rake vs savage roar

[hellhugger]

It seems to happen a fair bit that i get into a bit of a crunch with both rake and savage roar falling off, and only the energy to put 1 up straight away, so far my thinking is to get the rake up asap and then suffer a couple seconds of low white hits till i can get roar back up..or should i do it the other way...

[Oweena]

Err.. I'm guessing you mean rip by which. You should only rip if savage roar is up.

Rip also scales with your attack power so waisting the time without rip up is actually a DPS loss

Even if you are talking about rake still only rake with savage roar up as the attack power boost increases the damage it does.

[hellhugger]

mayhaps i could have explained better, i mean rake.
when it has 2 seconds left, savage roar has 2 seconds left, unless i have 5 cp, i rake, then wait for the 25 energy and savage roar..

[Ikkatsu]

Priority:

Rip (5CP) > Roar (3CP) > Rake > Mangle

Always ensure you have a 5 point Rip up.

You should only be spending 3 points on Roar.

While Rip and Roar are up, then use Rake.

If all three are up and ticking, spam Mangle.

[Swiftly]

rip is the most important but as said in an earlier post. rip should only be used while savage roar is up. this also applies to rake. with that said savage roar needs to be up in order to apply rip and rake. if you can get good timing down then you can rake & rip off tiger's fury also.

savage roar > rip > rake > mangle / shred

as long as i have savage roar up then i rip even if i have less then 5 seconds left on savage roar. i'll take the hit and mangle spam rather then shred to keep up savage roar.

[Wildhorn]

Priority:

Rip (5CP) > Roar (3CP) > Rake > Mangle

Always ensure you have a 5 point Rip up.

You should only be spending 3 points on Roar.

While Rip and Roar are up, then use Rake.

If all three are up and ticking, spam Mangle.

complete retard here


SV (5CP) > Rip (4CP) > Rake > Mangle > Shred

Of course, only use SV/Rip/Mangle if it is not already on target.

[Moxal]

Ok, this is kind of a dumb question, but I am asking for a friend of mine, and it seems the same question is being eluded to in the thread:

Is there a point (gear wise? level wise? fight?) where mangle spam > shred (aside from keeping the mangle debuff up, of course)?

My friend is currently using shred with the heroism shred idol.

Thanks!

[Avermra]

Ok, this is kind of a dumb question, but I am asking for a friend of mine, and it seems the same question is being eluded to in the thread:

Is there a point (gear wise? level wise? fight?) where mangle spam > shred (aside from keeping the mangle debuff up, of course)?

My friend is currently using shred with the heroism shred idol.

Thanks!

Shred only becomes INCREASINGLY better than mangle as you get more gear, so at very low gear level mangle and shred matches, but after that you will never look back. Next time you might want to start your own thread

As to the original question of the thread starter. You will want to refresh Savage Roar first due to 2 reasons
1.Savage Roar will modify the strength of your rake, so the 1 second lost on refreshing SR first will easily be outweigh by the fact that your rake will tick harder.
2.Rake generates a combo point, so if you're at 5 CP and use rake first, you effectively lost a combo point. If you use Rake before you have 5 CP, then this point doesn't matter.

[arel00]

In short, SR is prioritized over anything (you shouldn't really see Rip and SR fall off together... if they do you're doing something wrong). So renew SR before you renew Rake.

Shred for CPs is better than Mangle spam, period. Those of us that use a Mangle spam rotation are tanks lacking Shredding Attacks, which is the only reason.

[Swiftly]

Mangle
base cost: 45 energy
ferocity 5/5: -5 energy
imp mangle 3/3: -6 energy
new cost: 34 energy

energy used
mangle#1 34
mangle#2 68
mangle#3 102
mangle#4 136
mangle#5 170


Shred
base cost: 60 energy
shredding attacks 2/2: -18 energy
new cost: 42 energy

energy used
shred#1 42
shred#2 84
shred#3 126
shred#4 168


the energy ratio of shred and mangle is 4 shreds to 5 mangles. even with berserk the scaling is the same. so people saying that you can get more CP from mangles then shred is semi correct. mangle spam gets 1 more CP then shred with the same amount of energy. this is not much of a difference. if the numbers was lower like 2:3 then on the longer run you will build more CP with mangle then shred. but on trash you will never get the full benefit at most you may earn 1cp, 2cp if your lucky per mob.

