Soulfires during backdraft

[Ofmanv]

Whoever asked the OP what his spec is is the retarded one. Read the thread title "Soulfire's during backdraft"

[Offsprngr]

Isn't there hybrid conflag spec without chaos bolt?

[Metaslave]

personally:
If backdraft and bloodlust : soulfire
if backdraft no bloodlust : incinerate

that's what I try to do as well. shame about the shard usage tho

[Deleted]

Well the thing is that i got 4/5 t7.5 and stuff like that and the guild is planning to down sarth 3 drakes soon enough so i need every dps increase available It would be awesome to get some help from on of the Pr0 locks OFF Topic, Do i need to change my rotation anything?

CoA, Corr, Immo, CB,Conflag, incinerate until i need to refresh.
I pop Conflag as soon as it is available.
Glyphs are CoA, Immo, Conflag.

Thanks for all the replies btw

[Metaslave]

drop the CoA glyph for an imp one.
make a macro for the imp to attack and follow you, and keep it on passive. makes it easier to control it during flame waves.
your rotation is fine, tho I skip corruption most of the time but so far I haven't seen any proof that including or not including it is a dps drop or gain.

[zuxia]

Using soulfire under any condition is a loss atm. This has been tested over and over again.

References: Elitistjerks.com and Wowhead.com

[Shamb]

Claiming that Soul Fire is better dps is claiming that slow spells benefit more from haste than faster ones which is false. 1% haste is 1% increase in DPS regardless of cast time. Soulfire is not better dps than Incinerate just because you're adding 30% haste.

You are right and wrong at the same time.
Yes slow spell doesn't benefit more from haste. BUT there IS a hard cap to gcd.
So when backdraft procs and you have heroism/bloodlust, if your incinerate cast time goes UNDER 1 second, it doesn't benefit fully from the haste you have, because you still have to wait for gcd before casting something else.

So in that specific case, soulfire beats it. Again that is IF incinerate cast time goes under 1sec (which might be the case with good gear and heroism+backdraft procs)

[Gerian]

You are right and wrong at the same time.
Yes slow spell doesn't benefit more from haste. BUT there IS a hard cap to gcd.
So when backdraft procs and you have heroism/bloodlust, if your incinerate cast time goes UNDER 1 second, it doesn't benefit fully from the haste you have, because you still have to wait for gcd before casting something else.

So in that specific case, soulfire beats it. Again that is IF incinerate cast time goes under 1sec (which might be the case with good gear and heroism+backdraft procs)

You can't get Incinerate below 1 second. Taking a 2.25 second cast to 1 second would require 125% haste, good luck with that. The only spell you would have to worry about is Immolate and possibly Chaos Bolt at ridiculously high levels of gear haste.

[Urgganzish]

I respectfully disagree with anyone who says Soulfire during bloodlust and backdraft is a dps loss. currently im at 2827 spldmg buffed (flask + shaman totem), last night pulled 5750 on patchwerk and all i did during bloodlust was pop soulfires now i did get lucky with Embrace of the spider popping with 3% from boomkin, 5% from totem, 500 haste from spider my soulfires were down to 1.45secs and critting at 17k-22k.

On thaddius and loatheb i pulled over 7.5k with my highest thaddius soulfire at 45k (this was with Dying curse bloodfury and destro pot during bloodlust), so no with enough haste soulfire is massive dps.

[Gerian]

I respectfully disagree with anyone who says Soulfire during bloodlust and backdraft is a dps loss. currently im at 2827 spldmg buffed (flask + shaman totem), last night pulled 5750 on patchwerk and all i did during bloodlust was pop soulfires now i did get lucky with Embrace of the spider popping with 3% from boomkin, 5% from totem, 500 haste from spider my soulfires were down to 1.45secs and critting at 17k-22k.

RNG does not support your argument, sorry.

|EDIT| And your soul fires were definately not at 1.45 seconds. You would need 3800 haste rating with Backdraft and Heroism to reach 1.45 seconds on a 4 second cast...

4 sec / (1+((3800/32.79) + 30 + 30)/100) = 1.449 seconds.

