Lock PVP after 3.0.8?

[Ofmanv]

If there was no justification for it then why did blizzard come down so hard on warlocks? And your claims that Warriors/Rogues/Hunters dominated you there is more speculation then anything, any real PvP speced warlock would eat any of those classes for breakfast and still have room for more.


First off to claim the warlocks were not overpowered in BC compared to any other class is being blind, and second of all to claim that other classes such as rogues, or Hunters, Warriors for that matter were better then you is just an outright fabrication. Maybe just as effective but none of them were heads and shoulders above the others.

http://vhairi.blogspot.com

Maybe YOU got your ass kicked by Hunters/Warrior/Rogues but the statistics paint a vary different picture. If you go over all the Data on Vhairi's website you will see at no point in S2-S4 did warlocks ever get dominated by any other class some classes did well against you (Warrior/Rogues). And in fact one of the classes you brought up "Hunters" never were really viable at all in any of the seasons that you were being "eaten". Season 1 is general considered a "throw away" season since there was a number of changes that went in to effect afterward, Burst Damage was a major problem and Win Trading was just horrible in S1-2.

This isn't a discussion about the arena this is about warlock PvP viability in general, some classes do better in BG wile other do better in the Arena. Even Warlocks will tell you that SL/SL was overpowered and made PvP no fun, your obviously not one of them your entitled to your openion but if you are going to claim that Warlocks were not to good you need to bring up evidence to back up your claim.

Blizzard didn't come down on locks... You think sl/sl just disappeared? It somehow got nerfed? If anything soullink is even better because it's an 11 point talent now. By your reasoning warlocks should be even stronger in wotlk!

We still have siphon life and soullink for all their overpoweredness. How do you explain warlock's 1% arena representation despite having such uber overpowered talents?

What about BC anyway? Warlocks had a 10% arena representation in BC, that's below average. The only other class not to be in the top 4 of at least 1 bracket was hunters. Does BC pertain to anything now?

Look at your own link http://vhairi.blogspot.com. Are you looking at the purple bar? Do you see how it's in the middle of the 2v2 graphs and towards the bottom in 3's and 5's? That means average in 2's and below average in 3's in 5's. That's your way overpowered warlocks in BC for you.

Your opinion that locks were overpowered in the past isn't an argument that warlocks should struggle to make up 1% of arenas in wotlk. No class has ever been THAT bad.

[Bakis]

Just to point something out which is badly needed.
You who PLAY(keyword) warlocks and say warlocks are pretty okey in WOTLK PvP, how come you'r all stuck in midbrackets without getting any further?

How can I know that you'r stuck there you might wonder.

Two reasons:
1. If you were that good and the class would in fact be doable to topratings you would have backed up your statements already with profiles.
2. The statistics about warlock representation speak for itself

Now I dont mind a bit that some make their opinion public, it's one of the percs of living in the free world (Hi China).
HOWEVER, if you say warlocks are pretty much okey then you must stop refering to midratings, a nonbroken class WOULD be able to produce more toprated players if it had enough skilled players and I won't for a second think that warlocks somehow got less skilled players than other classes.
That's exactly what you do, cos the ones of you that say warlocks are fine also say that warlocks have less skilled players. How else would you explain the lack of warlocks?

Sometimes it's good to take a step back and get a perspective on things before saying this and that, isn't it.

Cheers

[Iosif]

Blizzard didn't come down on locks... You think sl/sl just disappeared? It somehow got nerfed? If anything soullink is even better because it's an 11 point talent now. By your reasoning warlocks should be even stronger in wotlk!

We still have siphon life and soullink for all their overpoweredness. How do you explain warlock's 1% arena representation despite having such uber overpowered talents?

What about BC anyway? Warlocks had a 10% arena representation in BC, that's below average. The only other class not to be in the top 4 of at least 1 bracket was hunters. Does BC pertain to anything now?

