Priest vs Paladin grouphealing after patches.

[Val3rim]

HL is meant to be spammable. I doubt we would have such haste itemization if it wasn't. FoL has been dethroned as the main pally healing spell, it might be ok for some trash but when people are taking big hits, FoL doesn't cut it anymore. There isn't a problem with holy light. The glyph range was OP, now it isn't.

Val3rim, you said smart people don't complain about the meters, yet you are saying people with massive overheal need told off? Screw overheal. So long as people are kept up, that is all that matters and if that means some will get a big overheal, well people are going to have to do something about their ego's.

well screw overheal?? i mean common if you mindless spamming like you cba and overheal 70%! thats a lot!!!! propably other healing classes cover up the failure of that paladin
topping healing meters isnt important its knowing what you heal!
so that guy will fail so much if he keeps that attitude of mindless spamming at ulduar
because you will have a missing link.
It cant be good that other healers have to cover your healing while you overheal for 70%

[snuu]

I'm just telling you that if you stick with the sentiment that Holy Light is supposed to be spammed I have a strong feeling that you are in for some disappointment down the road.

All of your posts show you have no clue about paladin healing.

In sunwell if you didn't spam HL the whole time you were a lolnoob. That means if you want to be cutting edge on progression you need to be able to have that option even if it means stacking everything in order to do so. Which is exactly what we did.

Not to mention you completely disregard the fact that divine plea actually DECREASES your healing when you use it. don't think spirit does that. And it costs a GCD. Both of these points lead a main tank to die during progression raids. And if we want more thoroughput from it we get more INT. not Mp5 so gear wise its still itemization points put towards regen and mana pool. If you don't believe that there are items like this just look at boots of healing energies and poignant sabatons. one clearly has more INT and mp5 than the other.

[Ananan]

I know very very well that HL (mostly downranked) was spammed in Sunwell. What I'm asking you is if you seriously believe that some Blizzard designer sat down and said:

"Let's give paladins two main heals. One useless tiny little thing that they never need to worry about and one AMAZING super-heal that has absolutely unparallelled throughput. Let's make that one really expensive, but still spammable for a whole bossfight even in early content gear."

I don't care what you did in Sunwell. They didn't balance classes around that raid, they balanced the raid around the state of the classes at that point. They don't do it like that anymore.

I don't care what you are able to do now. Ask yourself what the intention is. You know the Holy Light throughput is too good.

[Turgil]

If one Paladin at Saphiron(10) or two (25) are just healing the MT, have no Mana problems, but still have 60-70% overheal how does that lead to other healers having to cover for us? A 20k crit will lead to overheal most of the time, but the alternative would be a 5-6k FL crit that is just not enough.

Before the coh/wg nerf the reason for paladin overheal were these smart heals that were always faster than a paladin.

If not for the throughput for HL was has a paladin to offer? It does not matter that we can spam FL for hours if you need three paladins on the MT to keep him alive

[sTigmatico]

Can't you have both spells on your bar and sort of alternate between them? What's with the, "If I don't have enough mana to spam HL for 8 minutes I will have to spam FoL the whole time and never use HL. I will finish every fight on 97% mana of course, but my throughput will suck."

Step down a bit, throw some flashes inbetween and use HL when needed. It isn't supposed to break you. If it does then perhaps FoL needs a buff, what do I know.

I'm just telling you that if you stick with the sentiment that Holy Light is supposed to be spammed I have a strong feeling that you are in for some disappointment down the road. It's balanced around being expensive as hell so it can't be used like that. It's like if priests would start to argue that the right way to raid-heal should be to stuff a holy priest in each group and have them spam Prayer of Healing for 5 minutes. That shouldn't work either, and the only difference is that it doesn't while the paladin version does.

I usually end up with 15%~ from FoL under a entire Naxx run, but it don't cut it under a boss fight. Which means HoL will always be up front.

[snuu]

No, Holy Light HPS-wise was always the best single target heal. The only thing they changed was that now you don't have to spam two-three mana pots and be in the shadow priest group in order to do it.

Why does that matter? Because this is early content and geared for noobs. HMMMMMM i wonder what the biggest factor is in noobs wiping to new content. I would have guessed tank deaths in TBC. Now do you ever have a problem with tanks dying? I wonder why? Because blizz is trying to make this content easy.

Seriously get a view of paladin healing. Look at the big picture. and sit yourself down. youre done son.

[Ananan]

I'm not trying to fight you or anything and I'm not a true expert on paladin healing (mine was always prot and has been kept at 70 for now). I smell failed design here though and I think that the developers will try to correct that. I think that Holy Light is more spammable than they intended and I think that perhaps Flash of Light is underpowered as well.

Here is a different direction to consider: when did HL become the paladin go-to spell over FoL, and why?

(This is a rhetorical question. We have our own answer.)

