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  1. #21

    Re: Hit...or best in slot...what to choose.

    Quote Originally Posted by heriana
    With this build, you would be at 276 hit, 23 under cap. 24 if you use shadowpriest.com's incorrect hit cap:
    http://www.shadowpriest.com/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=16992
    You are forgetting the Icewalker enchant, which brings you to 288, only 1 point under the hit cap of 289.

  2. #22

    Re: Hit...or best in slot...what to choose.

    If "best in slot" items depend on your gear setup; ie. they take into account your hit, expertise or defense, then there are no definite "best in slot" items.

    There are simply items that happen to be the best for your gear setup at a given time.

    Therefore no item can be called "best in slot", without knowing which gear setup it belongs to.

    They should be called "best item belonging to a specific gear setup" or "best in slot with this specific gear setup" not simply "best in slot".

  3. #23

    Re: Hit...or best in slot...what to choose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka
    No they don't... you are calculating PP from Hit which changes to 0 once you are hit capped.
    No. I used white PP values.

    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka
    swapping the Accursed Spine for the Surplus Limb would mean I gain 2 of the hit PP on the surplus limb 97.61 + 2*1.12 = 99.85 which is below 106.9... therefore the Accursed Spine is the better option.
    You are also taking the Gemmed wand over the Plague Igniter which your not factoring into your math. Go read my post again and clearly see what happened.

    Your saying Accursed Spine at 106.9 is 9.29 PP MORE than Surplus Limb at 97.61. Correct. Now remember the wands. Your Gemmed Wand at 54.82 is 5.66 LESS than the Plague Igniter at 60.48. OK. So, your +9.29 you got taking the accursed spine minus the 5.66 you lost over taking the gemmed wand equals 3.63. SOOOO you are 3.63 higher PP but you are 2 less under the hit cap by not swapping the two items. I won't say it again. I don't understand what your trying to convince me on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka
    you are pushing shit up hill to convince me that missing one in every 1312 casts is going to cause a wipe.
    We're both splitting hairs so that's obviously not what I'm trying to do.

  4. #24

    Re: Hit...or best in slot...what to choose.

    Quote Originally Posted by K21Nova
    There are simply items that happen to be the best for your gear setup at a given time.

    Therefore no item can be called "best in slot", without knowing which gear setup it belongs to.
    That may be the case for some items but not all of them. Hood of Rationality is clearly the best head piece a Shadow Priest can get hands down. There are no other helms with hit rating that even comes close. It's safe to say that Hood of Rationality is Best In Slot. This can't be said for many items though, your right.

  5. #25

    Re: Hit...or best in slot...what to choose.

    Quote Originally Posted by ubermonkey
    No. I used white PP values.
    You are also taking the Gemmed wand over the Plague Igniter which your not factoring into your math. Go read my post again and clearly see what happened.

    Your saying Accursed Spine at 106.9 is 9.29 PP MORE than Surplus Limb at 97.61. Correct. Now remember the wands. Your Gemmed Wand at 54.82 is 5.66 LESS than the Plague Igniter at 60.48. OK. So, your +9.29 you got taking the accursed spine minus the 5.66 you lost over taking the gemmed wand equals 3.63. SOOOO you are 3.63 higher PP but you are 2 less under the hit cap by not swapping the two items. I won't say it again. I don't understand what your trying to convince me on.
    We're both splitting hairs so that's obviously not what I'm trying to do.

    I found out why my math is now wrong, they have re-evaluated the PP for all the stats, for example my spreadsheet was run when hit was worth 1.12 PP, it is now worth 1.16 PP, so I will have to rerun my spreadsheet.

  6. #26

    Re: Hit...or best in slot...what to choose.

    Again from the best gear thread at shadowpriest.com

    All the specific gear calculations are slightly incorrect because haste is being calculated as 0.61 instead of 0.62 per the start information quoted below.

    The following numbers are the actual PP values:

    * 1 spellpower = 1 PP
    * 1 intellect = 0.2 PP
    * 1 spirit = 0.22 PP
    * 1 spellcrit = 0.62 PP
    * 1 spellhaste = 0.62 PP
    * 1 spellhit = 1.16 PP (when not hitcapped)

    For your example you argue that Utilising the Surplus Limb & Plague Igniter is > PP than the Accursed Spine & Gemmed Wand of the Nerubians. I totally agree it's splitting hairs but I want to show why my setup is technically better per the PP values.

