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  1. #61

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korred
    As soon as you hit 32% CRIT (unbuffed) which puts you to 50% CRIT (raid):

    1 Haste rating > 1 Crit rating.

    it's only 0.01% or something like that, but the more crit you get, the better haste becomes.

    Thus: Get haste, but don't neglect crit totally. At least 50% CRIT raidbuffed is the key
    This

  2. #62

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    Quote Originally Posted by aikouka
    Also, people... what they're trying to say is that over a period of time, with a percent chance of occurrence, eventually the limit will converge upon the x%. Yes, if I have 50% chance to crit and cast 100 spells, chances are I wouldn't see a perfect 50 crits... heck, I could see all 100 crit! That's not what they're trying to say. The idea is that as you approach the limit (infinity), the value becomes closer and closer to the percent chance. But please note, it doesn't take until some crazy number of occurrences to get close to the value in question.

    No. Your Damage Per Mana (DPM) will never change with haste. Frostfire (untalented) is 14% of base mana and if you cast five of them, you have spent 60% of your base mana. If each Frostfire deals 5000 damage and I do this in 15 seconds or 12.5 seconds, nothing has truly changed. I still dealt 25,000 damage for the cost of 60% of my base mana. The difference is that my damage per second has gone up as 25,000/12.5 > 25,000/15.0.

    I think at this point you're truly reaching to prove that haste affects damage per mana and the argument is a bit silly. Yes, we all know critical strike chance affects damage per mana. What you're saying is, "Hey look... haste gives you more casts over a period of time in which they could crit... if that one extra spell cast you get crits, you get more damage for that amount of mana you spent!" See, the thing is... it wasn't the haste that truly increased your damage per mana... it was the critical strike of the spell. If you had 0% critical strike rating for spells, your example would fall flat on its face (and it's not a plausible example because of base intellect anyway :P).

    No one is saying haste lowers your damage per mana. Your damage per mana does not change if you have 0 haste rating or 300 haste rating.
    100% (see what I did there) agree. While it's true that a lot of boss fights may not be huge as far as individual instances for the % to come within .000001% of the average, it's still A. More than large enough to bet on and B. What else would you even go by? The odds here are in your favor, it's only logical to bet on your best possible chances. To bank on your least possible chance and hope for a crazy happenstance is pretty much insane.

    After a certain crit % is reached and for the number of chances in a regular boss enounter haste becomes more valuable, although marginally. It's small enough a margin to not really even have to go out of your way to achieve.

  3. #63

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    Haste by itself does not effect dpm in anyway. Crit does obviously, and in a very round about you could make a weak argument that Haste CAN effect DPM in the sense that you are giving yourself extra chances to crit, but even then haste would do nothing for you without the crit rating. Where I have found haste to be more useful is in shorter encounters and high mobility encounters. Crit is great and all but means squat if I can't get the spell off without taking 20k to the face from some AoE effect killing me and effectivly reducing my dps to 0. With shorter encounters as well getting a few more spells in is also great. I may get to cast four times vs one trash mob, where as the 5th cast gets mostly casted but never goes off. Lets say I have a 60% crit rate and no haste since I decided to forego haste for crit. I will, on average crit twice in four casts. It’s more like 2.4 times to be honest. If my average crit hits for 4600 and my non crit for 2000 then my dmg layout would look something like this.

    2.4 crits = 4,600 x 2.4 = 11,040
    1.6 non crit = 2000 x 1.6 = 3,200
    Total = 14,240

    Same example but with 50% crit and 20% haste effectively giving you an extra cast.
    You crit 2.5 out of 5 casts and non crits are 2.5 out of 5.
    2.5 crits = 4600 x 2.5 = 11,500
    2.5 non crits = 2000 x 2.5 = 5000
    Total = 17,000

    Now mind you there are obviously a lot of factors I didn’t include here and the numbers were rounding for ease of calculation but are not altogether unrealistic. Also and this would have a great deal to do with whether or not this is possible, but I don’t know how much easier it is to obtain haste over crit. I do know that haste counts for more per rating point but I don’t know by how much. But even at a straight conversion of 10% haste and 50% crit (you would get 4.44 casts in a 12 second period at a 3 second cast time) it would look like this.

