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  1. #21

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tickspoon
    3) The huge crit bonus means that 1% crit is almost always better than 1% haste. HOWEVER haste requires less rating to get 1%, which skews it the other way. It's a balancing act.
    And this gets to the crux of it all I guess. Also, does spell crit suffer from diminishing returns in any way similar to dodge/parry for a tank, or is 10 crit rating the same crit bonus the entire way? Knowing the reasoning behind the diminishing returns on the tank values, I can see why that wouldn't be as big an issue for crit/haste/etc., I was just curious.

    I haven't played my mage since WotLK came out so I wasn't sure if they fiddled with that formula at all.

  2. #22

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    Ok ok seems like i don't understand basic math

    Quote Originally Posted by Googolplex
    The words absolute and relative and the reason people argue - nice someone finally pointed this out
    And i guess that's the reason why

  3. #23

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    Quote Originally Posted by CSJenova
    And this gets to the crux of it all I guess. Also, does spell crit suffer from diminishing returns in any way similar to dodge/parry for a tank, or is 10 crit rating the same crit bonus the entire way? Knowing the reasoning behind the diminishing returns on the tank values, I can see why that wouldn't be as big an issue for crit/haste/etc., I was just curious.

    I haven't played my mage since WotLK came out so I wasn't sure if they fiddled with that formula at all.
    At lvl 80, 10crit will be the same crit % all the way. It requires more rating for 1% only as you lvlup, not with more gear.

    So no DR, but as you lvlup, it takes more crit rating for 1% crit.
    Retired.Main:Gotts.80Warrior
    Retired.Alt:Xarathor.80Shaman
    Retired.Alt:Lurked.80Mage
    Retired.Alt:Cowned.80Druid

  4. #24

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    Thanks lurked. I knew it changed as you leveled up, but I wasn't sure about once you were at level cap. Thank you for informing me

  5. #25

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    I think you guys are confusing avoidance with doing damage.

  6. #26

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    Just to add to the conversation, some genius(es) on EJ figured out the formula for the chance that your next spell will proc HS based on your current crit rate:

    C = crit rate (overall)
    H = chance for HS proc

    H = C^2 / (1+C)

    i.e. if I have a 56% chance to crit, my chance to proc hotstreak is 0.201 or 20.1%.

    If I have a 36% chance to crit, H = 0.0953 or 9.53%.

    If I have a 76% chance to crit, H = 32.8%.

    36 -> 56 = +10.57% chance to proc HS.
    56 -> 76 = +12.7% chance to proc HS.
    76 -> 96 = +14.2% chance to proc HS.

    Its fun stuff!

    If i have 100% crit chance, my chance to proc hot streak is 50%, as expected.

  7. #27

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    I really like how this discussion is going (apart from the idiot part, I may be one.. but I was hoping my posts didn't reveal that..)

    I was talking about the slowing down of the relative dps increase from crit through crit-rating.
    (Funny how I'm reading Einstein's text about absolute vs. relative time and space for a seminar right now)

    And for the dpm via haste part: I was serious about that. The more haste you have, the more casts per time you cast.
    Mana per Cast staying the same,
    Mana per Damage staying the same,
    Mana per time increasing

    DPM = Damage per Mana, right?
    So the Damage per Mana is NOT influenced directly through haste. The Mana spent per time (let's say 5 minutes) is increased.
    But the Possible Crits per time (5 minutes) /break

    0 Haste: 5 Minutes = 300 Seconds = 100 FFB casts. (I know there is LB, Pyro, Scorch.... let's just keep it simple here, please)
    X Haste: 5 Minutes = 300 Seconds = 120 FFB casts.
    (X beeing the number of haste you need to get FFb down to 2.5 seconds per cast)
    50% crit. (you can plot a chart for 10% up to 99% if you want.. I won't, I want to keep it simple)

    0 Haste: 50 crits, 50 noncrits
    X haste: 60 crits, 60 noncrits.

    (edit: added the next 3 lines, thus introducing slight repetition.)
    /breakend
    But the Possible Crits per time (5 minutes) is actually increased, thus increasing your DPM (if you can afford 120 instead of 100 casts in the same time)

    Now: With haste, you need mana for 120 casts, but also get 10 more crits out of your 5 minutes. The DPM Stays the same.
    Let's say you have enough mana for 100 casts - even with haste, you will do the same damage per mana - you will just be wanding the last 50 seconds.

    THUS: Haste does not change your DPM - but if you have enough mana to sustain casting all 5 minutes, your DPM will be increased through those 10 more crits and the mana you gain through that skill which gives you mana for crits with the name I keep forgetting.

    Crit vs. Haste dpm-wise, crit wins - because crit increases the dpm more.

    But haste won't lower you DPM as many want you to believe. Only the MPT (mana spent per time) is affected.


