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  1. #41

    Re: Are SPs OP in PVE?

    the best run I had on patch me and the other SP lead the meter until the last 30% when heroism and execute spamage put a warrior at number 1 and me and the other finished 2 and 3 with 5k dps.

  2. #42

    Re: Are SPs OP in PVE?

    im usually in the top 3 of my guild tbh we could use a little buff but not a huge one... but i think SP's seem more gear dependent than other casters

  3. #43

    Re: Are SPs OP in PVE?

    It's been said, but your other dps is bad or your sp is just that good.

  4. #44

    Re: Are SPs OP in PVE?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coulson
    im usually in the top 3 of my guild tbh we could use a little buff but not a huge one... but i think SP's seem more gear dependent than other casters
    Less dependant probably. If we slack behind as gear is better, that means we scale badly, so are less dependant on gear in a way.

  5. #45

    Re: Are SPs OP in PVE?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coulson
    im usually in the top 3 of my guild tbh we could use a little buff but not a huge one... but i think SP's seem more gear dependent than other casters
    quite interesting responses, but it seems to be constantly repeating that most SPs say they are usually in the top 3 on bosses like patchwork, but are not OP and therefore the rest of the DPS must suck.

    So I can only assume:
    1) that the other DPS classes of these guilds all suck at DPS and pretty much only the SPs in these guilds know how to play.

    or

    2) there is some kind of truth in my original post and SPs are OP

    Though ofc it is hard to find out how well the gear levels are balanced in these guilds, so some may be at the lower end of the gear scale and SPs maybe come out better at this level.

    I do find it very funny how ppl say that they are usually in the top 3 (though not usually in the really short boss fights), but they feel they could do with a little boost in DPS lol
    though tbh I expected some ppl to respond like this with the thinking that SPs should be better DPS than other pureDPS or hybridDPS classes.

    ofc Blizzard is looking at doing more changes to classes atm anyhow, so things may get balanced out after that. We'll see i guess.

  6. #46
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    Re: Are SPs OP in PVE?

    Trust me, when SPs say they are top 3 on patchwerk, they either outgear or outskill their dps "partners".

    I too was regularly top 3 on patchwerk when we started raiding 25 mans. I was a bit better geared then our warlocks and I probably was a better player than our DKs. Now that the gear is about equal, and the DKs learned the intricacies of their class, there is no way I will outdps demo-warlocks, unholy DKs or Fury warriors.

    Mages, well at least ours are around the middle of the DPS chart, but I'd say the just flat out suck. Dunno their spec, but all they do basically is spam frostfirebolt. Don't deserver to top the charts with such a joke of a rotation anyway.
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  7. #47
    I am Murloc!
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    Re: Are SPs OP in PVE?

    And yet back then it was so simple. And when Sunwell came out the difference between who liked haste and who did not was very great, yet both sides did superb dps non the less.

    Now gear choices is more limited on what drops, than what's actually best. And we're forced to consider hit a part of our game again.

    Priest itself was never so complex to play, to simplify it, shadowpriest is:

    1) Keep your DoTs up, and clip them perfectly
    2) Clip Mind Flay for Mind Blast
    3) Clever use of Shadowfiend, Dispersion, and Wild Magic potions
    4) Clever use of SW for movement

    What defines a good priest today is more what defines all good players, the players who never die while they don't get carried by their guild. Players who can dispel and still do 4000 dps.

    We're nothing special compared to the other classes, except our healer-hybrid and utilities there of. A good priest can play all aspects of the class.

    Those reasons is also why I personally play with Improved VE, because I think it's some of what defines shadowpriest as class, the shadow healer.

  8. #48

    Re: Are SPs OP in PVE?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nezoia
    And yet back then it was so simple. And when Sunwell came out the difference between who liked haste and who did not was very great, yet both sides did superb dps non the less.

    Now gear choices is more limited on what drops, than what's actually best. And we're forced to consider hit a part of our game again.

    Priest itself was never so complex to play, to simplify it, shadowpriest is:

    1) Keep your DoTs up, and clip them perfectly
    2) Clip Mind Flay for Mind Blast
    3) Clever use of Shadowfiend, Dispersion, and Wild Magic potions
    4) Clever use of SW for movement

    What defines a good priest today is more what defines all good players, the players who never die while they don't get carried by their guild. Players who can dispel and still do 4000 dps.

    We're nothing special compared to the other classes, except our healer-hybrid and utilities there of. A good priest can play all aspects of the class.

