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  1. #1

    FFB - crit or haste ?

    hey all, i play a FFB mage, i dont have any problems with my dps or something but im still wondering what would be the best stat at some point for the ffb mage,
    here armory link : http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...usher&n=Immeke

    atm i got arround 33% crit self buffed
    i have 279 haste ( 8.5% )
    from what should i take most profit at this point ?
    go on with stacking crit or get some more haste ?

    greetz and thx for ur time


  2. #2

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    To not be a jerk, haste actually outscales crit by a very slim margin with the level of gear we have available to us at the moment. But that dosent mean just forget about crit and stack haste of course, but more haste is a good idea. This is, of course, if you have no mana issues on longer boss fights.

  3. #3

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    As soon as you hit 32% CRIT (unbuffed) which puts you to 50% CRIT (raid):

    1 Haste rating > 1 Crit rating.

    it's only 0.01% or something like that, but the more crit you get, the better haste becomes.

    Thus: Get haste, but don't neglect crit totally. At least 50% CRIT raidbuffed is the key
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  4. #4

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    Agree with above poster that that seems to be the general consensus. At lower gear levels, however, crit is slightly better than haste.

    However it's a complex matter and I don't think anyone has demonstrated this relationship to be true for all combinations and fights, Rawr simulations aside.

    Some points to consider:
    • The differences are small
    • Haste doesn't improve DPM, crit does
    • Crit is more FUN (according to me).



  5. #5

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korred
    As soon as you hit 32% CRIT (unbuffed) which puts you to 50% CRIT (raid):

    1 Haste rating > 1 Crit rating.

    it's only 0.01% or something like that, but the more crit you get, the better haste becomes.

    Thus: Get haste, but don't neglect crit totally. At least 50% CRIT raidbuffed is the key
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  6. #6
    High Overlord Zehlkatur's Avatar
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    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    I tend to find crit more appealing, because it boosts ur dps almost as mutch as haste. But it also increase ur manareg wich i find is a problem in raids if I don't have a replinishment in my raidgroup. That is if you are using molten armor, with mage armor the manareg is ofcourse no problems, but 3% crit is allways 3%crit.
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  7. #7

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hestedraeber
    Some points to consider:
    • The differences are small
    • Haste doesn't improve DPM, crit does
    • Crit is more FUN (according to me).
    Haste = more casts per time = more mana consumed per time = more crit-possibilities per time = more mana regenerated through that talent who's name I forgot = less/more dpm

    True, Crit increases your dpm.

    BUT haste also can increase dpm. The calculation how strong haste increases your chance to crit may be... nitpicky (is that how you say it?) but in the end haste is probably not the pure dpm-looser it is always told to be. So dpm wise, the more crit, the better the dpm-change haste provides (for got or for bad)
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  8. #8

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zehlkatur
    but 3% crit is allways 3%crit.
    THAT is the problem. It is not.

    the first 50% crit are like "WHOA! every second cast crits" but then with every second cast already critting, he increase you gain from 1% crit is lower than what you got from 1% crit before. (I'm not saying 50% is the line for crit scaling worse and worse, it's a slow decay of crit-scaling through the percentages.)

    The line of haste suffering that decay is still a looooong time away (without heroism & icy veins & speed potion that is), that's why I personally like haste.
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  9. #9
    High Overlord Zehlkatur's Avatar
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    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korred
    THAT is the problem. It is not.

    the first 50% crit are like "WHOA! every second cast crits" but then with every second cast already critting, he increase you gain from 1% crit is lower than what you got from 1% crit before. (I'm not saying 50% is the line for crit scaling worse and worse, it's a slow decay of crit-scaling through the percentages.)

    The line of haste suffering that decay is still a looooong time away (without heroism & icy veins & speed potion that is), that's why I personally like haste.
    Ok, I have to admit that you got me pretty solid there. Haven't thought of it that way, thanks for clearing it out for me.
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  10. #10
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    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    And haste improves your aoe damage better then crit imo
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  11. #11

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korred
    the first 50% crit are like "WHOA! every second cast crits" but then with every second cast already critting, he increase you gain from 1% crit is lower than what you got from 1% crit before
    You should stop and think before you write something so absurd. There is absolutely no difference between going from 14% to 15%, 49% to 50%, or 99% to 100% crit. There is no magic number of crit % above which every crit point diminishes in value.

    Think about what is really going on and why haste becomes a good stat at high gear levels then post again.

  12. #12

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blutelf
    You should stop and think before you write something so absurd. There is absolutely no difference between going from 14% to 15%, 49% to 50%, or 99% to 100% crit. There is no magic number of crit % above which every crit point diminishes in value.
    I know what you're trying to say here, but you're also wrong with this statement.  :P

  13. #13

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korred
    BUT haste also can increase dpm.
    No, haste does not increase DPM (Damage Per Mana). Obviously spellpower increases DPM and also crit, but haste does not.