on boss fights it is easier to juggle mangles as a tank / mangle dps spec then tank / shred dps spec. why mangle dps build over laps nicely with tanking talents more. why do i say this when shredding attacks reduce both shred and lacerate? well i'll tell you think on boss fights when i use single target rotation which is just about the only time i really use lacerate the boss gives me more then enough rage to worry about -3 rage to lacerate. this lets you pick up Feral Instincts which helps you with your AE tanking and kitty AE.

now you have to relate the difference in damage of shred vs mangle.

mangle
200% damage plus 634

shred
225% damage plus 742.5

base difference is
200% = X
X+(12.5% of X) = X*1.125

634 = Y
Y+108.5

(X*1.125) + (y+108.5)

since Y is set in stone shred will always do 108.5 more damage then mangle no matter if it is 1000 vs 4000 damage shred will add 108.5 more damage then mangle. the real scaling comes into play when your base damage grows, which then shred does pull away from mangle. there is only 2 talents that effect one but not the other. Savage Fury effects mangle by 20% and Rend&Tear effects shred by 20% so they cancel each other out. but tremor debuff you get from mangle increases shred by 30%

plus 30% increase = times 1.3
(x*1.125)1.3 + (y+108.5)1.3

because of this the large the base damage is the more shred will pull away from mangle. the only thing is rotation wise mangle you only have to worry about savage roar, rip & rake to keep up but with a shred build you have to also keep mangle debuff up. so shred does scale better then mangle but you also have to worry about another ability you have to reapply. also mangle debuff only last for 12 seconds (18seconds if glyphed) so you going to have to reapply mangle anyways and if your getting lag you may not always get in postion for shred.

mangle spam = simple
shred rotation = complex

[Swiftly]

In short, SR is prioritized over anything (you shouldn't really see Rip and SR fall off together... if they do you're doing something wrong). So renew SR before you renew Rake.

Shred for CPs is better than Mangle spam, period. Those of us that use a Mangle spam rotation are tanks lacking Shredding Attacks, which is the only reason.

i agree with this! even though as i was typing my long post, you did sneak yours in.

My Build i do have 6.5% expertise and some +hit, no matter if i am in dps gear or tanking gear. so i do not need primal precision. i rarely miss anything to worry about losing energy if i miss.

[Solux]

As everyone else has said, get Savage Roar up first. Rake is nice damage, but Savage Roar helps Rake and the White hits in between its reapplication.

@Swiftly
There are some druids using 2T6 for the extra 5 energy reduction to Mangle. From calculations I've seen on EJ and am too lazy to go find, if you combine this with the other reductions to Mangle's Energy cost, the DPE of Mangle gets very close to the DPE of Shred. Whether it's worth keeping those 2T6 to do that, I'm not so sure.

[Swiftly]

the numbers with 2T6 is pre-WotLK and some T6 is good only up to lv 80 pre raiding. once you get to this point your giving up a lot of stats just for the 2piece bonus

[Kelesti]

the numbers with 2T6 is pre-WotLK and some T6 is good only up to lv 80 pre raiding. once you get to this point your giving up a lot of stats just for the 2piece bonus

Welcome back to TBC with 2pc4.

[halmmar]

the numbers with 2T6 is pre-WotLK and some T6 is good only up to lv 80 pre raiding. once you get to this point your giving up a lot of stats just for the 2piece bonus

I pull 5k dps in 2T6 (wrist and belt). You can still shred on clearcasting and with the number of Rake/Mangle/Rip/SR you have to do to keep those buffs up, you don't lose much dps by doing 2T6 in a tank spec.

[arel00]

Welcome back to TBC with 2pc4.

Only, this is not TBC.
Mangle spam is, and will always remain, restricted to tank specced druids who have to keep up a dps cycle. For everyone that is cat specced, Shred is superior and will pull ahead more and more as gear improves.
That is all there is to it.