Look at your own link http://vhairi.blogspot.com. Are you looking at the purple bar? Do you see how it's in the middle of the 2v2 graphs and towards the bottom in 3's and 5's? That means average in 2's and below average in 3's in 5's. That's your way overpowered warlocks in BC for you.

Your opinion that locks were overpowered in the past isn't an argument that warlocks should struggle to make up 1% of arenas in wotlk. No class has ever been THAT bad.

And before you look at a single graph you should look at the 2 years worth of data there that also includes the TR Realm. And yes some classes did have it "THAT BAD" Hunters didn't receive 10+ pvp oriented buffs because they were fine in the arenas. And just recently received 2 more in the latest patch.

http://www.warcraftrealms.com/census...ervertypeid=-1

Also bear in mind that Warlocks took the largest hit in population dropping to 7% of the overall population making it the lowest population class in the game.

If you also look warlocks may have been middle of the field (Average Representation) but they made it all way to 2400+ in ALL Brackets every season. Were some classes in some seasons never made it past 1900+ legitimately.

HOWEVER, if you say warlocks are pretty much okey then you must stop refering to midratings, a nonbroken class WOULD be able to produce more toprated players if it had enough skilled players and I won't for a second think that warlocks somehow got less skilled players than other classes.
That's exactly what you do, cos the ones of you that say warlocks are fine also say that warlocks have less skilled players. How else would you explain the lack of warlocks?

Sometimes it's good to take a step back and get a perspective on things before saying this and that, isn't it.

Cheers

As i pointed out... Low population... Low Population = Low repsentation, is your repsentation disportionaly low? How many warlocks actively do arena and whats their repsentation in the look like? A Quick search of the fist Battle group i ran across looked like this.

There are warlocks making it to the top of the food chain, despite the massive numbers of DK and Pals in their way.

2v2 Team in Bloodlust Battle group currently #48 with a active Warlock
http://www.wowarmory.com/team-info.x...r+Rerolls&fl=1

3v3 Team in Bloodlust Battle group currently #1 with a active Warlock
http://www.wowarmory.com/team-info.x...+and+wdzz&fl=1

5v5 Team in Bloodlust Battle group currently #5 with an active Warlock
http://www.wowarmory.com/team-info.x...a+Hammock&fl=1



I never said that warlocks were fine in Wrath in fact I have agreed with the main point that warlocks need a little help. But I have also pointed out that some of the complaints and problems are self inflicted.

Till some of the issues with Burst and survivability get corrected across the board you cant really claim to be broken. The only classes that are doing well ATM have some kind of shield/invulnerability ability.

[Ofmanv]

And before you look at a single graph you should look at the 2 years worth of data there that also includes the TR Realm. And yes some classes did have it "THAT BAD" Hunters didn't receive 10+ pvp oriented buffs because they were fine in the arenas. And just recently received 2 more in the latest patch.

http://www.warcraftrealms.com/census...ervertypeid=-1

Also bear in mind that Warlocks took the largest hit in population dropping to 7% of the overall population making it the lowest population class in the game.

If you also look warlocks may have been middle of the field (Average Representation) but they made it all way to 2400+ in ALL Brackets every season. Were some classes in some seasons never made it past 1900+ legitimately.

As i pointed out... Low population... Low Population = Low repsentation, is your repsentation disportionaly low? How many warlocks actively do arena and whats their repsentation in the look like? A Quick search of the fist Battle group i ran across looked like this.

There are warlocks making it to the top of the food chain, despite the massive numbers of DK and Pals in their way.

2v2 Team in Bloodlust Battle group currently #48 with a active Warlock
http://www.wowarmory.com/team-info.x...r+Rerolls&fl=1

3v3 Team in Bloodlust Battle group currently #1 with a active Warlock
http://www.wowarmory.com/team-info.x...+and+wdzz&fl=1

5v5 Team in Bloodlust Battle group currently #5 with an active Warlock
http://www.wowarmory.com/team-info.x...a+Hammock&fl=1



I never said that warlocks were fine in Wrath in fact I have agreed with the main point that warlocks need a little help. But I have also pointed out that some of the complaints and problems are self inflicted.

