1. #1

    Beyond DPS: How to use WWS properly

    Lots of people just look at the DPS numbers in WWS and assume it "close enough" reflects people's skill.

    To try to combat this, I'm writing a series of posts about how to properly use WWS to look at your DPS.

    They have pictures and stuff so aren't easy to paste in, but here's the links so far:

    Beyond DPS (Part 1): Understanding the class detail page
    Beyond DPS (Part 2): Interpreting the Numbers

    And the introduction:



    Over the next few blog posts I’m going to write down the beginnings of what will eventually be a full strat article.

    A very common error I see in raidleaders is not knowing how to use tools like WWS. I had a guildleader talking to me a few weeks ago about their Sarth 3D kill, and he casually said “Yeah we sat mage X because his dps is just terrible, and he’s in the best gear we can give him.”

    So I asked him for the WWS link and looked at it.

    Mage X was actually their best mage, but he was undergeared by about 20% relative to the other mages. He was the only one actually using the proper set of abilities on a raid. Now, perhaps he was the right person to sit since what mattered was sheer dps. But then the raidleader said to me:

    So you’re trying to tell me that mage X is our best mage? Really? We thought he was the worst…

    Today’s topic: The class detail page

  2. #2

    Re: Beyond DPS: How to use WWS properly

    Hmm, while you make some good points, there are things that I would be careful of when evaulating the WWS. To use the mage example (since i am one ;D), you talk about luck in terms of the hotstreak procs. While it is obviously at the mercy of the RNG, the WWS can't tell you when the mage is just missing the proc altogether. So the low amount of pyroblast ticks could also be a function of the mage missing the procs, not just luck. Thats about it. Nice blog though.

  3. #3

    Re: Beyond DPS: How to use WWS properly

    Quote Originally Posted by arnorian
    Hmm, while you make some good points, there are things that I would be careful of when evaulating the WWS. To use the mage example (since i am one ;D), you talk about luck in terms of the hotstreak procs. While it is obviously at the mercy of the RNG, the WWS can't tell you when the mage is just missing the proc altogether. So the low amount of pyroblast ticks could also be a function of the mage missing the procs, not just luck. Thats about it. Nice blog though.
    WWS can't, although it ought to be able to.

    Stasis can: you compare the number of times you get the buff with the number of times Pyroblast hit.

    I hope WWS will improve.

    You actually *could* figure it out by going into the WWS log, looking for all the pyro's, and counting up the big hits -- but that's more than I wanted to cover there .


    I chose WWS as the topic for this article since most people use it.

  4. #4

    Re: Beyond DPS: How to use WWS properly

    Yeah, actually going through all the data, especially from a 4hr long raid would be arduous to say the least. But I like the idea of someone making a blog about how to use the WWS. I am the mage lead for my guild and it is infuriating to continually make references to the WWS log and have no one actually use it. It is such a great tool, it's a shame so many people waste it

  5. #5

    Re: Beyond DPS: How to use WWS properly

    if u want to filter wws log and want to find out mage X number of pyroblasts + theyr effects :

    filter : unit=X and spell=pyroblast

    x= playername for example : unit=oceanfly and spell=pyroblast

  6. #6

    Re: Beyond DPS: How to use WWS properly

    Quote Originally Posted by oceanfly
    if u want to filter wws log and want to find out mage X number of pyroblasts + theyr effects :

    filter : unit=X and spell=pyroblast

    x= playername for example : unit=oceanfly and spell=pyroblast
    Ya, it's still manual though is the problem.

    e.g.: http://wowwebstats.com/tdnomktelxxqo...22pyroblast%22

    You still have to look through and count the non-dots.


    It's a solvable problem, but unfortunately it's hard to get the attention from the WWS devs.

  7. #7

    Re: Beyond DPS: How to use WWS properly

    Quote Originally Posted by arnorian
    Yeah, actually going through all the data, especially from a 4hr long raid would be arduous to say the least. But I like the idea of someone making a blog about how to use the WWS. I am the mage lead for my guild and it is infuriating to continually make references to the WWS log and have no one actually use it. It is such a great tool, it's a shame so many people waste it
    Yeah I'd like to cover the basics first -- right now it's "how not to screw over your undergeared raiders by thinking they suck", which tends to be a self-fulfilling prophecy ("oh he's terrible, let's not give him gear" wut.)

    But then I'd like to get into some more advanced topics too. I mean, I'm in a darn good guild and 98% of our raiders can't read beyond the damage chart either .


    In the background I'm working on a tool to let you compare performance between two people even if the fights are different lengths and they're in different guilds.

    All the work is done, but need to make it pretty and add some caching so I don't abuse WWS.


  8. #8

    Re: Beyond DPS: How to use WWS properly

    I would appreciate it if your strats could also cover WMO (wowmeteronline), since the future of WWS is not clear. I would also like to point out that the Developers in WMO tend do more Feature request if it doesn't involve more load on there systems.

    and example of how they compare classes in a fight:

    http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat...98/mag#general

    as you can see it does show how many Hot Streak he got in the buffer tab.