    Those reasons is also why I personally play with Improved VE, because I think it's some of what defines shadowpriest as class, the shadow healer.
    This is just what pisses me off about the whole "youre not a dps class" thingy, we´re priest as we can respec to holy, loldisc or this amazing support spec where we are suposed to do all the things every other class can do better than us called shadow, we´re suposed to be this hybrid class with ooh so much utility yet hunters have had replenishment since 3.0 next patch mages and warlocks get it too, now dispelling in raid as shadow? sure its been done, but why would you waste a dps spot on dispels or abolish disease? and please VE "shadow healing" what planet are you from?

    Blizzard wants us to bring the player not the class yet they continue to suffer the fools thinking that shadowpriests holy priests and discpriests are the same class, theyre not as soon as a priest starts putting talents into the shadow tree there is no healing comming youre way, there is nothing hybrid about a priest unless no talents are set, there is no utillity left.

    Uldur is suposed to be harder, what is the point of bring a sub par dpsér who brings nothing to the raid? we´re suposed to be competetive yet still not the best, even the socalled broken rogues are ripping us a new one, theres nothing competitive about beeing 8th in perfect gear sweetheart.

    OP got a few answers right tho "We´re nothing special compared to other classes" but the Shadow healer-hybrid... please get out of town!

  9. #49
    I am Murloc!
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    Re: Are SPs OP in PVE?

    From my point of view, VE adds as much as Seal of Light. So it's a raid benefit.

    Replenishment for warlocks & mages only occour if they go deep down in talents that's otherwise less dps. It's meant as a possbility, not a demand.

    What we offer? Misery. Most raids today is designed around having a shadowpriest in it for replenishment and misery.

  10. #50

    Re: Are SPs OP in PVE?

    What I don't understand is why all you PvErs care about how OP another class is. Yes, in PvP a status of OP would hamper the capabilities of another class. But while all you people fight your little bosses isn't more DPS just beneficial to your raid? Chill your epeens down and think logically for a second.

  11. #51

    Re: Are SPs OP in PVE?

    did I miss somthing is VE going to be raid wide in 3.1? or how is it as good as JoL. I totally agree current raids are setup arround haveing a shadow priest for both misery and repleishment, however we do less damage compared to the socalled pureblooded dps classes now than we did in the start of wotlk, the gap seems to grow, and so does the concern of some, if we are to make up for the lack of dps in the future more hopefully damage demanding encounters with our utility, then I´m affraid our days are numbered.

    when you say misery I say:Improved Faerie Fire add imp moonkin aura and insect swarm to that.
    when you say replenishment: i gotta metion survival, and the utility bomb the ret-pala.
    granted you would need either a shadow priest or a boomkin for the spellhit, but boomkins do fairly well atm and imo brings more to the raid than a priest does since replinishment is far from a trademark anymore.

    @ kaizer before i follow youre lead and drag this thread off topic by saying somthing foolish like

    "in pve youre mistakes are actually meaning you die, while in PvP you dying from youre mistakes actually requires youre opponet to pick up on youre mistake and not make one of his own while doing so"

    ow snap, im just making so many new friends now arent I

    the difference in classes DPS matters when you want to kill scripted stuff, and wouldn´t mind a raidspot.

    Like I posted this might not mean the world with the current content, but some achievements actually do require dps, and I as many I´m sure many others pray stuff will become harder in the not so far future, so if the gap between some classes becomes too big, any half witted RL would pick the best classes because lets face it why would you bring subpar dps for a grp based JoL? and then little johnny wont get to raid with his friends and do silly achievements beating scripted encounters week after week.

    You couldnt care less I know, but some do and this thread is actually about the subject.

  12. #52
    I am Murloc!
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    Re: Are SPs OP in PVE?

    Quote Originally Posted by merrin
    did I miss somthing is VE going to be raid wide in 3.1? or how is it as good as JoL.
    Well, even it have little reason now, we used 3 shadowpriests on M'uru to totally ignore healing on the caster groups they were in. Allowed us to go with one healer less, and let our healers focus on more important targets. While not a common stategy, it worked for us.

    In WotLK, I see VE as a great asset against Twilight Torment when you're doing Sartharion with multiple drakes.

    I totally agree current raids are setup arround haveing a shadow priest for both misery and repleishment, however we do less damage compared to the socalled pureblooded dps classes now than we did in the start of wotlk
    Ofcource, even in TBC shadowpriests were the fastest scaling caster class. Remember you can't compare our dps with melee, ever. It's casters versus casters.