Till some of the issues with Burst and survivability get corrected across the board you cant really claim to be broken. The only classes that are doing well ATM have some kind of shield/invulnerability ability.

You're dismissing a 1% arena representation because warlocks only make up 7%? First of all that's 1/7th suitable representation even by your reasoning. I repeat, no other class has ever had a representation nearly as low as 1%, not even hunters.

Second, why do you THINK warlocks are the least played class in arenas? Maybe because people deciding on their class to take to 80 and do arenas said gee warlocks suck in pvp I'll roll something else. The fact that warlocks are now the least played class only reinforces how weak the class is.

How does linking a single warlock team prove anything? 11 million people play WoW and the best warlock you can find in 2's is 48th in the battlegroup? That's your idea of evidence? Given that one warlock that got to 48th in the battlegroup there are easily hundreds of paladins above that.

[Iosif]

There are a lot of players that simply do not participate in PvP let alone the Arenas, we have 3 Warlocks in my guild none of them are in Arena teams and only 1 of them plays in Battle Grounds. Generality that like you feel useless/broken in PvP and are just unhappy overall wih the class direction something that I agree should be fixed to some degree.

My point of linking teams was to point out that some warlocks were making it to the top in the arena system, means its possible in the current form. (This by no means that arenas or Warlocks are ok in PvP)

Please post this 1% presentation link please because every arena stat site i have seen have you around 2% for the 2200+ in all bracket except 5v5 witch always was the warlocks weakest bracket.

There is a real possibility that warlock representation in the arena system may have little to do with class power as it may have to do with low population and the discontent with pvp in general. With out knowing how many warlocks are in the system and what kind of ranking they are obtaining its hard to tell and mostly speculation. When people get unhappy with PvP some of people will feel that their class is "broken", "under powered" and "under represented". In many cases they will see the numbers the best support their arguments and discount anything that doesn't coincide with their believe with the excuse "thats an exception" or blame other classes for making them unhappy.

On the same note Shamans seem to be having a low representation in the arena system, does that mean they are "broken" or just not happy with PvP in general?

Also Rogues/Paladins/Death Knights have a disproportionately high representation in the arena system. This is in part do to the immunity/damage reduction effect giving them vary high survivability. This again reinforces the problem with burst damage in the arenas that effect all classes.

[Ofmanv]

There are a lot of players that simply do not participate in PvP let alone the Arenas, we have 3 Warlocks in my guild none of them are in Arena teams and only 1 of them plays in Battle Grounds. Generality that like you feel useless/broken in PvP and are just unhappy overall wih the class direction something that I agree should be fixed to some degree.

My point of linking teams was to point out that some warlocks were making it to the top in the arena system, means its possible in the current form. (This by no means that arenas or Warlocks are ok in PvP)

Please post this 1% presentation link please because every arena stat site i have seen have you around 2% for the 2200+ in all bracket except 5v5 witch always was the warlocks weakest bracket.

There is a real possibility that warlock representation in the arena system may have little to do with class power as it may have to do with low population and the discontent with pvp in general. With out knowing how many warlocks are in the system and what kind of ranking they are obtaining its hard to tell and mostly speculation. When people get unhappy with PvP some of people will feel that their class is "broken", "under powered" and "under represented". In many cases they will see the numbers the best support their arguments and discount anything that doesn't coincide with their believe with the excuse "thats an exception" or blame other classes for making them unhappy.

On the same note Shamans seem to be having a low representation in the arena system, does that mean they are "broken" or just not happy with PvP in general?

Also Rogues/Paladins/Death Knights have a disproportionately high representation in the arena system. This is in part do to the immunity/damage reduction effect giving them vary high survivability. This again reinforces the problem with burst damage in the arenas that effect all classes.

