Trade 10 x Heroism for 1 x Valor?

[Iosif]

All you people saying emblems of valor are easy to get seem to be forgetting not all people want to do 25-man instances. Sure, now you can say "well if you don't want to do them, you don't deserve the gear", but then again, shouldn't WoW, just like life, have a few different options on how to proceed?

What will 5-man and 10-man players do when the next patch with Ulduar comes, and the only upgrades given, and the only new content, is 25-man? Quit the game?

Guess what. If WoW had only the 25-man raiders left, 12 million would soon shrink to 1-2 million. If that.

In Vanilla, us non-raiders were given T0.5, so that we too would have something to do, and have some progression.

In TBC, we were given badges, and that worked fine.

But then again, it's all back to the VIP raider elitism isn't it. Even though you'd be ready to put in 100x the time and effort to get something by doing solo, 5-man, and nowadays 10-man content, the VIP raiders always seem to push you down, saying you don't deserve anything.

All I have to say is, good thing capitalism listens to the majority. We're (non-raiders) not quite forgotten yet.

If raiders don't "deserve something" why do you? Why should someone be able to limp thou heroics to get the best raiding gear available? I mean honestly do you listen to your self? Your utter hate of raiders has blinded you to the fact that they do put in a significant amount of effort in to what they do. And sure 75 hours of Heroics might seem like a lot of work but really is a heroic that hard? Your trying to replace hard work, organization and Team work with time invested there is a lot more in to raiding then simply "time invested".

Next thing your going to claim is that you should be able to buy the BEST PvP gear out there with just honor.

Simple way to look at it.

Casual Players get iL200
Heroics/10man Tokens= iL200
Battlegrounds/Honor = iL200

Hardcore Players get iL213
Valor/25man Token = iL213
Arena Points = iL213

If you cant accept that then maybe you should look for game that gives you almost everything for free or will allow you to buy everything from vendors. Maybe they should offer a wider variety of gear thou the badge system but i think the separation the iL200 and iL213 was a good call there is a difference but it is pretty small.

[anyaka21]

also WTB tabard rep from raid dungeons. I have no use for emblems of heroism any more, thus grinding rep in heroics when you pretty much alreayd have all the achievements, becomes pointless.

[Iosif]

Well... Ok. Point taken.

Still, no 5-man progression for those who don't have the time to run a full 10-man. Guess they're just stuck with what they have, without having a goal toward which to build their character.

You cant get a full set of iL200 epics from the Badge/Rep vendors and craftables. There is a goal you just don't like the fact that it is not the vary vary best gear in the game.

[Brasko]

Hardcore Players get iL213
Valor/25man Token = iL213
Arena Points = iL213

Naxx 25.




Hardcore.




I lol'd.

[Saraduahn]

5 emblems an hour is NOT decently fast. 10-15 emblems an hour is. Most of the dungeons that have 4-5 badges can be cleared in 20-30 minutes.

Yes, I know. I clear them that fast easily.

...because I'm already geared. With an experienced group. And have no need to turn in EoH for t7.5 gear.


Try running heroics with PuGs in mostly blues, including the time it takes to put a group together. Because that's what many/most casuals who aren't in raiding guilds must face. For them, including time to find the group, 5 emblems an hour isn't bad.

But who cares. Let's say they get 15 emblems per hour.

It will take 50 hours of heroics for ONE piece of t7.5 legs. That's 10-15 FULL clears of Naxx-25 with a decent group that knows that it's doing. So giving a causal one piece of t7.5 for 50 hours of heroics still doesn't seem unreasonable to me at all. That's still an exorbitant amount of time compared to what you get out of actually just doing the raids.

[K21Nova]

Is running a heroic hard? Maybe not.

Is following the raid as a DPS class, while watching TV, engaging the boss and spamming a few buttons to shoot a few bolts or do a few strikes, hard? Maybe not.

Now, admittedly, is leading a guild hard? Is leading a raid hard? Hard enough. Then again, nobody forces you to do it. Is tanking hard? Healing hard? Harder than DPS, that's for damn sure.

There's only 1 raid leader, only a couple tanks and a couple healers.

Rest are sheeples. Do they deserve their gear? Not really.

[Iosif]

Is running a heroic hard? Maybe not.

Is following the raid as a DPS class, while watching TV, engaging the boss and spamming a few buttons to shoot a few bolts or do a few strikes, hard? Maybe not.

Now, admittedly, is leading a guild hard? Is leading a raid hard? Hard enough. Then again, nobody forces you to do it. Is tanking hard? Healing hard? Harder than DPS, that's for damn sure.

There's only 1 raid leader, only a couple tanks and a couple healers.

Rest are sheeples. Do they deserve their gear? Not really.

Any decent DPS works their ass off if all you do is mash a few keys wile watching TV that is the reason you need top gear to via 5-mans to do any damage. Is it exceptionally hard to raid not in Wrath, but to say that someone dose not deserve gear because they are not a raid leader, tank, healer or apparently you. Is pretty stupid and selfish, good DPS work hard at doing max damage in all situation wile staying alive and not getting others killed. The last time i checked Healers/Tanks and the 1 leader sure as hell don't make the boss die. And I have Tanked/Healed and DPSed in Wrath, ATM being DPS is harder then being a tank or healer assuming you have any reasonable amount of skill and competence.

[Kimmuriel]

What this whittles down to is simple. When you hit the lvl cap of 80 how else do you progress and further the development of your character?

The answer is gear.


Casual players and more hardcore individuals can get better gear. The difference between the two is the speed at which they do it.

Casual players can easily have access to raid content. It's not so difficult to get into and casually participate in raiding. Some raiding guilds may even appreciate a few casuals in the raid to avoid DE-ing epics. It might be a slow week and not many raiders are on line so your casual members can fill in slots.

To flatly state that you don't do 25man content because you don't like it and don't want to do it is fair enough but just buying this game does not entitle you to every reward.

The higher item level rewards are as much a reward for working in a larger group and to promote a social aspect to wow along with a greater sense of achievement.

To reward an individual with items that previously were only obtainable through co- operative play and larger numbers - diminishes the sense of achievement for playing with 24 other people and as such the number of people that may have once been happy to go to a 25man raid will diminish in favour of more relaxed, but ultimately less social, solo play.


In my opinion, making it possible to obtain 25man gear via 5man content is wrong because I don't like the idea of banding together with like minded players and arranging 25man raids for a guild so everyone can come together and down a few bosses and share out loot, to have several people drop out at the last minute because they're 2-3 heroic badges shy of thier T7.5 legs.

[K21Nova]

...just...don't keep saying "casual", when it's not about that.

I have a friend who has 3 level 80 and other 9 level 70 characters (yes, part Alliance, part Horde), each of which was decently 5-man geared before WotLK. He did zero raids. His /played is most likely a multiple of many of the people here. He's not a casual. He just chooses not to raid.

He raided Naxxramas in Vanilla.

He got fed up.

Now he's one of "us". I'm not casual either. I raid a 10-man here and there, since now it's about as easy as UBRS used to be. I'm not a raider. I'm not a casual.

Just keep it raider vs non-raider. Casual or not, it has nothing to do with anything.