  9. #9

    Re: Beyond DPS: How to use WWS properly

    Quote Originally Posted by Fad
    I would appreciate it if your strats could also cover WMO (wowmeteronline), since the future of WWS is not clear. I would also like to point out that the Developers in WMO tend do more Feature request if it doesn't involve more load on there systems.

    and example of how they compare classes in a fight:

    http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat...98/mag#general

    as you can see it does show how many Hot Streak he got in the buffer tab.
    Right now WWS still has the bulk of the market share that I've seen. And everything I've written about WWS has applied to WoWMeter online, just the structure is sometimes slightly different.

    If there's anything you can't figure out, please just post and I'll see if I can figure it out myself.


    My problem with WoWMeter is that the interface is still poorly designed: it's harder to get the information you need at a glance than WWS is.

    I prefer Stasis, but there still isn't a hosted version of Stasis out there.

    And someone recently posted about DejaWoW...?

    Lots of parsing options these days!

  10. #10

    Re: Beyond DPS: How to use WWS properly

    Kyth thank you very much for this instructive analysis.. I believe that could help a lot of people out there who actually think they read all there was to see in the WWS logs.

    Finally someone who reads WWS deep enough to get true informations out of it and not another wannabe-socalled-minmaxer who thinks because he looks at the main sheet of WWS he is the OP thoerycrafter of the century..

    I have to admit mages are not the class I know by heart (didn't have time to deeply update my class knowledge @ 80 yet) but I just felt you were using the exact same methodology I used for analysing druidish data..



  11. #11

    Re: Beyond DPS: How to use WWS properly

    http://wowwebstats.com/b6qpj25kwzbwu...66897&ab=48108
    http://wowwebstats.com/b6qpj25kwzbwu...66897&ab=42891

    These 2 links together show that dear Jimoteh got 5 Hot Streak buffs during the fight, and he hit Sartharion with 2 Pyro's.
    To me it seems that he missed 3 of his procs, so you can see it fine with WWS?
    The only thing that might possibly be missed is 2 procs in a row where he is too slow to use it, and the second refreshes the first.

  12. #12

    Re: Beyond DPS: How to use WWS properly

    Quote Originally Posted by mavl
    http://wowwebstats.com/b6qpj25kwzbwu...66897&ab=48108
    http://wowwebstats.com/b6qpj25kwzbwu...66897&ab=42891

    These 2 links together show that dear Jimoteh got 5 Hot Streak buffs during the fight, and he hit Sartharion with 2 Pyro's.
    To me it seems that he missed 3 of his procs, so you can see it fine with WWS?
    The only thing that might possibly be missed is 2 procs in a row where he is too slow to use it, and the second refreshes the first.
    No, it actually shows that he got 4 -- this is one of the worst parts of WWS, which is that you can't look at that line: it only shows the number of non-crit spells. Click anywhere on the line (not the person's name, but anywhere else) and you'll see it drop down and suddenly you see the *useful* detail:

    Code:
    Landed	Dot	Crit	Glanc	Crush	All Miss	Miss	Resist	Block	Parry	Dodge	Other
    Nb 	2	16	2									
    % 	50 %		50 %									
    Avg 	4831	267	8201		
    Max 	4950	298	9497
    You have to add "landed" to "crit" to get the number of nukes.

    In this case he only missed one, which could've been at the end of the fight -- that's definitely possible and has happened to me plenty. And not because I was too slow to use it, just because the last nuke I could land crit also and then he died.


    It's good to see the personal detail screen shows it, even if it's a horribly-designed screen. Stasis and WoWMeter still do a better job by not hiding it behind two clicks.


  13. #13

    Re: Beyond DPS: How to use WWS properly

    Part 3 is up: Part 3: And a little bit of math

    It shows how with simple math you can understand if anyone is doing decently, and also discusses the role that haste has in that.

    We answer the burning question of: Alohomora had more Living Bomb ticks but was that enough? Or did he actually do badly?


    At the end I have a list of potential future topics:

    # the personal detail page, including the buffs/debuffs.
    # Analyzing a raid after the fact: were people damaging the right mobs?
    # Signs of bad play to look for in various classes
    # How to use the death log information (and why we hate priests)
    # WWS Filters for fun and profit
    # How to use “Who Heals Whom” and “Who Hits Whom”


    If anyone has any other ideas of topics they'd like to see, please post here and let me know.


  14. #14

    Re: Beyond DPS: How to use WWS properly

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyth
    Right now WWS still has the bulk of the market share that I've seen. And everything I've written about WWS has applied to WoWMeter online, just the structure is sometimes slightly different.

    If there's anything you can't figure out, please just post and I'll see if I can figure it out myself.


    My problem with WoWMeter is that the interface is still poorly designed: it's harder to get the information you need at a glance than WWS is.

    I prefer Stasis, but there still isn't a hosted version of Stasis out there.

    And someone recently posted about DejaWoW...?

    Lots of parsing options these days!
    I would thank you if you can point out what it is exactly about "it's harder to get the information you need at a glance than WWS is"

    I would like to know anything bad about wowmeteronline and try to improve it in the future.

    And also what's better about WWS compare to WMO...

    Thx a lot!


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