I'm sorry to be rash but this is the stupid discussion I've ever had. "Your represenation isn't 1%, it's 2%!" Oh, what was I thinking?! Warlocks aren't broken at all!

You dismiss warlock representation saying few people play the class or the one's that do are discouraged from doing arenas. DUH! Follow this train of thought: Weak class, don't want to play it, don't want to arena with it. Now it all makes sense!

I mean c'mon duh rogues/paladins/dk's have a high representation. When you're talking class representation the whole point is you're comparing it to the other classes. When there's hardly any warlocks in arenas, what happens to the other classe's representation? It goes up! Circular arguments ftw!

Shamans may have a low arena representation but it sure as hell isn't 1%. I won't argue that don't deserve some improvement. They're just not in the same boat as warlocks.

If you think I'm "manipulating" the arena statistics please show me anything that doesn't show how grossly underrepresented locks are.

The best you can say about warlocks is they have a 2% arena representation. If you think that's "fine" then you're not worth anyone's time. You just play some other class and you're savoring your facerolling ezmode for as long as it lasts.

[HavocLock]

If you aren't a warlock or discussing fighting a warlock since 3.0.8 - please stop posting useless information in this thread.

And no, Blizz didn't come down hard on locks... we were overlooked. There weren't major nerfs.. most likely it was assumed we would scale just fine with other classes, which Blizz has now admitted that they were wrong and need to re-work some things. We are waiting on that. This thread is to compare the progress of our class in pvp as these fixes take place.

And please.. for the love of god stop comparing prior seasons and get your panties out of a wad that some lock way back when had his way with you and then planted the Flag of Ownership in your corpse. And comparing 1v1 is pretty retarded.. even Blizz ignores 1v1 combat - admittedly.

Now, back on topic...

[Xaximbo]

As a destro warlock (20/51) i'm a beast in bgs and world pvp, i win almost everybody, i have even won retardins (awesome name) and unholy dks with 2000+ rating.

In arenas i'm still getting stomped in a few seconds specially in orgrimmar arena, today a ret and an arcane mage killed me while i was planting my circle, even using trinket on hoj it was a lost battle

[studski]

I believe this is the 1% representation most people refer to:

http://www.sk-gaming.com/arena/player/

No discrepancy in population size can account for that kind of difference in representation at the top.

Keeping with the statistics train, 0% of the top players in the world at this point disagree that Warlocks are underpowered to the point of irrelevance. No other class has ever reached the point of being a detriment to the team in the way that Warlocks have become now. What I mean by that, is that given any team setup, in any bracket, you always benefit more from bringing X dps over a Warlock.

[EfromEchoisle]

This is my first Post here. I read this forum all the time and some times I'm surprised at how crazy people get about the Warlock PVP issues.

Ill say this Just as a back ground. Iv been playing WoW for about 3 years and would say I have a good grasp on the game. I have a lvl 70 Alliance Warlock I played as my main before BC and Full T6ed him. I also now have a lvl 80 Orc Warlock I changed to as my main that I currently play. I changed faction to Raid with RL friends and we have cleared all the content to include 3D.

I love Warlock and Iv played several other classes (lvl72 Shaman LVL 70 Warrior) when it comes down to it Warlock is my favorite class. I enjoy every aspect of the class all 3 talent trees and every little gadget that Blizzard has given us.

However, I currently do not PVP. I spent a huge amount of time PVPing on my First Warlock and just like everyone says in the beginning of the Burning Crusade Warlock were OP. There was a point where Warlock would try and kill classes without using fear because one fear meant the Warlock would win. That just wasn't fair to anyone. Then on top of that, Blizzard added Resilience and the Warlock was just about unbeatable. All you ever saw on the Warlock forum was Nerf Warlock and Nerf Fear.