    And again: Finally a serious discussion about this matter.
    Champion of the Naaru Hand of A'dal Ambassador Elder Merrymaker Chef Knight-Lieutenant Korred, the red mage, of the Nightfall, the Twilight Vanquisher, the Explorer, the Hallowed, the Argent Champion, Guardian of Cenarius, Jenkins, the Undying.



    Don't be afraid of the end of the world (of warcraft). Be afraid of the unlived life.

  8. #28

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    So...
    Quote Originally Posted by Malentra
    If i have 100% crit chance, my chance to proc hot streak is 50%, as expected.
    You're saying that if I can get 200% crit then HS will proc all the time!!!

    [small bits of brain matter ooze from my ear]

    Basic maths escape me. I play a hunter and I like turtles.

    >.>

    Korred - I think it's Master of Elements that returns mana with crits, but I could be wrong. I could also look it up, but I won't.

  9. #29

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    Quote Originally Posted by KDirtMcGirt
    Korred - I think it's Master of Elements that returns mana with crits, but I could be wrong. I could also look it up, but I won't.
    Thank You!!
    Champion of the Naaru Hand of A'dal Ambassador Elder Merrymaker Chef Knight-Lieutenant Korred, the red mage, of the Nightfall, the Twilight Vanquisher, the Explorer, the Hallowed, the Argent Champion, Guardian of Cenarius, Jenkins, the Undying.



    Don't be afraid of the end of the world (of warcraft). Be afraid of the unlived life.

  10. #30

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ratsastaa
    Lol everything is like that, the more sp you have the better haste is... idiot.
    I feel a bit sorry for Korred making good posts and getting those comments thrown after him.
    He wasn't stating the obvious, he was explaining and comparing it.

  11. #31

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    This may be egoistic, but I hate writing long posts that get last or second to last slot on a page and thus get lost in a thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Korred
    I really like how this discussion is going (apart from the idiot part, I may be one.. but I was hoping my posts didn't reveal that..)

    I was talking about the slowing down of the relative dps increase from crit through crit-rating.
    (Funny how I'm reading Einstein's text about absolute vs. relative time and space for a seminar right now)

    And for the dpm via haste part: I was serious about that. The more haste you have, the more casts per time you cast.
    Mana per Cast staying the same,
    Mana per Damage staying the same,
    Mana per time increasing

    DPM = Damage per Mana, right?
    So the Damage per Mana is NOT influenced directly through haste. The Mana spent per time (let's say 5 minutes) is increased.
    But the Possible Crits per time (5 minutes) /break

    0 Haste: 5 Minutes = 300 Seconds = 100 FFB casts. (I know there is LB, Pyro, Scorch.... let's just keep it simple here, please)
    X Haste: 5 Minutes = 300 Seconds = 120 FFB casts.
    (X beeing the number of haste you need to get FFb down to 2.5 seconds per cast)
    50% crit. (you can plot a chart for 10% up to 99% if you want.. I won't, I want to keep it simple)

    0 Haste: 50 crits, 50 noncrits
    X haste: 60 crits, 60 noncrits.

    (edit: added the next 3 lines, thus introducing slight repetition.)
    /breakend
    But the Possible Crits per time (5 minutes) is actually increased, thus increasing your DPM (if you can afford 120 instead of 100 casts in the same time)

    Now: With haste, you need mana for 120 casts, but also get 10 more crits out of your 5 minutes. The DPM Stays the same.
    Let's say you have enough mana for 100 casts - even with haste, you will do the same damage per mana - you will just be wanding the last 50 seconds.

    THUS: Haste does not change your DPM - but if you have enough mana to sustain casting all 5 minutes, your DPM will be increased through those 10 more crits and the mana you gain through that skill which gives you mana for crits with the name I keep forgetting.

    Crit vs. Haste dpm-wise, crit wins - because crit increases the dpm more.

    But haste won't lower you DPM as many want you to believe. Only the MPT (mana spent per time) is affected.


    And again: Finally a serious discussion about this matter.
    Champion of the Naaru Hand of A'dal Ambassador Elder Merrymaker Chef Knight-Lieutenant Korred, the red mage, of the Nightfall, the Twilight Vanquisher, the Explorer, the Hallowed, the Argent Champion, Guardian of Cenarius, Jenkins, the Undying.



    Don't be afraid of the end of the world (of warcraft). Be afraid of the unlived life.

  12. #32

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    Crit multiplies your damage, and haste makes you cast faster (and kind of multiplies your damage).

    The real question is about where you're at right now. If you have +50 spellpower, spending a lot of points on multipliers (crit and haste) just seems like a waste. Of course, you do get to multiply base damage.

