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  1. #1

    Who the hell is holy? And why?

    I have been disc for most of my time as a priest post lvl 75. I find it to be a great healing build as well as versatile in PvP and soloing. I respecced yesterday to holy thinking that I would get a better group healing build that is more useful for raids.

    What I ended up with was a completely useless build that was so mana inefficient I could barely heal the easiest heroic bosses. I respecced back to disc immediately. How is anyone a successful holy priest without spamming flash heal and CoH every time its off CD. AND i was extremely dissapointed in CoH as a whole, it is borderline useless as it only heals for around 2k.

    I want to hear from holy priests on this, how do you function without having over 1200 mana regen or spamming flash heal?

  2. #2
    Bloodsail Admiral sharpy's Avatar
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    Re: Who the hell is holy? And why?

    Flash heal is the most cast spell i also use pom a butt load and coh is just a fill in gap for every now and then.

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  3. #3

    Re: Who the hell is holy? And why?

    Don't spam flash heals. PoM, Renew, Greater Heal are, as far as I can tell, more mana efficent? (and more fun to use as well)

  4. #4

    Re: Who the hell is holy? And why?

    I don't know what your gear is like, but I rarely ever run out of mana. If I get wisdom from a pally, I can pretty much spam flash heals forever.

  5. #5

    Re: Who the hell is holy? And why?

    saying holy is inefficient is very unrealisstic. whenever i've done normal or heroic 5 mans, i can do them without having to drink more than maybe twice the entire time (barring any totally horrible groups that screw up all the time), in raids it's almost the same, altho more drinking since they require more time to complete.

    the spells i use the most, in order, are: renew,PoM, CoH, Gheal, Flash heal, binding heal.

    most of the time it goes something like this, renew tank, PoM tank, wait for a while then cast gheal or refresh renew and PoM.

    in 5 mans, when the group is taking damage toss a couple renews if its steady slow damage, CoH if 3 or more take some burst etc. regen is all about knowing when to cast and when to wait and being as efficient as possible with all heals.

  6. #6

    Re: Who the hell is holy? And why?

    Holy with subpar gear (ie, less than full epic) is a very very mana inefficient healer. You will be OOM after 12 gheals. Go discipline instead until your gear improve, but keep in mind that disc and holy itemize differently. When you have the gear and the raidbuffs, holy isn't that bad. You will still run OOM, but it won't be in 30 seconds. You will never outgrow the mana issues as holy, but you will mitigate it decently.

    CoH is healing for a very minimal amount, and won't save anyone alone. But if you have nothing but holypriests and druids in your healing team, it will be efficient. CoH will have its output increased in 3.1.

    Discipline is currently a lot more fun than holy. Holy is usually reduced to flash heal spam, using ProM on every cooldown and the odd renew thrown in for good measure. Discipline does the same, but also use PW: Shield and the all-excellent Penance. Holy is supposed to get some better mechanics in 3.1; changes to Serendipity is announced and Prayer of Healing looks like it may become a useful heal. We'll have to see how it turns out.

    However, discipline priests don't stack. Or rather, shields and divine aegis don't stack. Which means that two discpriests in a raid is like two chefs in a kitchen. Having every priest but the first one as holy will help the flow. A disc priests without damage prevention capabilities is a horribly bad healer. Tongue in cheek; the second disc priest should be replaced with a bandage rogue, at least the rogue can heal :P

    But comparing holy and disc is not straightforward. Disc is built around small fast heals and damage mitigation. Holy is built around big well-timed heals. It's just that instances aren't really holy-friendly; you really have to spam all the time. As such, you need to outgear the instances in order to work well. Or befriend a druid for innervate.

    However, holy do get access to Guardian Spirit. If you can use it, holy is a powerful healer that can singlehandedly turn a bad situation, and with gear you will be way better at general healing than a discipline priest. A holy priest can definitively heal with the best of them. But not really better, and with way less utility. Our utility is Lightwell and GS. The former is useless if your raid won't use it, the latter is useless if you don't have ninja reflexes and a lot of luck to avoid its current bugs. Holy is decent for healing, but not jawdropping. In 3.1 things will look up

    In PVP, holy is good for undergeared priests. You will die anyway if you don't have an excessive amount of resilience. Scratch, that, you will die anyway. But with resilience, you can actually make some contribution. Spirit of Redemption will guarantee you 14 seconds of contribution towards victory, and is as such our best option in PVP at the moment if undergeared.