    And frost mage is a really weak dps tree compared to shadow. It's unlikely any guild would bring a frost mage, or warlock, as replenishment rather than a shadowpriest. The loss is simply to great, and the synergi with Death Knights, and casters in general is to good to miss out on.

    , the gap seems to grow, and so does the concern of some, if we are to make up for the lack of dps in the future more hopefully damage demanding encounters with our utility, then I´m affraid our days are numbered.
    Remember one thing. You don't kill bosses by doing dps, you kill bosses by not dying.

    The ability to assist with healing (VE), possible throw a few shields around, cast some heals if absolutly nessary, is the priests asset to the raid.

    A mage can't save a raid, a priest can. Remember that.

    when you say misery I say:Improved Faerie Fire add imp moonkin aura and insect swarm to that.
    Casting FF is a dps drop, and a large strain to the moonkins mana pool.

    when you say replenishment: i gotta metion survival, and the utility bomb the ret-pala.
    I must remind you that atleast two times replenishment for a 25man raid is expected. And knowing hunters, survival will never scale to be full flegded dps.

    Also it depends alot on your regulare raid composition. While we attempt to get two hunters in every raid (one survival, one w/e dps spec), it's not always it's possible.

    granted you would need either a shadow priest or a boomkin for the spellhit but boomkins do fairly well atm and imo brings more to the raid than a priest does since replinishment is far from a trademark anymore.
    As mentioned above, keeping up FF is not a nice thing for the druids, and Insect Swam will probably not scale to be usefull in Ulduar.

    Try chat a bit with your fellow moonkins, listen to what they got to say about Misery.

    lets face it why would you bring subpar dps for a grp based JoL?
    In Sunwell, I would. I can't say anything about Ulduar yet. We'll see when time comes. But sufficient to say, in the hardest encounter ever made you WOULD bring subpair dps for certain class buffs.

    And to finish it off I'll once again, remind you, that bosses die -- even without cookiecutter setups.

    I mean, we still bring a rogue for patchwerk, because he's our raid leader...

  13. #53

    Re: Are SPs OP in PVE?

    A bit more utility wouldn't hurt, and VE feels a little less powerful than JoL and the Blood Aura. It was more fun when it did better group healing and you could time some burst-healing on bosses like Naj'entus.

    I guess there will be some announcement regarding the hymns soonish. Other than that I'm a bit jealous that they gave Pain Suppression to all paladin specs and kept the priest one at a talent. Hand of Sacrifice is a slightly better spell for PvE too (cooldown, duration). Retri paladins have utility coming out of their ears these days.

  14. #54

    Re: Are SPs OP in PVE?

    on brut I could solo heal my group the whole fight with VE. likewise my healing was almost up to 1000hps on muru aswell as keeping 1600dps phase 1 from multi dotting.

    some fights a shadowpriest truely reigns. sarth 3d is a fight where we really come into our own providing sick aoe, good sarth/drake dps and requiring little healing throughout the fight compared to other dps classes. me and the other sp get told to reduce the whelps between drake dps. everyone else is told to dps the drakes.

    in 10 man 3 drake I can solo heal the ret pala while he tanks the portal mob.

    we bring a lot to the fights compared to other classes

  15. #55

    Re: Are SPs OP in PVE?

    @ Nezoia

    VE was changed it isnt what it used to be, even with our increased damage it is far from what it used to be, and far, FAR from JoL, one incounter sartharion when afflicted with twillight torment and there its nice at best even combined with JoL. but as a shadow priest on sartharion you gotta watch youre hp when getting TT so the utillity for the raid is just so insignificant its not worth mentioning over mindsear on this particular encounter.

    To adress replinishment last i checked survival is the prefered build for hunters atm, so stop pounding youre chest captain obvious, like you said youreself noone would ever bring a frost mage its just not viable, and this is where you hit the nail head on dps VS utility frost mages arent viable.. and this is exactly what I dont want to happen for priests.

    Instead of splitting up a post commenting on every line read it again and understand the concern is about us subpar dps while offering nothing, noone else can bring.

    We all remeber how we scaled in tbc, apart from %mana regen wich we havent got any more, we ended up beeing something raids brought when raids couldnt position them correctly to utilize CH, on 1 encounter. seriously what SW guild had 3 shadowpriest spots like you describe it? maybe for Muru we had 2, but im pretty sure blizard psoted somewhere they wouldnt make another muru in the near future.

