mans I simply cant pull it off. FG spec would still benefit from this change however, and if I ever upgrade this laptop or we get tbc levels of latency in raids, i'll be back in the affli tree. GogoGherkin

[rodobson]

Zuxia could you elaborate on your pidgeon hole comment? That we are a dot clas? That we are a fire mage?

BLizz has commented on many aspects of the warlock class that they are currently working on. No one is patient anymore however and it seems change just can't come fast enough.

[zuxia]

Zuxia could you elaborate on your pidgeon hole comment? That we are a dot clas? That we are a fire mage?

BLizz has commented on many aspects of the warlock class that they are currently working on. No one is patient anymore however and it seems change just can't come fast enough.

I do agree with comment about patience. I was not talking about pigeon hole in normal terms...but many who now hail afflic hated being pigeon holed into one raid spec in BC..which is currently similar..if we just consider dps...instead of making more improvements to afflic..which that is where the most benefit from dot clipping happens..yes I do understand dest and hybrid..I play hybrid but have played dest...the dot clip will do nothing but increase dps for afflic..so you are raising dps on a spec that already does very nice numbers. So why not spend more time making the other 2 trees dps more close to afflic..there are ways to do this with harder rotations..which dest can be tough getting proper dps considering the boss fights currently out, but that is a trade off with easier rotation im guessing.

[bored059]

Im currently utilizing the affliction spec, and I do see that some stay away from this tree due to its complexity in comparison to destro/demo mixes. As much as this change might be needed (to decrease the severity of clipping a dot or two in your rotation) i think we need to establish exactly what population of the warlock community are we talking about here?

As far as I see it, most afflictionist seem to pull off the rotation and there are others who simply enjoy destro/demo better than affliction(even before wotlk). In BC, if you didnt like destro (for whatever reason) you simply were not the *top dps* raid lock(minus the single malediction lock). We are not even taking into account how watered down the rotation was (if its even called an rotation).

So now that the top dps raid spec just happened to be a different tree and, god forbid, its actually a difficult rotation... we have to tune things? How is it different from BC?

Bottom line, if a large portion of the lock community actually has trouble w/ the rotation (and truly enjoyed affliction) then, yes, we may need to re-examine the complexity.

[HavocLock]

I personally enjoy the challenge of spell rotations.. kinda reminds me of that old mole-bashing game. ;D

But what truly sucks - Fighting the other lock(s) to cast Haunt first to snag the only shadow embrace.... having Immolate not refresh when you cast it and losing time to recast which then throws off your dps and rotation... and getting worked most of the physical damage classes in lesser gear with lesser skill that arent hit-capped even though they have a low hit cap to begin with. Now supposedly some fixes are on the way.

Rotations I can handle.. stupid things like this are annoying.

[gherkin]

Zuxia. How does this only help affliction warlocks? Did you even read the post?

This helps Hunters (Serpent sting), Shadow Priests (dots), Healers (Hots like Renew), DESTRO WARLOCKS USING COA/CORR/IMMO W/O CONFLAG, Demo as well, Mage (Ignites), Death Knights (disease)

I fail to grasp how this pigeonholes anyone. Its an immediate buff to anyone with a periodic effect, and if you are arguing that one warlock spec should not have any dots then you are playing the wrong class.

Edit: I read that you said "will only increase the dps for affliction" - This is not an increase for anyones dps who is not already skilled at the game. Maybe if you read it to start instead "QQ more affliction, its not the only spec you know"

[gherkin]

Im currently utilizing the affliction spec, and I do see that some stay away from this tree due to its complexity in comparison to destro/demo mixes. As much as this change might be needed (to decrease the severity of clipping a dot or two in your rotation) i think we need to establish exactly what population of the warlock community are we talking about here?

As far as I see it, most afflictionist seem to pull off the rotation and there are others who simply enjoy destro/demo better than affliction(even before wotlk). In BC, if you didnt like destro (for whatever reason) you simply were not the *top dps* raid lock(minus the single malediction lock). We are not even taking into account how watered down the rotation was (if its even called an rotation).

So now that the top dps raid spec just happened to be a different tree and, god forbid, its actually a difficult rotation... we have to tune things? How is it different from BC?