    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

  7. #7

    Re: Who the hell is holy? And why?

    The problem is not holy, nor is dics better then holy, but you need to use diffrent kinds of healing.
    Disc is pretty much a copy of a holy pala spamming short cast heals.
    But a holy priest is trying to move around the 5sec rule by gh and stop casting.

    As you can see, what you did would be quite the same, as a a spriest speccing shadow and then complaining about the lack of holy fire. Both specs can be very nice for all parts of the game you just need to play them diffrently, and ofc there are some times where a disc would be better then a holy and the other way around.

    If you like the spamming nature of disc and the crazy mana reg that is fine, it can be very nice if you at some point find it boring you can respec, and do the same job just difrently.

    Btw I do know that the first thing about disc and holy is not 100% true but its trying to show a point so there is no reason to scream: NOOOOOOOO n00b I alsso use renew!!!

    To the op if you ever want to try holy again then try reading a few guides it can be quite fun but disc is also a great spec.

  8. #8

    Re: Who the hell is holy? And why?

    You will find that holy is harder to play with bun gear... disc is incredibly mana effecient and is built for HPS throughput so you are going to find it easier to heal as disc until you get adequete gear.

    Remember the game is balanced for end game content, if something does scale well before hand blizzard aren't really that fussed and I don't really blame them.

    Also the style of Holy and Disc is completely different and until you adjust and play each style the right way you will find difficulty with either spec and this is especially true with holy. To play holy well you want to eliminate using flash heal unless it has come from a surge of light proc or there is some need to top off players to ensure they are at full health and renew isn't an option because it needs to occur quickly. If you spec deep holy your PoM is on a 7 sec CD and you will find a large portion of your healing comming from this spell... particularly in heroics where you have dps trying to be tanks. It can be situational but overall PoM is a great spell to cast, particular when it orphans itself on a useless target. When you are tank healing you want to keep a renew on the tank at all times and utilise Gheal, with the occasional PoM... these 3 spells are your most effecent in terms of HPM and as such you need to use them primarily... bench the other spells. Also when you utlise gheal you want to aim for about 10% of the heal to be overhealing so you get mana return from serendiptiy. Lastly, CoH & Prayer of healing have their uses but in heroics it is limited. CoH can be nice to top off multiple party members while searching for a SoL proc. You are best to self target and you simply position yourself in a position that will ensure it will it all party members... they tend not to want to group, particularly pugs.

    When it boils down to it, disc will excel with mana conservation until you have adequete holy gear and it will dominate single target HPS... so in groups where your tank is very good and your dps aren't taking unnecssary random damage you will find disc superior... but holy is far more powerful for the non perfect group. It has the ability to heal multipe people quickly and it's vast array of heals are far more powerful which allows you to throw heals on multiple people a lot easier. In sapphiron where everyone takes damage I can get my priest to output something around 4.5K hps... as disc i struggle to get anything close to that but keep in mind a lot of healing is damage prevention.

    In any case both are good specs for different reasons, you just need more time to play with holy.

  9. #9

    Re: Who the hell is holy? And why?

    Disc is pretty much a copy of a holy pala spamming short cast heals.
    Right, except that holy pallys don't do that anymore. Disc seems pretty unique atm.

  10. #10

    Re: Who the hell is holy? And why?

    Learn to stopcast maybe?
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  11. #11

    Re: Who the hell is holy? And why?

    I did the opposite, lol.

    I specced disc for a naxx25 night after being holy 78-present and didn't enjoy it.

    I played a pally from vanilla to halfway through tbc, so I I prefer the holy style, myself.
    Healing Priest/Shaman

  12. #12
    greenmasheen
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    Re: Who the hell is holy? And why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wardley
    Don't spam flash heals. PoM, Renew, Greater Heal are, as far as I can tell, more mana efficent? (and more fun to use as well)
    flash heal is less HPS from what i can discipher from my own experience, although it is .8-1.0 seconds shorter to cast and also heals for 4-5000 less (@2200+ spellpower)

    you cant always use greater heal, i usually use greater heal when the tank needs a lot of healing... but i never straight cast greater heal, if you are the only healer i would suggest casting a quick flash heal, then following up with a greater heal. the same goes for casting flash heal... i will cast a Prayer of mending, then follow up with a flash heal with spike dmg.