    Maybe its fixed maybe we wont see ourselfs drop down the meters as we progress in this exp., but from what i see we are not scaling as well as the other casters, our gimick heal is somthing blizz wanted to remove but instead nerfed to somthing else but it def isnt a raid utillity.
    there is no longer any difference, pure dps classes are having as much utillity as as the hybrids, and yet they demand a substantial buff when it comes to damage output.

  16. #56

    Re: Are SPs OP in PVE?

    why oooh why would you mention healing youre group on brut?.. you know they changed VE right? we are playing WOTLK now.
    and why would you bring a ret pala to a caster group when doing OS10?
    and no shadow priests doesnt reign on sartharion, its in youre head

  17. #57

    Re: Are SPs OP in PVE?

    I was just saying that tbc we could solo heal groups as was mentioned before about muru. not anymore.

    because the ret gives us another blessing and he can tank the mob inside the portal while the drake and whelp tanks are outside

    our 10m sarth group is made up of:
    Druid MT
    2 DK's tanking the drakes and adds
    ret pala
    moonkin
    resto druid
    resto shaman
    holydin
    shadow priest
    mage

    well both myself and the other SP are very sought after in our sarth raids. I can't answer why you're not as sought after in your guild on that fight. how can it be in my head when SP's are always at or near to the top of the damage metres. maybe I'm awesome or the rest of my guild sucks. either way I'm wanted on that fight more than most of the other dps.

  18. #58

    Re: Are SPs OP in PVE?

    TL;DR: no, shadow is not OP.

    You will see equally geared shadow priests range from 1st to 13th on the damage meters. Why? Like Affliction, Shadow has a complex rotation and Blizzard have previously stated (actual quote from GC[1]) that they tend to reward classes with complex rotations a bit extra when done right. Though generally a shadow priest is a little bit behind a true damage class. Shadow has steady damage and no real bursts. it's not very important in naxx right now, but I reckon more and more encounters will require the raid to burst down something similar to Entropius in Sunwell. Shadow doesn't do that very well in their current state. ie, you will often see a mage outdps a shadow priest by a far margin when a boss is bloodlusted/heroism at 30%.

    And about Mind Sear. note, these stats are shamelessly stolen from wowhead comments:
    Mind Sear 1060-1140 dmg, 28% base mana (1081 mana at 80), 212-228 dmg/sec, 0.9806-1.055 dmg/mana.
    Blizzard 3408 dmg, 74% base mana (2418 mana at 80), 426 dmg/sec, 1.409 dmg/mana.
    Rain of Fire 2700 dmg, 57% base mana (2197 mana at 80), 337.5 dmg/sec, 1.229 dmg/mana
    Hurricane 4510 dmg, 81% base mana (2831 mana at 80), 451 dmg/sec, 1.593 dmg/mana
    As you can see, it's quite far off from being the best aoe on paper. However, it's super mana efficient and follows target around. This is where MS excels the other aoe in real life situations. Don't forget that any shadow priest worth his own weight in gold will have a DK on focus or assist target to have his disease spread for extra aoe damage.
    My end conclusion is that some classes will always excel in some encounters, and a fight like Sartharion.3d is where a spriest shines.


    1. It has also been mentioned that Survival hunters will be a bit higher than BM if played right since it is "harder" to play, in a similar sense.

  19. #59

    Re: Are SPs OP in PVE?

    Quote Originally Posted by merrin
    ...we´re suposed to be this hybrid class with ooh so much utility yet hunters have had replenishment since 3.0 next patch mages and warlocks get it too
    This is a misunderstanding! The actual blue post said the effect was changed to replenish, similar to shadow priests. It didn't mean you got a replenishment effect like shadow priests which buffs raid. I hope this clears it up

  20. #60

    Re: Are SPs OP in PVE?

    No. Shadow Priests are not OP.

    DK's, Warrior (both hybrid too) cannot be lower then SP unless they sit on the ground or go in a series of EMO for the fun of letting the priest a chance to catch up.

    Mages are higher then the 2 mentionned above... so again way on top of SP. But that should be the case, since mages = pure dps.
    Warlocks are higher then SP too, though even if they are pure dps, they are not nearly as high as mages.

    After these 4 classes maybe hunters, but am not sure since nerfs.

    Then there are no clear winner. So being 5th highest class or 6th highest class out of 10 is not OP imo. It's fine and a good change from BC.

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