This matter seems to upset a lot of paladins so I'll stay out of it from now on. Just be aware that change might happen and try not to turn it into the annoying CoH discussions when it does.

[Micoud]

beside if you say that palas overhealing was 70%

so that means that 70% wich paladin overhealed was filled up by aoe healers like druids, priests and resto shamans.

basically slap your paladins around their ears i would do it when i see palas overhealing for 70%

i mean 30% / 40% ok because of the splash and crit healing wich might overheal

BUT mindless spamming as wannabee AoE healer and than overheal for 70% pffff
just to be high on healing

Back in the days when i was holy paladin i tried to keep at least my tank alive
but care less about how high i was on healing as its a different job you have to do

And smart people wont whine about healing meters if you get the job done

Next time check the healing received, if your MT gets more healing from AoE healers than from paladins, yet paladins are topping the meters with 70% overheal
kick them from the raid and tell them l2play.

cheers
Val

are you totally stupid?

a paladins primary goal is to keep his tank alive. so if you look at the two available healing spells that do not have a cooldown, holy light and flash of light that is, you will notice that one spell heals for a very large amount and the other one for just about 6k. 6k is just not enough to keep the tank alive in fights like satharion+3d or malygos. so spamming holy light is your only choice. besides that you keep judgement of light up (if you are the only paladin) and you got some passive, uncontrollable healing from your holy light glyph.

whether or not your tank has full life does not matter, you have to spam holy light constantly. waiting for him to take damage and begin healing afterwards will end up in your tanks death.

even if i were in a fight in which i can heal my raid due to a low amount of incoming tank damage, i would always use holy light. if i see a player receive 5000 damage i will always heal him up with my 20k holy light which will end up in mass overheal also. why should i use flash of light? my holy lights casting time is low and i'd never run oom.

so if you consider all these points you will come to the conclusion that a pally with ~30% overheal is a bad one.

[LuckyBucky]

How did this turn into a post about pallys? I come from a Healadin and am leveling a 77 Holy Priest. I started leveling him from 70 after the CoH nerf. I already can see how when I start nax on the priest I might not be the number one healer on charts, but I will by far be the most important member in the raid. If a fury war comes to a group with 5k dps while the enchance shams only at 3k does that make the fury war better? No. The dps that the sham provides to the raid alone outdoes the warriors if the shammy stood there looking dumb. So while my paladin looks pretty and will be getting a ton of passive healing while healing the MT I beleive my priest will have much more of an impact on the outcome of encounters then my pally ever could. Personally im glad they nerfed CoH because priests have so many other skills that are useful in so many situations and skilled priests will always get the nod in my groups. Pally healing on Loken's one of the most heartpounding and vigourous activities ever in wow, while I can pretty much faceroll loken with a priest

[tehealadin]

well screw overheal?? i mean common if you mindless spamming like you cba and overheal 70%! thats a lot!!!! propably other healing classes cover up the failure of that paladin
topping healing meters isnt important its knowing what you heal!
so that guy will fail so much if he keeps that attitude of mindless spamming at ulduar
because you will have a missing link.
It cant be good that other healers have to cover your healing while you overheal for 70%

Could you reword this so it makes sense please? Sorry, I am having a hard time making out what exactly you mean by this.

Other healers cover for you if you have a high % overheal? It doesn't make sense...a high overheal is not an indicator of failure. Heck I remember when I used to raid all the time in MH/BT, my %overheal was big, always over 50%, no one was covering for me though. I seen someones health drop, my tank is ok, I throw em an FoL, by the time the cast finishes WG has healed the target, therefore I get overheal.

This isn't a failing. Most of my overheal came from trash, since on bosses the healers would have more specific targets (on trash we would have tank healers and raid healers, but I'd always help raid heal anyway, because healing is my job). You mean this makes me a bad healer? Then you are wrong. Since I knew which trash mobs would bring on the most hurt, and because of WG/CoH, I was able to throw heals to others without risking my target.

They weren't covering for me, covering implies they are picking up the slack because you can't keep up. A high % overheal doesn't signify that someone cannot keep the pace. My % overheal would drop on bosses. Now with WotLK, I have no idea what my overheal is like, I bet it is massive on boss fights. As Micoud said, you can't rely on FoL to keep up tanks, even if they are down just 5k health, Ill use holy light as it compensates for any damage taken during the cast time. Heck, even in 5 mans, if I am in an AoE fight, you think I'd just spam FoL and hope for the best? No way, it isn't strong enough, I spam holy light, when it crits it will mean overhealing is done, but its better that they are healed right up than way short.

You just don't get it, we need big heals because we can't heal lots of people at one time, you need to know you can heal a person right up in an AE situation because it will be a good few casts before you will get back to them. The idea that % overheal means a bad healer is a wrong assumption. If you are wiping due to healer OOM and they have a high overheal, then you have a problem, but if you aren't wiping, people are staying alive and the bosses are dropping, then that means you have a good set of healers with you.