[Urgganzish]

Uh yes it was you forgot to add potion of speed and spellstone, anyhow your argument is just as assinine, by your argument since its dependant on RNG it shouldnt be used, incinerate crits are also dependant on RNG this doesnt make sense.

Soulfires hit for 7k non crit, even with a 1.8 seconds cast thats better than chaosbolt which has a cooldown or an incinerate which at most is 4k. (only problem i shard cost which ia doable)

Soulfires crit for at least 12k-13k, chaos bolt crits the same incinerate crits are 10kish for me. Soulfire is more DPS,

Another example on kel i was at 5 in dps before add phase, when adds popped out and bloodlust popped same circumstance with embrace of spider, speed pot and raid haste etc, i went from 5 to 1 and our aff lock is just as geared as i am. guess what i popped during BL, SOULFIRES!, out of the 12 fires i popped... 9 crit for over 14k.

So before you throw yourself to theorycrafting and simulcraft, a practically application is quite neccessary since Simulcraft does NOT account for RNG.

[Gerian]

Uh yes it was you forgot to add potion of speed and spellstone, anyhow your argument is just as assinine, by your argument since its dependant on RNG it shouldnt be used, incinerate crits are also dependant on RNG this doesnt make sense.

Soulfires hit for 7k non crit, even with a 1.8 seconds cast thats better than chaosbolt which has a cooldown or an incinerate which at most is 4k. (only problem i shard cost which ia doable)

Soulfires crit for at least 12k-13k, chaos bolt crits the same incinerate crits are 10kish for me. Soulfire is more DPS,

Another example on kel i was at 5 in dps before add phase, when adds popped out and bloodlust popped same circumstance with embrace of spider, speed pot and raid haste etc, i went from 5 to 1 and our aff lock is just as geared as i am. guess what i popped during BL, SOULFIRES!, out of the 12 fires i popped... 9 crit for over 14k.

So before you throw yourself to theorycrafting and simulcraft, a practically application is quite neccessary since Simulcraft does NOT account for RNG.

You're one to call my argument asinine when you're claiming Soul Fire and Chaos Bolt crit nearly the same and despite one being a faster cast speed you THINK its better dps to use the slower. Seriously, you can argue that Soul Fire is better til you're blue in the face. Who cares what you crit for? Do you not have even the slightest clue as to how DPS works? I'll give you a big hint: its the "per second" part not the "damage" part.

As far as you claiming your Soul Fire crits are better:
13,000 damage @ 1.8 second cast = 7222.2 DPS

1.8 second Soul Fire would be 122% haste making Incinerate roughly 1.02 second cast

10,000 damage @ 1.02 second cast = 9803.9 DPS

Yup, you're still wrong.

[Urgganzish]

heh so basically one has 1900 base damage and the other at approx 1k base dmg, granted incinerates are faster but are entirely dependant on MC + Dying curse to crit higher than 10k or approx 10k.

Whereas im garunteed at least a 14k crit with soulfire base without dying curse, and it will LOTS higher with dying curse. SO yes when RNG happens and we know it will happen, soulfire will be more DPS simply from crits sorry dude realworld application completely override math here.

If youre going to throw math at me why dont you factor in Probability / Random number generation...guess what you cant, which is why i dont really give a Rats behind about pure math numbers youre quoting here simply because no matter what the reality of the situation you will not factor in any sort of RNG.

go learn calculus again.


Edit : Just armoried you lol im not even gonna argue anymore youre sitting at 15% crit, i have a LOT more pure stats than you, not trying to make you look bad but i outgear you significantly , i can stack at least 10% more crit than you by switching two peices of gear. get more gear you will be using soulfires.

[Gerian]

heh so basically one has 1900 base damage and the other at approx 1k base dmg, granted incinerates are faster but are entirely dependant on MC + Dying curse to crit higher than 10k or approx 10k.

Incinerate is better DAMAGE PER SECOND

Whereas im garunteed at least a 14k crit with soulfire base without dying curse, and it will LOTS higher with dying curse. SO yes when RNG happens and we know it will happen, soulfire will be more DPS simply from crits sorry dude realworld application completely override math here.

Incinerate has the same crit chance as Soul Fire, and crits are ALWAYS 200% of the damage...if Spell A > Spell B in DPS, Crit A > Crit B in DPS.