    2.2 crits = 4600 x 2.22 = 10,212
    2.22 non crit = 2000 x 2.22 = 4,440
    total = 14,652

    Still higher than the 60% crit example.

    A few things this example assumes is FFB being cast (3.0 second base cast) over a period of 12 seconds.

  4. #64

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zehlkatur
    I tend to find crit more appealing, because it boosts ur dps almost as mutch as haste. But it also increase ur manareg wich i find is a problem in raids if I don't have a replinishment in my raidgroup. That is if you are using molten armor, with mage armor the manareg is ofcourse no problems, but 3% crit is allways 3%crit.
    Hopefully is you are running a frostfire build you have the molten armor glyph to for the 2% bonus. Imo I dont normally have mana problems on any fight with molten armor up even sometimes without rep unless its Sar with 3D. Crit is nice as the spec revolves round it. But haste will always rain supreme.

  5. #65

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    Ok, thanks for the answers. I'm sorry for the discussion about Rivendare's mount that may or may not drop for sure once in 100 runs. I thought it was clear when saying that "10 out of 100 hits will be crits" that I only was speaking in average.

    Of course, having 1% chance to crit doesn't mean that out of 100 hits, one will be a crit for sure. It is just the amount of hits in average that will be crits. It's of course possible to have no crit in 1000 hits with a 99% crit chance (though quite unlikely : 1/100^1000 chances to happen, but still it can happen - people win at the lotery each day). It is also possible to have 1000 crits in 1000 hits with a 1% crit chance (except if Blizzard has included a mechanism controlling the number of crits in a time interval).

    Quote Originally Posted by Tickspoon
    2) Going from say 50% crit to 51% crit doesn't increase your DPS by 151/150. That would only be true if your crits do double damage. Actually your crit should be doing 330+% damage with frostfire.
    Oh yep, sure, I oversimplified and assumed that a crit doubles the damage done. It depends on the spell or hability, type of damage, and many things. Thanks for the correction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulder
    You don't seem to understand basic math tbh
    Sure

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulder
    The way you explain is only correct if you take your example.
    It's an example. It's made to illustrate the notion I explain, but it's clear enough to be generalized easily.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulder

    But 1% extra crit never means 10% more crit.
    Il you have 10% crit so long, yes, adding 1% means 10% more crits. It is a relative increase.

  6. #66

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malentra


    A point to add here, in live now (3.0.8 ) Living Bomb procs HS as well. Which means LB and overall FFB/LB-HSPyro rotation dps scales slightly more now with Crit Rating.

    Its also a point to always clarify in an assertion whether you are comparing the ratings (where 1 crit rating has to be ~ 50% more dps than 1 haste rating to be more overall dps) or the % value of each stat. These are pretty important clarifications to make, even if (currently) in both cases, crit is generally is better.

    1) Hot Streak Pyroblast is a FFB mages top DPS spell by a huge margin.
    2) Hot Streak proc chance is exponentially (or at least better than linearly) dependent on crit chance.

    Therefore:

    3) Crit is the only stat which increases your DPS exponentially (it may be a linear combination of multiple exponents, but still exponential).

    Conclusion:

    Crit gets better and better the more you have. FrostFire Mages need to get all the crit they can and then chain cast HotStreak Pyroblasts every 3rd cast.

  7. #67

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    Quote Originally Posted by peacemaker
    1) Hot Streak Pyroblast is a FFB mages top DPS spell by a huge margin.
    2) Hot Streak proc chance is exponentially (or at least better than linearly) dependent on crit chance.

    Therefore:

    3) Crit is the only stat which increases your DPS exponentially (it may be a linear combination of multiple exponents, but still exponential).

    Conclusion:

    Crit gets better and better the more you have. FrostFire Mages need to get all the crit they can and then chain cast HotStreak Pyroblasts every 3rd cast.
    Oh and another thing, Haste rating is calculated in the denominator. This means that the more haste you have, the less it will improve your DPS completely independent of your other stats. Haste works against itself to become a progressively less desirable stat the more you have. Crit works with itself due to Hot Streak to become a more desirable stat the more you have.