Bottom line, if a large portion of the lock community actually has trouble w/ the rotation (and truly enjoyed affliction) then, yes, we may need to re-examine the complexity.

I think most of the warlock community is fine with the complexity, and thinks dps should go a bit higher as a reward.

What I am fighting here is double-dipping punishment for failing to pull off the rotation.

Currently if you clip a spell, you not only lose the tick but you also lose that tick's mana cost. For example, since you get 5 ticks out of UA, clipping one costs you 20% of its mana with no damage dealt. Then later you have to lifetap more and thus your dps goes lower.

This change simply makes it less punishing to clip your dots, such that a new warlock / shadow priest who is told "keep your dots up 100% of the time" can do so without external addons while maintaining a level of DPS that is competitive. Failing to refresh on time costs you DPS AND Mana. It should not cost you both.


Also, all dots will crit soon (3.1 or 3.2) - DPS should increase as a result.

[zuxia]

Zuxia. How does this only help affliction warlocks? Did you even read the post?

This helps Hunters (Serpent sting), Shadow Priests (dots), Healers (Hots like Renew), DESTRO WARLOCKS USING COA/CORR/IMMO W/O CONFLAG, Demo as well, Mage (Ignites), Death Knights (disease)

I fail to grasp how this pigeonholes anyone. Its an immediate buff to anyone with a periodic effect, and if you are arguing that one warlock spec should not have any dots then you are playing the wrong class.

Edit: I read that you said "will only increase the dps for affliction" - This is not an increase for anyones dps who is not already skilled at the game. Maybe if you read it to start instead "QQ more affliction, its not the only spec you know"

Not QQ..read the post...yes many classes benefit..but this is a lock forum..so I focus on that..WHAT SPEC BENEFITS FROM NOT DOT CLIPPING THE MOST..that is the point..Afflic..so while afflic..gets a serious boost to there dps..it actually does little for the other 2 specs..since most of the damage does not come from dots anyway...YOU FAIL TO SEE THAT. Plus it raises all dps..which still puts demo and dest farther down on dps on afflic..so it fixes nothing on desparity of dps between the trees does it..nope. So your points of trying to say im QQ about afflic...fail

EDIT: If I recall correctly that was mentioned somewhere on the original post of wow or along those lines.

[zuxia]

I think most of the warlock community is fine with the complexity, and thinks dps should go a bit higher as a reward.

What I am fighting here is double-dipping punishment for failing to pull off the rotation.

Currently if you clip a spell, you not only lose the tick but you also lose that tick's mana cost. For example, since you get 5 ticks out of UA, clipping one costs you 20% of its mana with no damage dealt. Then later you have to lifetap more and thus your dps goes lower.

This change simply makes it less punishing to clip your dots, such that a new warlock / shadow priest who is told "keep your dots up 100% of the time" can do so without external addons while maintaining a level of DPS that is competitive. Failing to refresh on time costs you DPS AND Mana. It should not cost you both.


Also, all dots will crit soon (3.1 or 3.2) - DPS should increase as a result.

Sure it should same goes with any other tree that uses COA..which is minimal damage in the amount of rotation. Oh..and because of rotation with afflic and timing..the reward is high dps versus other trees, at least from what I see..so again you want to really a easy reward of high dps. Not disagreeing with you that it would not benefit other classes and other trees however it mainly helps..AFFLIC why dot's is afflic power.

[rodobson]

Affliction DPS will not skyrocket with a fix to clipping. It simply allows a person to waste more mana or be slightly inefficient as a tradeoff for issues like lag.

The other specs are going to recieve boosts as well, and time has proven that destro scales very well with gear. This change could help affliction keep up into the later tiers.

Its all about making the spec fun to play, it shouldn't be about working hard for a greater reward or miss a gcd and do poorly. The working hard part of raiding is being prepared and knowing what to do on the fights. Blizz wants all specs to be close in damage and enjoyable by all. Apparently many people complained about affliction so they decided to make changes. Those who don't like change should play a different game, because this one changes every patch, usually for the better now.

Does anyone have an arguement of why this would be bad for the current state of the game?