    Firstly your setup will put you 12 hit over the cap once you take into account you will be using the Icewalker enchant on your boots. At this stage there is no possible other enchant you could use that would be better than the 12 crit offered by this enchant, so therefore you can't reduce your hit by choosing another enchant or if you do you lose out on 12 * 0.62 = 7.44 PP.

    As you are 12 hit over the cap it effectly makes 12 hit of the Surplus Limb Redundant, so instead of 32 hit, it actually offers 20 hit.

    This means the Surplus Limb in this scenario is worth:

    98.02(121.22) = 37 + 21*0.62 + 41*0.62 + 20 * 1.16

    Plague Igniter

    60.48 = 37 + 21*0.62 + 20*0.22 + 24*0.62

    A total PP of 121.22 + 60.48 = 181.7

    Vs my setup

    Accursed Spine

    106.9 = 65 + 41*0.2 + 32*0.22 + 43*0.62

    Gemmed Wand of the Nerubians

    55.04(75.92) = 37 + 22*0.2 + 22*0.62 + 18*1.16

    A total PP of 106.9 + 75.92 = 182.82

    it's a mere difference of 1.12 PP but my spreadsheet was designed to find the highest theoretical PP set which is 3615.68 (providing I have the right values for trinkets/metas and the like)

    You may argue for such a small PP loss that it's worth being fully hit capped... I can understand that for sure... however this setup does yeild slightly more spirit (for regen) and crit which may be desired over haste.

    I guess i'll take whatever setup I manage to win rolls on... the accursed spine does double as a nice holy off hand as well. (On the flip side the Plague Igniter doubles as a nice holy wand).




  7. #27

    Re: Hit...or best in slot...what to choose.

    Quote Originally Posted by K21Nova
    If "best in slot" items depend on your gear setup; ie. they take into account your hit, expertise or defense, then there are no definite "best in slot" items.

    There are simply items that happen to be the best for your gear setup at a given time.

    Therefore no item can be called "best in slot", without knowing which gear setup it belongs to.

    They should be called "best item belonging to a specific gear setup" or "best in slot with this specific gear setup" not simply "best in slot".
    Sometimes there are, sometimes it's interpretational... I think someone pointed out the Hood of Rationality which is better than any other head piece, even when you factor in hit... in otherwords if you weren't hit capped you would be better off missing some spells because the raw dps stats on the Hood would make up for missing. It's that far and away the best item to use.

  8. #28
    I am Murloc!
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    Re: Hit...or best in slot...what to choose.

    in otherwords if you weren't hit capped you would be better off missing some spells because the raw dps stats on the Hood would make up for missing.
    Theroycraft *shudders*

  9. #29

    Re: Hit...or best in slot...what to choose.

    lets take an extreme...

    Lets say I let myself lose 1% to hit to gain 1000 spellpower... it's obvious to anyone that the 99 spells that land would hit for so much more damage that missing 1 in 100 spells would mean nothing.

    This is a clear example of when SP is > hit... sure that won't ever happen but i'm making a point that X SP will be greater than Y Hit at some point.

    Why you think it's better to do less dps just to hit 100% of the time is beyond me... if putting in a piece of gear that makes 99% of your spells to greater damage than that 1 spell that misses then you should gear that way.

    Your only argument is that RNG can fuck you, and I agree... you might have a 1% miss rate but you get unlucky and miss 5% of your spells... that means your SP gain would have to be 5 times better for it to do more dps...

    However I can take this exact argument and apply it to crit... most people would lose 5 SP for 2% crit... now dots aside (coz its a bit more complex for us) the reason you lose 5 SP is to crit 2 more times than usual every 100 spells and that will make up for the 98 spells that are now cast at weaker strength... what if your crit rate stays exactly the same? You just lost dps for adding in more crit.

    So I hope Nezoia that if hitting 100% of the time means that much to you that you never ever sacrafice SP for crit gains... otherwise you are being rather hypocritical.

  10. #30

    Re: Hit...or best in slot...what to choose.

    I was just going through the list at www.shadowpriest.com and not all the items have correct values. Some haste/crit values were still at 0.61 and weren't updated to 0.62. So it brings the numbers even closer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka
    A total PP of 106.9 + 75.92 = 182.82
    OK. ugh.
    Your setup is
    106.9+55.04=161.94

    My setup is
    98.02+60.48=158.5


    So. Your setup is 3.44 white PP (pure dps) higher than mine. You also have 2 under hit cap. I have extra hit rating(IT DOESN'T MATTER). Agree with me on this so I can stop posting

  11. #31

    Re: Hit...or best in slot...what to choose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka
    I totally agree it's splitting hairs ...
    Exert from previous post

  12. #32

    Re: Hit...or best in slot...what to choose.