In my eyes The problems started when Blizzard made DoTs affected by Resilience. When you take that into consideration with the multiple fear breaks and the over all weakness of the Warlock pets. Every aspect of the Warlocks Game was Nerfed. Your DoTs are nerfed, your Pets got 2-3 shotted, and your Direct damage is all max cast time along with Resilience Crit Nerf.

I see a lot of hey.. If you have a problem with X class then don't fight them. We all know this makes no sense. The next time your in the arena try and choose to not fight the class your weakest against and see how that works out for ya.

In the end I was very frustrated with PVP and not because I wanted to just win every fight. I enjoyed Warlock PVP because I felt like I had a fair shake against every Class. I don't mind being beat by any class and I enjoy fighting against good players that in the end just edge you out. If the edge he gains is due to his class or skill doesn't matter.

Unfortunately Warlock PVP has turned into I'm stunned.....I'm dead and I never even got to move. Or I'm charged and I'm 3 shotted. Or I cant believe I just got nuked down in 3 seconds by X class. Its just not fun any more. Running from the Grave yard isn't what I call fun. Getting capped in 2.5 seconds in the arena isn't fun. Feeling like your the class that is failing your arena team isn't fun... At this point there are classes as a Warlock in an arena, you just cant kill. Its tough times and I do think some changes need to be made. Do I want fear changed? No I don't! At no time should you be able to kill a player while they run around and get to do nothing but die. But this should be true of every class and Player. Blizzard needs to take into consideration that we all PVP to actual PVP! not stand in one spot and die or run in a circle and die or jump into the arena and POW! you Die!

I do think some Fixes are coming. Blizzard has done a great job at changing some horrible specs and classes in the game so far. Look at Ret-pallys, Disc-Priest, and Shaman-PVP things are looking up unfortunately I think Warlocks were at the bottom of the list slumming around and getting Hammered drunk with our shadow Priest buddies. Come on blizz its time to take us to re-hab this alcohol patch thing just isn't working!

Untill then, Im just not PVPing. Im saveing my 25 man badges in hopes of buying some PVP gear when we have a fair shake.


E.

[HavocLock]

^Great post - an I agree wholeheartedly. The reduction of usefulness of locks since the xpac is what got me started on these forums as well.

It is a bit absurd that there are so many ways out of fear yet not an equal amount of ways out of stun and silence. When you couple that with the crazy burst damage in the game, we are left struggling. I dont have problems with the fear nerfs over the years nor the fact that most of our stuff can be resisted by mages and priests so long as other combat aspects account for it.

I'm with you - if I get bested by another class because they were better or simply had their rotation or game plan more organized, so be it. I love competition and I think that's why I enjoy(ed) pvp so much. At the end of BC, we were in a decent place balance wise. Unfortunately some other classes werent and Blizz has worked on them. But since the xpac we were left in the dust and it seems that changes are in the works - some might be very exciting.

I hate that my lock is pretty much a raid whore now - dont get me wrong I enjoy PVE.. but once stuff is on farm its redundant.. I never had to worry about that in pvp. I still hit the battlegrounds on weekends but not nearly as much as I used to and I dont arena at all now. I'm looking forward to the next changes and maybe being able to enjoy the other major facet of the game... the one that always brings a new challenge.

[Vidara]

As a destro warlock (20/51) i'm a beast in bgs and world pvp, i win almost everybody, i have even won retardins (awesome name) and unholy dks with 2000+ rating.

In arenas i'm still getting stomped in a few seconds specially in orgrimmar arena, today a ret and an arcane mage killed me while i was planting my circle, even using trinket on hoj it was a lost battle

So you are slapping 2k rated palas and DKs around, but you have yet to figure out that your puppy can dispel HoJ? Sounds credible to me.

Each specc has it advantage vs. certain classes, I find that in 1v1 Affliction is the most potent one of them as you dont have to stand still casting for more than a few seconds to do immense amounts of dmg. That topped with CoEx and Imp. HoT makes it really viable for 2s as well.

