1. #1

    POH group heal vs blizzard raid vision

    I remember a blue post telling that one of blizzard's goal was to abolish the group vision while in a raid (dunno when exactly). So in the future we won't be member of a group which is part of a raid but simply member of a raid. I'm ok whith this no problem.

    Yet in 3.1 POH will be able to heal another any GROUP of your raid.

    If i'm happy of this change i find it pretty disturbing and it's going the opposite way they announced.

    I might have misunderstood a few things (as english is not my native langage) but i've the impression that blizzard whish to go east and then go right to the west (hoping azeroth is round like earth) and someday they effectively appear to us like coming from east.

  2. #2

    Re: POH group heal vs blizzard raid vision

    Quote Originally Posted by Madarzo
    I remember a blue post telling that one of blizzard's goal was to abolish the group vision while in a raid (dunno when exactly). So in the future we won't be member of a group which is part of a raid but simply member of a raid. I'm ok whith this no problem.

    Yet in 3.1 POH will be able to heal another any GROUP of your raid.

    If i'm happy of this change i find it pretty disturbing and it's going the opposite way they announced.

    I might have misunderstood a few things (as english is not my native langage) but i've the impression that blizzard whish to go east and then go right to the west (hoping azeroth is round like earth) and someday they effectively appear to us like coming from east.
    There are still quite a few "group spells" out there, unfortunately. Although, as it stands now, if Prayer simply became a Shaman's Chain Heal, quite a few things would have to change to put in on par, but hey I'm actually happy with this. It's a step in the right direction for Priests. Baby step, but a step nonetheless.
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  3. #3

    Re: POH group heal vs blizzard raid vision

    I'm fine with the change; however, as the OP said, Blizzard has stated that they are trying to get rid of a 5 person group in a raid. When you're in a raid you're in a 10 person or 25 person group. This doesn't go along with that thought process. If you're not going to implement changes along with what you say you value, then don't say you value those things.

  4. #4

    Re: POH group heal vs blizzard raid vision

    Perhaps in the future PoH will become a smart heal aswell.. just with a casttime and bigger manacost then CoH

  5. #5

    Re: POH group heal vs blizzard raid vision

    Quote Originally Posted by heriana
    I'm fine with the change; however, as the OP said, Blizzard has stated that they are trying to get rid of a 5 person group in a raid. When you're in a raid you're in a 10 person or 25 person group. This doesn't go along with that thought process. If you're not going to implement changes along with what you say you value, then don't say you value those things.
    Vampiric Embrace, Mana Spring, Healing Stream, Mana Tide, Hymn of Hopelessness, Divine Hymn, Holy Nova, Tranquility; need I continue? There are some spells in their current set up that would become too powerful if they suddenly just went raid-wide (even if a couple are a joke right now).

    And yes, they are implementing changes, but not without more changes. Quit your griping and realise that this is still a buff
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  6. #6

    Re: POH group heal vs blizzard raid vision

    I kind of thought that the reasoning behind this was the same as reflective shield only working for the priest and psychic scream not getting changed to a horror effect...

    To hard to code.

    If PoH was raid wide, but still used the radius around the priest, it would still be less effective than CoH and CH, as these have ranges to them while PoH would require positioning on the part of the priest.

  7. #7

    Re: POH group heal vs blizzard raid vision

    i have already said i'm happy and i totaly agree it's a buff.
    I never said going over the five man group in a raid was easy, yes there is much spell that need to be reworked.

    However that not a reason to add more work to this by pouring ciment into the five man mud.

  8. #8

    Re: POH group heal vs blizzard raid vision

    Even tho this change would go against their ideas about not needing a specific groupsetup in raids, as mentionned already there are quite a few spells that still require this.
    The difference with PoH is that we can choose which group gets it, and that PoH has a huge range, so melee and ranged in 1 group would most likely all get healed anyways.
    Anyways, im happy with this change, curious about casttime reduction from Serendipity tho

  9. #9

    Re: POH group heal vs blizzard raid vision

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti
    Vampiric Embrace, Mana Spring, Healing Stream, Mana Tide, Hymn of Hopelessness, Divine Hymn, Holy Nova, Tranquility; need I continue? There are some spells in their current set up that would become too powerful if they suddenly just went raid-wide (even if a couple are a joke right now).