    Bets is slot items is good, and i would recomend you to spend dkp points on it, but...
    You somehow forget that hit(expertise) are increasing the power of other stats - theorcraft shows that in numbers. You do need to be hit caped, and that is must have so you can trust theory in a full way. Spellcasters scaling mechanics rely on hit a lot and ruins if you are not hit caped - the more hit you miss the less you will get from pure PP upgrade just because it has a hidden hit-penalty.
    1,2...10... points hit-missed does not actually create hard hidden penalty on PP and you can ignore it. But is you are missing 50-100 hit.. you will see it in recount - the numbers you are expecting from PP may be the same then with hit caped fellows but real damage will be lower.
    Theorcrafters actually create their theories thinking that you have already hit capped in default - then their numbers will be correct in damage meters. If not - you'll see some surprising changes.

    That's why hit PP value always higher than any other stat until cap.
    And that does not really matter if you miss some small amount of hit - you can ignore it and chose higher PP item instead of trying to get the missing 1-5 points.

    Dual-melee has more problems with scaling and Theorcrafters made several capes for them, to make the math easier.

  13. #33

    Re: Hit...or best in slot...what to choose.

    Quote Originally Posted by ubermonkey
    I was just going through the list at www.shadowpriest.com and not all the items have correct values. Some haste/crit values were still at 0.61 and weren't updated to 0.62. So it brings the numbers even closer.
    Keep in mind that pseudo power was calculated using a very specific basis:

    default_intellect=777
    default_spirit=411
    default_spell_power=2200
    default_crit_rating=461
    default_hit_rating=290
    default_haste_rating=452

    Also keep in mind, that's not including flask, food, or inner fire which are cast as actions. The pp values that Worshaka keeps listing are only true if you are pretty close to those numbers. Keep in mind as well that even if you use those numbers you still have to specify scale factor's for each of the stats. I could run the simcraft with everything exactly same as the OP (OP on the shadowpriest post), but change the scale factors and get completely different pp values.

    What I'm trying to say is don't just take the pp values for granted. Simcraft is not perfect yet, and sometimes you will have to think for yourself to decide whats right. How many of us arguing are at 2200 sp completely unbuffed? Are those number's even possible to attain as of now? (I don't think they are)

  14. #34

    Re: Hit...or best in slot...what to choose.

    Thats very true... my gear list arrives at the following values

    2064 SP + Inner Fire + Illustration stacks
    798 Int + Base
    400 spirit + Base
    288 Hit
    470 crit
    475 haste

    So i'm confident that the PP values will tend very close to the theorycraft.

  15. #35

    Re: Hit...or best in slot...what to choose.

    i ran the simcraft with ur values and the following scale factors:

    scale_spell_power=50
    scale_hit_rating=-50
    scale_crit_rating=50
    scale_haste_rating=50
    scale_intellect=200
    scale_spirit=250

    and it gave the following pp values:

    spirit .137
    intellect .137
    spellpower 1
    hit 1.309
    crit .576
    haste .360

    I ran it again keeping everything the same, except for changing the scale factors to :

    scale_spell_power=250
    scale_hit_rating=-250
    scale_crit_rating=250
    scale_haste_rating=250
    scale_intellect=250
    scale_spirit=250

    and it spit out:

    spirit .225
    intellect .232
    spellpower 1
    hit 1.188
    crit .638
    haste .623

    Seems inconsistent.

  16. #36

    Re: Hit...or best in slot...what to choose.


  17. #37

    Re: Hit...or best in slot...what to choose.

    Quote Originally Posted by heriana
    i ran the simcraft with ur values and the following scale factors:

    scale_spell_power=50
    scale_hit_rating=-50
    scale_crit_rating=50
    scale_haste_rating=50
    scale_intellect=200
    scale_spirit=250

    and it gave the following pp values:

    spirit .137
    intellect .137
    spellpower 1
    hit 1.309
    crit .576
    haste .360

    I ran it again keeping everything the same, except for changing the scale factors to :

    scale_spell_power=250
    scale_hit_rating=-250
    scale_crit_rating=250
    scale_haste_rating=250
    scale_intellect=250
    scale_spirit=250

    and it spit out:

    spirit .225
    intellect .232
    spellpower 1
    hit 1.188
    crit .638
    haste .623

    Seems inconsistent.
    Correct me if i'm wrong, but the values utilised at shadowpriest.com are from running several thousand simulations instead of taking data from just 1 or 2 parses.

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