On a DPS note, I play 31/40 with my imp and I compete dead even with the best mage I know, and we are evenly geared. Our hunter is MM and always #1 and he knows he is broken ). My guilds Spriests and warriors are also very competetive DPS. Im talking WWS with the hunter at 9% dmg done, and everyone else at7%.
DPS seems pretty good. Rogues, ele shaman are the ones lagging in pve dmg, pulling around 4-5%
If I were affliction would I catch up to the hunter? Maybe, but I'm not worried about it.

Does anyone have an arguement of why this would be bad for the game?

[zuxia]

Affliction DPS will not skyrocket with a fix to clipping. It simply allows a person to waste more mana or be slightly inefficient as a tradeoff for issues like lag.

The other specs are going to recieve boosts as well, and time has proven that destro scales very well with gear. This change could help affliction keep up into the later tiers.

Its all about making the spec fun to play, it shouldn't be about working hard for a greater reward or miss a gcd and do poorly. The working hard part of raiding is being prepared and knowing what to do on the fights. Blizz wants all specs to be close in damage and enjoyable by all. Apparently many people complained about affliction so they decided to make changes. Those who don't like change should play a different game, because this one changes every patch, usually for the better now.

Does anyone have an arguement of why this would be bad for the current state of the game?

On a DPS note, I play 31/40 with my imp and I compete dead even with the best mage I know, and we are evenly geared. Our hunter is MM and always #1 and he knows he is broken ). My guilds Spriests and warriors are also very competetive DPS. Im talking WWS with the hunter at 9% dmg done, and everyone else at7%.
DPS seems pretty good. Rogues, ele shaman are the ones lagging in pve dmg, pulling around 4-5%
If I were affliction would I catch up to the hunter? Maybe, but I'm not worried about it.

Does anyone have an arguement of why this would be bad for the game?

Just stating put some effort into other trees..and yes according to author of thread you would gain back 20% of dps lost due to a miss on rotation...add that up..gets dps added up real quick.

[rodobson]

Its not a damage increase really,the potential damage is already there and not being changed,its damage per cast time. Currently if you let a dot expire you get the full DPCT, if you recast and clip you just arent being as efficient as you could be.

Bad/laggy players simply regain that elusive 20%, those playing to perfection now could relax a little and see no change. Those who get angry at the though of relaxing need some Lexapro.

I am confident they are buffing Demo and destro as well, they said they were. Would be nice if they mentioned some of thier ideas but its certainly not required of them. Currently though all 3 specs are viable.

Hunters are 1k DPS above average right now, rogues and ele shaman are 1k below average. Those are some real issues. Warriors/DK could be toned down a bit as well, being hybrids they are more than competetive, they are equal in DPS to the pure classes(bar hunters and rogues atm)

[gherkin]

Just stating put some effort into other trees..and yes according to author of thread you would gain back 20% of dps lost due to a miss on rotation...add that up..gets dps added up real quick.

So let me get this straight. Here are the facts:
1) Someone who has mastery of the game will never clip their spells
2) Therefore, the suggested change will not increase the damage output of the master
3) This change doesnt not change the damage output of average players, as I posted on page 2 of the wow forum post.
4) DoT Clipping therefore only punishes bad players, or new players.
5) This will increase the damage for all bad players.
6) This will bring 1200dps warlocks up to the rest of the pack.
7) This will not give 4000 dps warlocks any extra output in anyway.

I am saying I am sick and tired of seeing people amazed at my dps because "All of my guilds warlocks cant top 1500". I am saying that bad players should not lose dps because they cast the spell early, for all specs. I am saying that the more people who reroll Death Knight, Mage, or whatever, the worse our class will be. I am saying that the learning curve should remain in place but not be so punishing while you learn.

You are saying the game should punish bad players, inexperienced players, or new players for failing to cast spell X at a certain point in time. You are saying that these bad players should play Destruction or Demonology where clipping isn't such a major deal.

You are saying that Destruction can do without DoTs. According to some WWS parses, COA and Corruption make up ~12% of your total dps. -20% and you have just lost 3% of your overall dps. This is the same as leaving 3 talent points unspent.

You don't want new players to have that 3% damage? Are you that much of an asshat?