    And yes, they are implementing changes, but not without more changes. Quit your griping and realise that this is still a buff
    It isn't about buffs or nerfs, its about the point of priests. Putting a slow casting (targetable) group heal in after they claim that they're moving away from groups in raids is silly, just like they claim to "squash random stuns" after leaving some of the oldest talents with zero tweaks in the game (blackout) that classes rely on while adding new random stuns to classes and leaving them alone (hunters).

    Currently POH's casttime is too slow for it to make much impact on priest healing at all except for possibly 10 man raids. Snore. Shaman are fine for AE healing 10 mans.

    VE sucks. Holy nova is way too expensive for what it does. Divine Hymn sucks. I don't care about what other classes have, I care that priests have a ton of group-based spells that are useless and this is basically adding to that pile.

  10. #10

    Re: POH group heal vs blizzard raid vision

    Quote Originally Posted by frott
    It isn't about buffs or nerfs, its about the point of priests. Putting a slow casting (targetable) group heal in after they claim that they're moving away from groups in raids is silly, just like they claim to "squash random stuns" after leaving some of the oldest talents with zero tweaks in the game (blackout) that classes rely on while adding new random stuns to classes and leaving them alone (hunters).

    Currently POH's casttime is too slow for it to make much impact on priest healing at all except for possibly 10 man raids. Snore. Shaman are fine for AE healing 10 mans.

    VE sucks. Holy nova is way too expensive for what it does. Divine Hymn sucks. I don't care about what other classes have, I care that priests have a ton of group-based spells that are useless and this is basically adding to that pile.
    /clap

  11. #11

    Re: POH group heal vs blizzard raid vision

    Problem is, you cannot really move away from group only spells that easily.

    One of the key things blizzard wanted to fix in WOTLK were the grouping issues. CoH pretty much ensured that G1+G2 in any raid setup would be all-melee. You didn't bring more or less melee, because that extra meleer or the odd huntard in the melee group would be damned hard to heal if you were priest heavy. It was actually costing people raidspots. CoH was effectively hindering the fix for grouping issues.

    So they made it smart. It didn't work out, and they added a cooldown instead of doing what most priests (myself included) though was a good idea - reverting the smartness. As a result, priests are now a very strong healer for healing their own group, but pretty weak in healing out of their own group. But reinstating the group only healing for CoH would give melee vs ranged a problem in terms of healing. And blizzard apparently felt it easier to sacrifice the priest in this dilemma. We can still heal, but I'd like to find a priest who find it easy to guarantee that noone die when a bunch of out-of-party peeps go low in HP.

    So we have two AoE spells currently affecting our wown group.

    Holy Nova is basically the same spell as CoH, but only your own group, and centered around yourself. Lots of priests find it very useful, i'm personally having slight doubts in that department. But I do find it a good attack spell. You can't make HN group targettable, because that would make it too similar to the old CoH. And that would mean the "bring the player, not the class" criteria is taking a hit. You cannot make it smart, because then you are pretty much recreating CoH. So - Holy Nova stays the way it is until they figure out what to do with it. Fine, priests can't use the spell for healing effectively, that would be too good. So we get the shaft in this department. It's an attack spell anyway.

    PoH is like a nuclear bomb of healing. Your group gets healed; the downsides is the very long casttime and a hefty casting cost. It's further restricted by only affecting your own party, making it a bit of a rare chance spell to cast. I personally only really use it regularly on Loatheb. It is occasionally useful on Malygos. Everywhere else, PoH is just too damned slow, and should it be useful anyway, it's usually the meleers who get hit. I'm not in the melee group. It would see much more use if you actually could cast it on the melee group. And that's basically what Blizzard is fixing in 3.1.0. You cannot make it smart, because that would be too powerful and put all shammies out of a job. But you can make it targettable. Because the groupwide healing is not something you see a lot, and thus the spell isn't spammable even if you could afford it. So making this targettable is not a problem. The rather huge radius for PoH will also make it usable for healing those mixed groups.

    Most abilities in the game is now raidwide. The major exception is almost all multitarget priest abilities, and some shaman totems (and tranquility). It's a priest problem more than anything else.

    There are some things one can do with our AoE Spells though.

    Hymn of Hopelessness: If you want it to be a mana battery spell, make it target the 5 players with the lowest mana in range. Now it's raidwide. I don't see much of a problem making this smart. But maybe blizzard does. Really depends on whether the new 3.1 version is worth casting or not.

