Retribution Major Glyphs - doubts

[ZulukinG]

Greetings,

I have a few doubts and I would be pleased if someone could solve em:

1º - Glyph of Consecration - increases CD and duration of the ability by 2s - Does the damage stay the same or is increased due to longer duration?

2º - My current glyphs are: Judgement, Crusader Strike and Seal of Martyr. Is this the best setup for a pve retribution paladin?

Thanks

[Grisham]

Hi!

1 - Yes it stays the same damage but it saves you many "colliding CD" so it's a glyph you should have
2 - No, drop the Crusader Strike and the Martyr which is currently bugged - I recommend you: Judgement, consecration and the new "free hammer" one

[Lightstrike]

TBH, I think paladin glyphs are all buggered...

There aren't enough useful minor glyphs to fill the spots and there are too many major glyphs that look good at a glance and turn out to be dissapointing.

This is true for all specs.

[Deleted]

The damage is indeed increased for the longer duration - you get two additional ticks of exactly the same value as without the glyph.

The Seal of Blood glyph is worth only half of the Glyph of Spiritual Attunement. Drop it.

Judgement, Consecration and CS Glyph will be fine. The AW Glyph is a DPS loss and the free Hammer Glyph is worth less than the CS Glyph.

Do not listen to everyone, please.

[Fujiama]

The AW Glyph is a DPS loss and the free Hammer Glyph is worth less than the CS Glyph.

Before I start, I might have to say that this comes from a ret paladin who has currently cleared all content except for The Immortal title. People keep failing.

Anyway, 1300 mana saved per minute is indeed nice, but in raid environments there are usually a lot of AoE damage which makes you get mana enough back. On fights like Patchwerk etc, it is indeed true that the CS glyph can be very nice.

At the very moment I use AW glyph as the third glyph, and I can say that I have a nice rotation. When the boss/mob gets to 20% (where you probably have used AW once before in the fight, you save the second one for 20%), I pop AW, use HoW, Judgement, HoW, Divine Storm (which then procs my libram with 63 crit rating), HoW, CS, HoW, Judgement again, HoW, Crusader strike or Consecration, whichever you like, then HoW again. This glyph has then improved your damage a lot, as every HoW crits for (at least for me) around the 5500-6000 area, which normally is a little more damage than CS and DS.

The HoW glyph is nice with the mana save, but at the end of a fight (as said earlier, most fights have AoE so you keep up your mana), you should have a little mana left, which you need to burn to maximize your DPS. Simple as, that glyph is not worth the slot.

My 2 cents.

[xCyniCx]

I am very happy with

Major
Judgement
Consecration
Divinity

Minor
Blessing of Might
Sense Undead (probably drop this one when 3.1 goes live)
Lay on Hands

Divinity and Lay on Hands are actually pretty nice, either for using LoH on yourself for mana issues or on the MT if he drops low (even better if he's paladin).

I don't think the new Hammer of Wrath glyph will be that great... If you're having mana issues, the glyph won't help you. You get more benefit from Divinity and LoH used on yourself in case of running short on mana.

Probably I will test the AW glyph this week, cause I want to push my DPS to the max.

[Fujiama]

Probably I will test the AW glyph this week, cause I want to push my DPS to the max.

Use the rotation I posted. It's really the best :P

[turkeyspit]

I currently have

Major:
Judgement
Crusader Strike
Turn Evil

Minor:
Blessing of Might
Blessing of Wisdom
Sense Undead

Quite frankly, outside of the CS and Judgement Glyphs, and maybe Sense Undead, it really doesn't matter what Glyphs you use, since they all suck in one degree or another.

Turn Evil: Glyph of SoB looked so bad, I took this just out of spite. In retrospect, I've found it quite useful while farming, and a nice form of clutch CC in 5-mans. It isn't by any means a 'good' glyph, but I find it more useful then anything else (up until now) that I could have put in this slot.

Blessing of Might: obvious use is obvious. Saves me reagents =/

Blessing of Wisdom: still bugged btw. It adds 20 mins to the Greater Blessing, which makes it a 50 min Blessing. Might used to work like that but was fixed. I should replace it, but just haven't bothered.

Sense Evil: when I can remember to change my tracking from Minerals to Undead, I get to enjoy an extra 1% damage. Oh goody.

In short, for PvE anyways, the majority of Ret glyphs are an embarrasment. When I look at some of the glyphs available to BM Hunters or DKs, I weep inwardly at the unfairness of it all.