Once you get a decent amount of resilience (im at 850 atm) its actually not THAT bad after the pet buff. It can take a bit of heat through SL, no more critchains and if you make use of your pet abilities instead of autocasting, you actually still have a bit of utility.

Obviously adding SL as baseline and just make it dmg reduc rather than transfer to pet, would help A LOT. But at least I can feel it getting better. Still need quite a bit of tweaking at the top of destro and demo however.

[Darklordace]

I think we got buffed in some sort of way, i managed to get Wrecking Ball as affli

[Logic]

Tbh, I'm tired of hearing warlocks were OP in tbc, not they are not. Get used to it etc comments.

I pay for this game, which means I want to have fun when I play this game. I want to be able to play warlock and have fun, and be on the same level as other classes. NOT be forced to do level another charch to play PVP.
I don't want to smash my mouse, every time I step into arena.

Blizzard fix this. I pay for it, and it needs to be fixed. Its a service I pay for.

2.3 k rated warlock in s4, just to point out that I have played pvp on a decent level.

[Warthor]

Well thing about hunters is now almost 90% of them are MM and SV witch hits a lot harder in the terms of "Burst damage" then BM ever did.. Sure we were immune to fear as BM but it only takes me about a few seconds to clip 10-15k damage as MM/SV then i get feared wait 4 seconds break fear with trinkets then finish you off with another hail of arrows.

Another thing to keep in Mind that a lot of the SV/MM builds pick up Aimed Shot were NONE of the popular BM specs had Aimed Shot, witch nerfs the hell out of all your healing abilities.

Remember the Old adage? "Watch what you wish for you might just get it."
Warlocks and other classes QQ'ed about BM Spec and Bestial Wrath being immune to CC and they nerfed it, funny thing is they over all made hunters deadlier in PvP and now you got something new to QQ about. You should have left BM alone it was a gimp PvP spec but a high end PvE spec. Well live and learn right ?


As for DK's they no idea...

lol...BM was and still is retarded, the ppl who thought in giving hunters that back in TBC should have been fired

[shono99]

Why not use the PVP spec most people stray from? Of course Destruction is going to get owned compared to Demonology.

Demonic Resilience gives you an extra 248 resilience worth of anti crit, very helpful in PVP.

Felguard as well as Metamorphosis(as long as you're not against a lock or Paladin) is a lot of extra utility, more survivability. Ever get someone stuck in a double hellfire for 2300/second? GG.

[Bakis]

FG suck, fudgemidget cant charge unless 32482348234823 yards away wich is funny cos when you finally wanne charge something its never within range. Hate that asshat pet, instant succu ftw 8)

[GladRogue]

Another thing to keep in Mind that a lot of the SV/MM builds pick up Aimed Shot were NONE of the popular BM specs had Aimed Shot, witch nerfs the hell out of all your healing abilities.

You're not serious about this right? Maybe all u saw were the dumbass huntards who specced 71/0/0, but actually 50/21/0 or something close (47/21/3 sometimes) was actually more THE spec for BM hunters. And yes it did include Aimed.

[Iosif]

You're not serious about this right? Maybe all u saw were the dumbass huntards who specced 71/0/0, but actually 50/21/0 or something close (47/21/3 sometimes) was actually more THE spec for BM hunters. And yes it did include Aimed.

Most PvE BM Hunters did not pick up Aimed shot. At least none that were serious about Maxing out DPS output. Keep in mind that Aimed shot is NOT a PvE talent anymore, Steady Shot out preforms it in every way. I was talking about PvE hunters, any PvP hunter is going to pick up Aimed Shot. But really BM was not that great of a PvP spec to much of the damage is mitigated by armor and resiliency a small resiliency goes along way against a BM hunter. Many stupid hunters may have picked it up not caring that Aimed Shot had no real PvE usefulness. But if your getting face-rolled by one of them you really need to consider joining the flocks of idiots that rolled death knights.