    Holy Nova: make it stop being a healing spell alltogether. Or limit it to aoedamage+self-healing only. Big nerf for those using the spell, but solves the problem. Aren't you glad blizzard didn't do this?

    Vampiric Embrace: Can't be made smart as that's too good, but you could just make it heal the 5 nearest people to the shadowpriest. Still raidwide, just smart in a different way.

    Prayer of Healing: You can also make this target the 5 nearest players to your target. Or yourself if you presume it's self-centered still. Very hard to control who gets the healing, but it does make it raidwide. Still, this approach is a nerf as it makes poH much harder to use. So I'm glad they didn't do this either

    --

    If you do come up with a brilliant solution for the problem, then that would bring the world forward. But until then, I'm happy PoH got targettable. It's better, but it's not a perfect fix. Seeing how a perfect fix won't come until much much MUCH later, I'll take the band-aid and be happy
    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

  12. #12

    Re: POH group heal vs blizzard raid vision

    Actually, making VE heal the 5 players with the lowest health would not be completely overpowered, considering that Blood Presence heals everyone for 4% of the damage they do, and Blood Presence is passive as opposed to having to be applied like VE.
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  13. #13

    Re: POH group heal vs blizzard raid vision

    Quote Originally Posted by frott
    Currently POH's casttime is too slow for it to make much impact on priest healing at all except for possibly 10 man raids. Snore.
    You are just wrong.

    Pointing out a few fights where PoH is powerful: Loatheb obviously, Kel Thuzad timed with the AoE FroBos, Sapphiron obviously (put PoM and CoH into some other group instead...), Sarth+3 (ever been in a group with 4 tanks that consistently take dmg and fired a glyphed PoH?), heck, even malygos after touchdown and during deep breath!

    Just because you are not capable to plan 3 seconds in advance does not make PoH a bad spell. But I bet you are one of those people who went discipline because "Greater Heal takes to long to cast"...

  14. #14

    Re: POH group heal vs blizzard raid vision

    Hey.. danner..


    You do realize that Holy nova has a glyph that increases the healing done by 40%? Thats why priests think its good :P

  15. #15

    Re: POH group heal vs blizzard raid vision

    Quote Originally Posted by dionadar
    You are just wrong.

    Pointing out a few fights where PoH is powerful: Loatheb obviously, Kel Thuzad timed with the AoE FroBos, Sapphiron obviously (put PoM and CoH into some other group instead...), Sarth+3 (ever been in a group with 4 tanks that consistently take dmg and fired a glyphed PoH?), heck, even malygos after touchdown and during deep breath!

    Just because you are not capable to plan 3 seconds in advance does not make PoH a bad spell. But I bet you are one of those people who went discipline because "Greater Heal takes to long to cast"...
    Changing POH to targetable group is a snore. I've cleared all raid content and used POH for loatheb. 1 fight. Back when 5 mans were relevant to me, COH was in game. I tried out disc and it was a joke compared to COH / POH glyphed on 5 mans.

    The point remains that you *can* use it but it isn't necessary at all.

    25 mans have never commanded POH, and never will. Moving POH back to where COH was before it was changed is a step in the wrong direction. As was posted previously blizzard is moving AWAY FROM GROUP SPELLS, because they don't want slots organized based on melee group vs caster group like they were before they changed COH and essentially dissolved the concept of melee groups.


    Do you really use a priest in a 4 tank group for 3 drakes for that? First off, we only need 3 tanks, and secondly the damage is so uneven that casting POH with any frequency would be a waste. You'd only ever be hitting 3 targets max and they're not necessarily the ones that need the healing. Great idea.


    No idea why you're bothering to make claims about who or what I am, it only sounds like you need to because your argument is a waste of time. My guild doesn't use priests as main healers, we don't push penance or greater heal, because its grossly inefficient compared to paladin direct healing. That means we don't press greater heal or penance. I'm sure it will matter as soon as the paladin glyphs change. ROLLEYES.

    The bottom line is that POH castable on other groups would dictate organizing raids by group again, which has been clearly posted is not blizz's direction. Since it is not blizz's direction and doing that based on current content is dubious at best and sounds like useless overhealing fodder, I'm going to remain not thrilled about targetable POH.