    PW:Shield glyph is a nice addition as well.

    renew is good when someone is down 2-3000 health and i know there may be incoming dmg in the lifespan of the renew.

    if you are used to downranking spells back in the good old days when we could, you will have to get used to the changes that have been made to priest spells.

    a stop spellcast keybind is nice, or simply using your arrow keys to do that works as well.

  13. #13
    Scarab Lord AetherMcLoud's Avatar
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    Re: Who the hell is holy? And why?

    IIRC Flashheal has 94% of the HPS of Greater Heal.
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  14. #14

    Re: Who the hell is holy? And why?

    Max talented GHeal (Holy) Assuming 0% crit, 0% spellhaste and 2000 spellpower. :

    32% of base mana (3863) = 1236 mana
    3950-4950 base heal, 4450 average
    181.35% coefficient (including empowered healing)
    +10% effect from spiritual healing
    -15% manacost from improved healing => 1050 manacost

    Gheal heals for an average
    (4450 + 1.8135*2000)*1.1 = 8077
    or 7.69 HPM and 3230 HPS

    ----

    Max talented FHeal (Holy) Assuming 0% crit, 0% spellhaste and 2000 spellpower. :

    18% of base mana (3863) = 695 mana
    1887-2193 base heal, 2040 average
    90.68% coefficient (including empowered healing)
    +10% effect from spiritual healing
    -10% manacost from glyph of flash heal => 625 manacost

    Fheal heals for an average
    (2040 + 0.9068*2000)*1.1 = 4239
    or 6.78 HPM and 2825 HPS

    ----

    At 2000 spellpower
    Fheal is 12% less mana efficient than gheal. This means if you want to get more healing per mana, gheal is your friend.
    Fheal in addition heals for 13% less per second, which means that gheal is also the better spell if throughput matters.

    But you have to weigh this versus the amount of overhealing gheal does. Fheal doesn't overheal very often, and when it does, not for a lot.
    Gheal regularly overheals for quite a significant amount as it will be sniped all the time. GHeal is by far the more risky spell.

    Add more spellpower, and you will find that GHeal will scale better than FHeal.
    This will further increasing the difference in the two spells.
    But FHeal is still the spell of choice if you ask me.

    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

  15. #15

    Re: Who the hell is holy? And why?

    the *big* difference i noticed was that disc relies on effective healing while holy relies on over healing
    (read: rapture and serendipity)

    also, i agree with the op, who the hell is holy and why?
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  16. #16

    Re: Who the hell is holy? And why?

    Holy is the win. Maybe I'm just totally unused to disc (though I was disc for my arena teams), and it still feels...weird in PvE, but I find it a weak group healing spec (compared to Holy). I guess I am more of a reactive healer instead of a proactive one.

  17. #17

    Re: Who the hell is holy? And why?

    holy is amazing, i have no complaints, just gotta do the right spell at the right moment


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  18. #18

    Re: Who the hell is holy? And why?

    Personally I use the holy/disc hybrid build. I go down Disc for Imp Div spirit for the Spell power buff. In holy I get Spirit of Redemption for the spirit bonus and CoH but I skip Light well and guardian spirit, I personally never use them, and utilize the points else where. My gear is pretty good compared to anyone starting out, but there is definately room to improve. I have close to 2200SP self buffed, with good mana regen. Armory me, but I might be PvP spec, as I respec ever other day or so (im PvP at the time of this post, im respeccing in the morning for some Heroic Farming... too much gold :-/ ).
    Heres a link to my PvE spec http://www.wow-tools.org/talent-calc...00000000000000