  14. #14

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blutelf
    You should stop and think before you write something so absurd. There is absolutely no difference between going from 14% to 15%, 49% to 50%, or 99% to 100% crit. There is no magic number of crit % above which every crit point diminishes in value.
    You should stop and read what he wrote : what he said is exact.

    If you have 10% crit, on 100 hits 10 will be crits.

    Add 1% crit, and you will obtain 11 crits. This means that you have 10% more crits than before. Hence you have slightly increased you dps, of a factor 111/110 for instance. This is basic maths.

    Now suppose that you have 20%. On 100 hits, 20 will be crits.

    Add 1% crit, and you will obtain 21 crits. This means you have 5% more crits than before. Hence you have increased you dps of a factor 121/120, which is less than 111/100.

    Hence the dps increase provided by 1% crit is less if you already have a lot of crit than if you have not. This has nothing to do with a mechanism of diminishing returns of whatever. This is basic maths.

    It works the same with Spell Damage, Hit Rating (and moreover this one becomes completely useless after you've reached the cap), and the other stats in fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ratsastaa
    Lol everything is like that, the more sp you have the better haste is... idiot.
    I think you didn't understand. He didn't say that the more SP you have, the better you haste is (which is true, obvious, and not really interesting).

    He said that the more SP (or crit, or haste, or whatever) you have, the less it is interesting to increase it.

    Yes, everything is like that : each point you add to a stat is less interesting than the one you added to this stat earlier. This does not mean that it is less interesting to add points to this stat rather to another one.

    It depends of the stat, of the class, of the talents.

  15. #15

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    You don't seem to understand basic math tbh

    The way you explain is only correct if you take your example.

    But 1% extra crit never means 10% more crit. It might mean that with small pools like your 100 casts but in the long run it smooths out to 1% and if it doesn't then blizzard's code is off

  16. #16

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulder
    You don't seem to understand basic math tbh

    The way you explain is only correct if you take your example.

    But 1% extra crit never means 10% more crit. It might mean that with small pools like your 100 casts but in the long run it smooths out to 1% and if it doesn't then blizzard's code is off
    I think its you who doesnt understand.

    The % is calculed on what you have before.

    Put it simple: You have 1% crit. You increase it by 1%, you increased your crit by 100% of what you already had.

    But if you have 2% crit, and gain 1% crit from an item, you only increased what you already had, by 50%, so the upgrade isnt as big.

    So again. The more crit % you have(or any other stat, haste or SP) the next % you gain always worth less than the previous one.

    It's the same thing for any % stat.
    (It doesnt seem logic here, but for, lets say, Mitigation(dmg reduction % from armor, it really is important to think about it).
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  17. #17

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulder
    You don't seem to understand basic math tbh

    The way you explain is only correct if you take your example.

    But 1% extra crit never means 10% more crit. It might mean that with small pools like your 100 casts but in the long run it smooths out to 1% and if it doesn't then blizzard's code is off
    For a larger sample size...lets say you cast 1 million spells at 10%, so 100k land as crits. Bump crit to 11%...110k land. 110k compared to 100k is a 10% increase.

    Again, 1 million spells at 20%, so 200k land as crits. Bump crit to 21%...210k land. 210k compared to 200k is a 5% increase.

    The laws of large numbers is completely irrelevent if you are dealing with ideal situations and no random factors. Were he using numbers from 1 specific raid, your argument may be valid...but he was using idealistic values to prove a point, so using 100 or 11 billion casts, the numbers would have worked out the same.

  18. #18

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    Mages always get tripped up by a few things here:

    1) Adding 1% crit is worth exactly the same amount of absolute DPS whether you have 5% crit or 50% crit. However the relative DPS increase is higher when you have lower crit.

    2) Going from say 50% crit to 51% crit doesn't increase your DPS by 151/150. That would only be true if your crits do double damage. Actually your crit should be doing 330+% damage with frostfire.

    3) The huge crit bonus means that 1% crit is almost always better than 1% haste. HOWEVER haste requires less rating to get 1%, which skews it the other way. It's a balancing act.

  19. #19

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulder
    You don't seem to understand basic math tbh
    Actually, as he just postet, its the other way around...

    Its always funny discussing thing like this, because it fast becomes evident how hard basic math and percentages are for most people
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  20. #20

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tickspoon
    1) Adding 1% crit is worth exactly the same amount of absolute DPS whether you have 5% crit or 50% crit. However the relative DPS increase is higher when you have lower crit.than 1% haste. HOWEVER haste requires less rating to get 1%, which skews it the other way. It's a balancing act.
    The words absolute and relative and the reason people argue - nice someone finally pointed this out
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