If youre going to throw math at me why dont you factor in Probability / Random number generation...guess what you cant, which is why i dont really give a Rats behind about pure math numbers youre quoting here simply because no matter what the reality of the situation you will not factor in any sort of RNG.

See Above

go learn calculus again.

Its not calculus, its basic math.

Edit : Just armoried you lol im not even gonna argue anymore youre sitting at 15% crit, i have a LOT more pure stats than you, not trying to make you look bad but i outgear you significantly , i can stack at least 10% more crit than you by switching two peices of gear. get more gear you will be using soulfires.

Wow, you want a cookie? You have 5% more crit than me. I am also over itemized for hit at the moment (replacing pieces still), have 200 more haste than you, and only a tad less spellpower than you. If you want to argue gear and knew anything about how each stat affects your dps you would stop while you're ahead. 10% more crit by switching two pieces? Oh please tell me where you got these magical items that have 250 crit rating on them each! -.-

And you're gemming crit/spellpower...lols

[Urgganzish]

You dont have 200 more haste than me you have 60 more haste, thats around 1% more haste lol. anyhow not going to argue anymore your concepts of RNG is broken. moving away for pointless discussion. have fun raiding.

[bobbysmith56]

I would like to point out that the cast time reduction of Incinerate from haste rating/haste % buffs is applied before Emberstorm(well, it was in TBC, I havent bothered to check if that was changed).
So calculate your haste rating first and then remove the .25 seconds, instead of assuming 2.25 base cast speed.
AFAIK the same thing happens with Soul Fire and Bane, so assume 6 seconds base, factor in haste, then remove 2 seconds. Makes the "crazy" cast speeds easier to obtain.

In case someone thinks this wouldn't change the end result, I urge you to check your math


Again, it could have been changed since TBC.

[Gerian]

I would like to point out that the cast time reduction of Incinerate from haste rating/haste % buffs is applied before Emberstorm(well, it was in TBC, I havent bothered to check if that was changed).
So calculate your haste rating first and then remove the .25 seconds, instead of assuming 2.25 base cast speed.
AFAIK the same thing happens with Soul Fire and Bane, so assume 6 seconds base, factor in haste, then remove 2 seconds. Makes the "crazy" cast speeds easier to obtain.

In case someone thinks this wouldn't change the end result, I urge you to check your math


Again, it could have been changed since TBC.

Using post-talent cast speeds I get congruency between my calculations and in-game.

Side note: I'm wearing the wrong gear on my armory page =/

[rodobson]

Casting soulfire during backdraft is viable, but the DPS gain is pretty marginal. The main reason you would want to cast soulfire in place of incinerate is mana consumption.

Blizz has stated that they are going to make us care about mana again, and I know everyone thinks that being a lock gets you infinite mana, and it does, but it also taxes healers and significantly cuts into your DPS. Improved soul leach is also a fantastic talent for those who have not actually analyzed its returns, and given Blizzs direction on mana concerns will only grow in value.

I imagine that in the next patch Fire and Brimstone will be changed to have some impact on soulfire, and a glyph for soulfire will be created that removes the shard cost. Soulfire is on Blizz's list of things to change for us, and it ties directly into mana control and how we use shards.

In the mean time, if you have shards to burn and heroism/ bloodlust is rolling, feel free to cast soulfire without worrying about losing dps. Your mana pool will be happy, your shard bag will not.

[Metaslave]

You can't get Incinerate below 1 second. Taking a 2.25 second cast to 1 second would require 125% haste, good luck with that. The only spell you would have to worry about is Immolate and possibly Chaos Bolt at ridiculously high levels of gear haste.

with heroism, wrath of air totem and backdraft my incinerates go below 1 second. add a potion of speed to that and it would probably be around 0.6-7 seconds. that is why we use soulfire.

[nocturnus]

And you're gemming crit/spellpower...lols

I'd stop posting now Urgganzish. You're making a fool out of yourself. You're too emotional and cant elaborate your fantastical assumptions.

Guys, the calculations have been made and published over and over. Incinerate dpct is higher than that of Soulfire. Therefore Soulfire is useless in it's current state.