  8. #68

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    Quote Originally Posted by peacemaker
    3) Crit is the only stat which increases your DPS exponentially (it may be a linear combination of multiple exponents, but still exponential).
    Wrong. At the same spell power, with the same haste on gear, your DPS increases linearly across 1-100% critical strike chance. The thing that¨can be "exponential" is haste at the cost of heavy mana usage.
    100/3=33.33, 100/2.5=40. and 100/2=50.

  9. #69

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    Quote Originally Posted by mgp84
    Wrong. At the same spell power, with the same haste on gear, your DPS increases linearly across 1-100% critical strike chance. The thing that¨can be "exponential" is haste at the cost of heavy mana usage.
    100/3=33.33, 100/2.5=40. and 100/2=50.
    Nope. You are wrong (using your language).

    1) Hot Streak Proc chance increases exponentially with %crit.
    2) Hot Streak Pyroblast is our best DPS spell by a huge margin.
    3) Therefore DPS increased exponentially with %crit.

    Almost everybody forgets to compute the probability of Hot Streak as a function of %crit. It is definitely not linear.

    EDIT: Fine, I'll give some examples.

    10% crit = 1% Hot Streak (0.1 * 0.1)
    20% crit = 4% Hot Streak (0.2 * 0.2)
    30% crit = 9% Hot Streak (0.3 * 0.3)
    40% crit = 16% Hot Streak (0.4 * 0.4)
    50% crit = 25% Hot Streak (0.5 * 0.5)
    60% crit = 36% Hot Streak (0.6 * 0.6)
    70% crit = 49% Hot Streak (0.7 * 0.7)
    etc...

    Now let's compute the differences (increases)
    10% -> 20% = +3%
    20% -> 30% = +5%
    30% -> 40% = +7%
    40% -> 50% = +9%
    50% -> 60% = +11%
    60% -> 70% = +13%

    It's exponential. Nuff said.

  10. #70

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    Quote Originally Posted by peacemaker
    Nope. You are wrong (using your language).

    1) Hot Streak Proc chance increases exponentially with %crit.
    2) Hot Streak Pyroblast is our best DPS spell by a huge margin.
    3) Therefore DPS increased exponentially with %crit.

    Almost everybody forgets to compute the probability of Hot Streak as a function of %crit. It is definitely not linear.

    EDIT: Fine, I'll give some examples.

    10% crit = 1% Hot Streak (0.1 * 0.1)
    20% crit = 4% Hot Streak (0.2 * 0.2)
    30% crit = 9% Hot Streak (0.3 * 0.3)
    40% crit = 16% Hot Streak (0.4 * 0.4)
    50% crit = 25% Hot Streak (0.5 * 0.5)
    60% crit = 36% Hot Streak (0.6 * 0.6)
    70% crit = 49% Hot Streak (0.7 * 0.7)
    etc...

    Now let's compute the differences (increases)
    10% -> 20% = +3%
    20% -> 30% = +5%
    30% -> 40% = +7%
    40% -> 50% = +9%
    50% -> 60% = +11%
    60% -> 70% = +13%

    It's exponential. Nuff said.
    Your point is correct but your math is not. As someone previously pointed out in this very thread, the HS equation is C*C/(1+C). If you plot that in a graph, you will see that
    • More crit will result in an even larger gain in HS chance (what you call exponential growth), albeit to a smaller scale than you report above
    • The growth is actually less than linear but it is much worse in the 0.0-0.3 range

  11. #71

    Re: FFB - crit or haste ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hestedraeber
    Your point is correct but your math is not. As someone previously pointed out in this very thread, the HS equation is C*C/(1+C). If you plot that in a graph, you will see that
    • More crit will result in an even larger gain in HS chance (what you call exponential growth), albeit to a smaller scale than you report above
    • The growth is actually less than linear but it is much worse in the 0.0-0.3 range
    My math is correct, but only reflects the %chance of a HS. It does not compute the %DPS increase. The %chance of HS increases exponentially, but total DPS is a linear combination of HSPyro and other casts and is therefore a linear combination of a linear and expoential DPS increase.

    Therefore your conclusion that the DPS increase is somewhere between linear and exponential is exactly correct.


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