  13. #33

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edorien
    If you have 10% crit, on 100 hits 10 will be crits.
    I'd say should, rather than will. If mount has 1% drop rate that doesn't mean it will drop in 100 runs.
    "There's a difference between us. You think the people of this country exist to provide you with position. I think your position exists to provide those people with freedom. And I go to make sure that they have it."
    - William Wallace

  14. #34

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    At your gear, point for point, crit roughly equals haste in a raid environment.

    My suggestion is check out Rawr if your serious about looking at what stats would be best. Its not perfect but a good guide as lots of time has been put in to try and make it as accurate as possible.

    http://www.codeplex.com/Rawr

  15. #35

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    Let's settle the misconception about "crit decay" once and for all.

    Crit rating as a stat is not subject to any internal diminishing marginal returns, i.e., x points of crit rating always = y points of crit% at the same level no matter what your current crit % is.

    Let's create a simple model. Imagine that you have 1 spell that has a 1 second cast time, and it does 1000 damage on a normal hit, 2000 damage damage on a crit, and you are hit-capped and will never miss.

    Your average dps would be 60*(2000*(Crit%)+1000*(1-Crit%)).

    Below are graphs of (1) Average dps as a function of Crit%; and (2) %dps increase per 1% crit as a function of Crit% --



    As you can clearly see, dps increases linearly with crit%. It's only the additional % dps from additional crit that suffers from any decay, but that exact relationship would exist for just about any other stat (spellpower, etc.). That's not exactly a profound conclusion though, because the only way that % dps from any additional stat could increase linearly is if the dps contribution of that stat increased exponentially.

  16. #36

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?




    kthxbye
    Awesome since 1986 - Armory

  17. #37

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Myzrael
    I'd say should, rather than will. If mount has 1% drop rate that doesn't mean it will drop in 100 runs.
    It does mean that in 100 runs, it will drop. It does NOT mean you will be in that run, thus your view will be skewed(OMG, 220 runs and still no mount QQQQQQQQQQQ).

  18. #38

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    Crit% is nota stat that dictates how many crits you will recieve in 100 casts... but simply what CHANCE each cast has to crit.

    The FFB spec is very RNG... and I've seen occasions where people with 10% LESS crit% generate more crits than the next fellow, with nearly identical numbers of casts.

    Of course a higher crit chance does equate, on average, to a higher number of crits.

    On the other hand, Haste is guaranteed, not averaged. While 1% crit adds the possibility of 1 more cast to crit in 100, 1% haste DOES equal one more cast in the same time as 100 casts.

    Not only is that extra cast guaranteed to happen, but it can also crit. (assuming hit cap)

    On a 3rd hand (who doesn't have 3 hands) The FFB build is VERY crit dependant. Requiring 2 crits in a row for a Hot Streak Proc, relying on the high FFB crit damage coefficient, 4 set T7 Bonus, Chaotic Skyflare Diamond. Being able to cast faster does not increase the "chance" of 2 crits in a row directly... however, by increasing the number of casts, you increase the chance that two will crit in a given period of time.


    Boss encaounters are not determined by # of casts... 100 casts and the boss dies. It's simply based on damage output.

    Crit chance MAY put out more damage in 50 casts... Haste % may.

    But one thing is sure... Heroism, Icy Veins, Haste Potions, Trinkets, etc... when procced, sure seem to be "the ticket" to increasing damage over a short period of time.... I don;t see many "poppeed" CD's that increase crit chance by 15%, etc...

    I believe that an even balance of these stats is the way to go... too heavy on any stat will not benefit, as the low stats will equally offset the benefit

    They are close, so on pieces that offer similar haste/crit comparison... opt for the one you are lower in. (endgame gearing)


    "Nobody sits Baby in a boring, cartoon corner!"

  19. #39

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    In terms of pure dps increase, point for point haste beats crit by a noticeable margin. Not only does 1% additional haste beat 1% additional crit, the amount of dps it adds will increase the more you have, as opposed to crit which increases linearly. Furthermore, it takes less haste rating to get 1% more haste than the amount of crit rating you need to get 1% more crit.

    However most of the good posts here are probably on target in terms of practical play, because there are dps benefits to talents triggered by crit. The general consensus that there is a roughly optimal amount of crit to aim for, then stack haste is right on the money.

  20. #40

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Koto_and_Juri
    It does mean that in 100 runs, it will drop.
    That is wrong. It may drop 0 times, or even a hundred times, even though it's very unlikely.

    Generally, people should get a better understanding of how percents work.

    And what makes haste good compared to crit is because of the rating required. Crit is very expensive, as you will need a lot of crit rating to get 1% crit. But you will need less haste rating to get 1% haste. So even though 1% crit may/is better than 1% haste, the rating required to achieve that generally even it out.

    But as with everything else, you cannot stack up on just one stat. If you have high crit but low haste, haste will usually be better to get than additional crit. And the other way around.

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