[Indris]

If you're glyphing purely for PvE, Judgement + Consecration + Avenging Wrath is the way to go. You won't have any mana issues even on a fight like Patchwerk once your gear reaches a certain point, before that having a Shaman in your party is usually enough to get by just fine too, and timing your DP / mana pot / maybe LoH properly.

Now to the person that said AW glyph is a dps loss... what are you smoking? It's the second best Ret Pala attack, being able to use it on every 2nd GCD for the duration of AW is amazing.

The problem with CS / SA glyphs is that even if you DO run oom in fights, these glyphs save so little mana you're not very likely to feel much difference, as such I find them pretty pointless.

[Deathleech]

Here is some math for you guys:

A paladin's base mana is 4394 at level 80. 8% of that (cost of Crusader Strike) is 352 mana. 20% off of 352 from the CS glyph is 70 mana. That means CS goes from costing 352 mana to 282 with the glyph. If you are using CS every time it is up thats 10 times a minute, for a grand total of 700 mana saved with the CS glyph every minute.

In comparison Consecrate cost 22% of base mana (which is 4394 as stated earlier). That means it cost 967 mana to cast. In a minute you can get get off 7.5 Consecrates which comes out to cost 7252.5 mana. With the Consecrate glyph you only have to cast 6 Consecrates because of the increased duration, which is 5802 mana. With that glyph you are saving 1405.5 mana, almost double the mana of the CS glyph per minute.

Now lets look at the Glyph of Divinity. If you have the minor glyph of Lay on Hands (which you should) you will be getting back 2340 mana when you Lay on Hands. Without the minor glyph you get back 1950, the glyph gives an extra 20%, or 390 mana. For the sake of argument we will include the minor glyph. So, if you have Glyph of divinity you are getting back an extra 2340 mana back every 20 minutes, or once per boss fight at most.

Crusader Strike Glyph - 700 mana saved per minute
Consecrate Glyph - 1405.5 mana saved per minute
Glyph of Divinity - 2340 mana back per boss fight

Using this simple math we can see if a boss fight lasts at least 2 minutes the Consecrate glyph is by far the best for mana conservation. If the boss fight lasts at least 3.5 minutes than the Crusader Strike glyph also beats out Divinity. The ONLY time the Glyph of Divinity would be worth it is in a boss fight that lasts a minute and a half and even then it's situational (are you downing more bosses than 2 per 20 minutes?) In most cases the CS and Concecrate Glyphs would be far better for mana conservation.

As for some other Glyph choices Hammer of Wrath 12% of a paladins base mana, which is 527 mana. That means you could use 10 Hammer of Wraths a minute which would be a savings of 5270 with the Hammer of Wrath Glyph. Of course this can only be used when a mob is 20% hp or lower, or 1/5 the fight. It is situational. If a mob goes from 20%-0% health in 30 seconds this glyph only saves you 2635 mana. It is also dependant on how long a boss fight lasts prior to the 20% because the longer a boss fight lasts the more useful CS and Consecrate glyps are. You save well over 6k mana from the Concecrate Glyph on a 4 minute boss fight.

The Spiritual Attunement Glyph gives back 2% mana of the amount you are healed for. If you are healed for 10k every 10 seconds this gives you back 200 mana. Ive you are healed for 60k a minute this essentially gives you back 1200 mana a minute. This glyph, of course, is situational like the Hammer of Wrath Glyph. On fights like Patchwerk where you take little to no damane it would be all but worthless, where as Sapphiron where you are constantly getting hit by the frost AoE it is significantly better.

[Indris]

You don't glyph consecrate to save mana, though - you do it to save GCDs for a more smooth rotation. And really, if you're having mana issues once you've got some 25man gear, you're doing something wrong.

[Nimix]

..if you're having mana issues once you've got some 25man gear, you're doing something wrong.

This

I'm using Major: Judgement, Seal of Blood and Seal of command for solo/pvp (i don't botherto change for each event)
Minor Bom, Bow and Sense undead

If i'm even close to go oom (spamming Exo and HW) thank god for devine plague/arcane torrent

[Deathleech]

You don't glyph consecrate to save mana, though - you do it to save GCDs for a more smooth rotation. And really, if you're having mana issues once you've got some 25man gear, you're doing something wrong.

False - it's used for both. If what you are saying were true than every glyph Ret pallies would want to use (other than Glyph of Judgement and AW) would be crap. Glyph of Consecrate/CS/Divinity/SA/HoW/etc. are all glyphs that either save you mana or give you back more mana and do nothing else.