    The key thing when healing holy is to keep renew up, keep the bubble up, keep PoM up. Flash heal when necessary, my Flash heals crit for 7k, and casts really fast. Surge of Light and Holy Concentration are amazing, use them when they proc. Greater heals cast pretty fast as well and heal for a lot if you get in a tight spot, critting for 14k+ with group buffs... 15k+ easily with raid buffs. For my spec I concentrate on spell power and spirit for the mana regen and extra healing bonus. Like the guy said before, over healing is not unusual, so seredipidty helps. I rarely use CoH, even before the nerf, Flash heals are so fast that ive never needed to spam it. I rarely run out of mana, and if they fight is unusually tough, i try to stay proactive about it, use shadowfiend before its too late, pop spirit trinket and try to get in 5 sec rule and rest. Holy is so much easier to heal IMO, plus its a lot more efficient at group healing as well. If you stay proactive and make sure everything is in the right place, you sit around a lot.

    When I hit 80 and started doing heroics I was Disc but as I got better gear holy was the way to go. So I do agree holy is more gear dependent. I heal in my Disc PvP spec from time to time as well, and I know its not a fine tuned PvE spec, but its still not nearly as easy as holy.

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  19. #19

    Re: Who the hell is holy? And why?

    Although I am not 80 on my priest, currently 68,
    But I have been holy since day one.

    I havent found it hard at all. Just have to know how to play a non healing role (aka questing or when shit hits the fan in an instance)

    I have respecced a few times (for half a lvl , twice) to try out diff specs.

    But really while levleling I able to get in a much larger range of 5mans as a healer. Currently at 68 healing 5mans such as AN, AK, Nex, Uk with ease. As well as all the top lvl (non heroic of course) BC instances. I play holy since I dont pvp much, and i rolled a priest to be a healer.
    In todays wow economy, healers are a great class to be, when i log on, i join LFG channel, type 68 Healer LFG and wihtin seconds I have many groups asking me to join.

    I have not tested out disc too much yet, since I hear that disc is really a PVP healing build.
    I occasionaly run AV or EOTS when bored , even as a holy build I can hold my own.

    It just takes a little more thought on how to handle yourself.

    Just my 2 cents.


    Touson


  20. #20

    Re: Who the hell is holy? And why?

    As it has been said, holy is not mana inneficient unless of course your use to playing a disc who has to spam smaller heals. But giving a spec 1 night of course your not going to like it, it took two weeks of being forced into it before I appreciated the uses of Guardian Spirit. Now that I don't have it (guild needed spirit, finally get GS in 3.1, yay /minidance) I rather miss it.

    As for the gear aspect, yes if you were a disc priest you were more then likely mp5/int heavy which is not what holy tend to be heavy in, we tend to be spirit/int heavy because as also stated we work around 5SR. CoH is a decent top off and in raids, at least well organized raids you arn't healing from 10% hp to full that often, Gluth aside.

    Which brings me to my next point, while Gheal is more mana/hps efficient theoretically numbers of efficieny don't count when your raid is dying. More often then not again your not healing from empty to full, or even 50% to full more often yoru topping off 80% to a 100 to ensure then next round of AoE dmg doesnt kill, combined that with the fact that you have 3 other raid healers who on their screen saw the person get dmg'd and is now throwing their heal at the person using Gheal for every heal is FAR from worth it because you will drain your mana FAR FAR faster then you can possibly keep it up, and when only 2k of a 10k heal hits and you only get 265 of 1050 mana back, its not worth it at all. Instead use a flash heal that hits for 4-7k so that when it only hits for 2k you dont feel as bad for the wasted mana.

    The instances where Gheal becomes far more relevant is on Patchwerk and in heroics, my rule in heroics generally is fheal for the dps and Gheals for the tank.

    The idea of Imp Div Spirit build right now is only useful if you heal only heroics and never do raids, or you do raids that never have a shaman, or warlock willing to lay a felhunter out.

    But if you do alot of heroics and nothing else Imp Div Spirit is great.

    Biggest thing I could say, give a spec more then one run or a day before you complain. Run some regular instances before you try it on heroics or in raids. Or if your raid group is just so OP it doesnt matter thats a good way to. But I've healed heroics and raids in both disc and holy and both I think are great. Disc is alot more fun and active you are CONSTANTLY busy, holy is a little more relaxed but its fun seeing the nice big numbers pop on the screen like 17k crit heals, or with GS 22k crit heals.

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