    I guess if you were a COH spammer it is a godsend because it will fill in the gaps between COH instead of renews/mendings/shields or the occasional flash. Snore.

    Holy Nova is basically the same spell as CoH, but only your own group, and centered around yourself. Lots of priests find it very useful, i'm personally having slight doubts in that department. But I do find it a good attack spell. You can't make HN group targettable, because that would make it too similar to the old CoH. And that would mean the "bring the player, not the class" criteria is taking a hit. You cannot make it smart, because then you are pretty much recreating CoH. So - Holy Nova stays the way it is until they figure out what to do with it. Fine, priests can't use the spell for healing effectively, that would be too good. So we get the shaft in this department. It's an attack spell anyway.
    Hi, in PVP it is your only instant healing spell as disc spec.

  16. #16

    Re: POH group heal vs blizzard raid vision

    Quote Originally Posted by Nilinor
    You do realize that Holy nova has a glyph that increases the healing done by 40%? Thats why priests think its good :P
    Yeah, I know. It's like a limited pre-nerf CoH with the glyph. But between the short range, self-centered only, high manacost and inability to heal outside my own group - not to mention the fact that I actually like having an aoe attack spell, the spell is not a heal for me

    It's a personal preference thing, really, and as such the glyph is a huge success. If anything, I'd like to have more glyphs that gave serious playstyle choices like this.
    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

  17. #17

    Re: POH group heal vs blizzard raid vision

    Not sure if this has been posted in here or not but lets take a look:

    "I remember a blue post telling that one of blizzard's goal was to abolish the group vision while in a raid (dunno when exactly). So in the future we won't be member of a group which is part of a raid but simply member of a raid. I'm ok whith this no problem.

    Yet in 3.1 POH will be able to heal another any GROUP of your raid.

    If i'm happy of this change i find it pretty disturbing and it's going the opposite way they announced.



    from what you posted. They are doing what they set out to do. By being able to PoH another "Group" in your raid, you are infact being able to POH your RAID, which falls under NOT A GROUP but "simply member of a raid"

    You know what i mean?

  18. #18

    Re: POH group heal vs blizzard raid vision

    Quote Originally Posted by Gogandantes
    from what you posted. They are doing what they set out to do. By being able to PoH another "Group" in your raid, you are infact being able to POH your RAID, which falls under NOT A GROUP but "simply member of a raid"

    You know what i mean?
    As has already been mention have a heal that targets a group dictates where people are placed in the raid. While you are correct that it is a step towards less group centric(since its no longer limited to your group), it is also a step backwards because it causes all the melee to be put into the same group(since melee often take the same aoe damage). Personally I would have prefered they implement it as a smart target aoe heal like CoH except with a cast time, higher hps, and higher hpm. This would mirror the flash heal / greater heal relationship but in a AoE sense.

  19. #19

    Re: POH group heal vs blizzard raid vision

    (my) PoH on one target = ~4k healing done for 1854 mana = roughly 2 hpm and 1600 hps (no haste included)
    which leads to --> PoH on a full party= ~20k healing done (assuming there is no overhealing) for 1854 mana = roughly 10 hpm and 8000 hps

    now this only happens in rare occasions (with it only being self-group) like sapphiron and *maybe* on sartharion in the twilight world but i'd call that pretty sick numbers



    and making that raidwise would most likely make priests mandatory if they tune the upcoming instances after that change

    i'm not CoH btw

    (this post is silly and should be checked by me tomorrow when i'm not tired, TYVM)
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  20. #20
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    Re: POH group heal vs blizzard raid vision

    I was very excited we will have another grouphealing spell, and as powerful as PoH! So, I went to Naxx with intentions to use PoH as much as possible yesterday.

    As it only affect my group atm, I couldn't use it as much as I wanted to ofc, but whenever it seemed resonable i did. Results were pretty good! Some fights were 30% of effective healing from PoH. The very sad thing was that overall, PoH gave incredible overhealing, just as I expected. Hey, it is a 3 sec cast spell and even if you do know how to precast for better results, all other healers have faster spells.

    Looking at effectiveness, CoH and PoM is still better hpm then PoH. With the new mana nerfs, I hope they do something with PoH to make it a useable spell. otherwise it's a heal that mostly wastes your mana, but ofc, make your healing output rly nice, even tho much is overhealing.

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