This

I'm using Major: Judgement, Seal of Blood and Seal of command for solo/pvp (i don't botherto change for each event)
Minor Bom, Bow and Sense undead

If i'm even close to go oom (spamming Exo and HW) thank god for devine plague/arcane torrent

Two things. First you are using the Seal of Blood AND Seal of Comman Glyphs? Kinda defeats the purpose to have two glyphs that benfit two different spells, neither of which can be used the same time as the other. Why not use a glyph that helps you all the time, not in certain situations? Not only that the Seal of Blood glyph is utter crap. It gives you back 1% more mana when healed when using Martyr/Blood.. using the Spiritual Attunement Glyph gives back 2% mana and would be a MUCH better choice. In fact twice as good as the Blood/Martry glyph.

[xCyniCx]

Here is some math for you guys: [...]

Your math is not absolutely correct, since ret pallies will always put 5 pts in Benediction. It surely is useful for the comparison of percentages of mana gain though.

I'd say that there are two major glyphs which are essential for ret pallies. Glyph of Judgement on the one hand, Glyph of Consecration on the other. Consecration is way too good not to take it. It smoothens your rotation by avoiding several clashing cooldowns and it helps you save a buttload of mana which was the actual intent for me using it since a ret pallies mana pool is ridiculously low.

The other glyphs available are actually an individual choice.

We can say:

Glyph of Seal of Blood is crap. Either it's going to be changed into something useful or take Glyph of Spiritual Attunement instead, which is - as stated above - twice as good.

Glyph of Seal of Command is useful for PvP, I never use it in PvE. Yeah, you could say: lawl you cannot effort the recoil dmg on some bosses. I say: I can. 'Cause our healers make it possible for me. Talk to them and you will be healed properly if they aren't douchebags. Even on Patchwerk a druid throws a Lifebloom on me from time to time. Works fine.

Glyph of Hammer of Wrath is too situational to pick imo. It saves you some mana in 1/5 of the boss fight.

Glyph of Divinity is also situational but it can be controlled by the player. You are low on mana, mana pot is already used, DP takes a few seconds 'til it's off the cd? Use LoH. A very good choice for all of you saying they have mana issues. I can't understand why, but here's an option for you guys.

Glyph of Avenging Wrath is apparently "just" a dps increase. dps increase is always fine, I like more dps. This is actually the way to go if you have no mana issues at all (which is the case for me). I'm going to replace Divinity with AW and do some testing tomorrow in the 25 raid.

Glyph of Crusader Strike, once a good choice for PvP, now just crap imo. 70 Mana per CS is nothing (and it's actually only 63, since you should have 5 pts in Benediction). Even of you would be able to use CS 10 times a minute - which you actually aren't due to clashing cd's - there are other glyphs that provide you more benefit in case of mana issues.

[gringo]

1 - Yes it stays the same damage but it saves you many "colliding CD" so it's a glyph you should have

I believe that is wrong. The damager per tick remains the same, but you get more ticks. Hence, it is a mana-saving glyph since you have to apply consecration less often.

[Grisham]

1 - Not 100% sure on the Consecrate one - my apologies if I was wrong

2 - you got it wrong - this glyph cannot be compared to other mana-saving as it does nothing till a boss reaches -20% health -> and a this point you should find yourself spamming HoW every 6s (aside when it collides with Judge) - so you're burning through your mana extremely fast - almost 100 mana/sec of additionnal loss - think about it if the final 20% take like 1 min (which means about 5 min total lenght which is reasonable as an estimate) this means you would need nearly 6k MORE mana (pretty much your entire bar) to provide constant HoW spamming.

I don't really have any mana issues, exept Patch10 maybe - but that doesn't mean I can spam endlessly HoW on the final % of a boss - I often must stop and return to a normal routine - and it's a shame since the DPS of HoW is enormous.

Anyway, maybe it's just a matter of personal taste but I will give the HoW a (long) try as it corresponds perfectly to my playstyle which is pushing the final burst on the last % of a boss and always finish oom at the same time.

[Endarius]

While I was going to take the HoW glyph today for some extra mana-goodness, upon hitting raids last night, I've noticed our mana is vastly higher due to the doubling of JOW procs. So honestly, I don't think I'll ever need a mana-saving glyph again (sides consecrate of course).

Feel free to pick up the SoCom glyph instead- hurray for soloing/pvp!