Thread: Gearing for TPS

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  1. #21

    Re: Gearing for TPS

    @Saram:

    I prefer FS/IT/DnD glyph's.

    DnD is going to be used often because you are tanking more trash per run than bosses.

    Obliterate dmg does not add up...it may look like it's better than HB because you are using it 2 times every rotation and excluding HB completely other than Rime procs...so yes, doing it that way would make HB look terrible. You are also going out of your way to make Obliterate good...whereas HB is good alone...without that sigil and glyph IT will crit just as often as Obliterate...costs 1 rune instead of 2...and does almost the same damage as an unglyph'd/sigil'd Obliterate...all the while generating the same amount of RP for half the rune cost and allowing more chances for Rime to proc which will in turn free up the use of an Obliterate.

    With your rotation you are spending KM procs on IT or FS...both of which do less dmg than HB.

    To use Obliterate Sigil means giving up SotUK which means losing avoidance to gain tps that isn't really needed...the 11def skill from sigil is .44% to dodge/parry/miss or 1.32% combined avoidance (before DR).

    Saying the tps from HB is erratic due to hit cap doesn't help your argument either...Unless you are expertise capped for Dodge and Parry your Obliterate has a higher chance of causing no threat than HB does...with buffs/debuffs it's easy for a tank to hit a 12% or so hit rate on spells (without virulence) leaving a 5% miss chance compared to Obliterate's dodge/parry/block chance which is much much higher, causing more erratic tps than HB.

    Relying on KM for HB procs is still a non-issue...I would rather have a guaranteed crit, that requires far less gear, than a RNG based crit that requires several pieces of non-tank oriented gear.

    If your tps is enough to overcome your dps'ers threat then the next logical step is to increase your survivability by any means...not taking an avoidance sigil is a mistake imo.

    By the same token of swapping gear/glyph's to improve an ability...why not swap trinkets for Mirror instead of spending wasted points...or use some dps rings...you wouldn't do those things because you would be losing valuable tanking stats...well you're losing valuable tanking stats by not using the sigil..and losing higher AE tps by not using DnD.

  2. #22

    Re: Gearing for TPS

    Hit cap really isn't an issue for tanks. You do not need to be spell hit capped for HB since even at my crappy 7% chance to hit it means i still only have like a 7% chance to miss on my HB's. Missing 1 HB every blue moon is going to do nothing to my threat, the only thing hit is super important for is maximizing your dps. And Sure KM goes through dry spells at times, but it's not like you have completely removed OB from your bars. I use an equal amount of OB's and HB's since HB has a cd. 2xHB and 2xOB every 2 rune rotations. I don't heavily rely on one or the other since the cd on HB will make this a moot factor, you cannot completely replace HB with OB. However HB hits harder than OB (except in the cases of having a betrayer, sigil, and mob is armor debuffed) so with KM i do a lot more damage over all with HB than i do with OB.

    clicky for armory

  3. #23
    Deleted

    Re: Gearing for TPS

    Quote Originally Posted by Gomexus
    Obliterate dmg does not add up...it may look like it's better than HB because you are using it 2 times every rotation and excluding HB completely other than Rime procs...so yes, doing it that way would make HB look terrible.
    I'm basing it on the fact that when I press obliterate, it hits harder than howling blast. I'm not looking at a TPS breakdown and thinking because my 50 obliterates did 50,000 threat and my 2 howling blasts did 5,000 oblit must be better.
    You are also going out of your way to make Obliterate good...whereas HB is good alone...without that sigil and glyph IT will crit just as often as Obliterate...costs 1 rune instead of 2...and does almost the same damage as an unglyph'd/sigil'd Obliterate
    Well, no, it doesn't crit as often. On top of IT, Obliterate gains 9% from subversion, 3% from annihilation and whatever crit rate you get from agility. I assume when you say IT hits harder than obliterate, you mean damage per rune? If your single ITs are hitting harder than your single obliterates, your gear is weird. IT is more damage per rune, but you only have 3 frost runes per rotation. It's better to use 2 oblits and an IT over 3 ITs and ignore your unholy runes.

    With your rotation you are spending KM procs on IT or FS...both of which do less dmg than HB.
    Actually, the difference between HB and FS is quite minor. Also, whilst you rely on KM to make HB do non-shit threat, Oblit has a 50% chance to do non-shit threat at all times. Lets assume you get your KM proc, and assume HB and OB do the same damage. You use HB and FS, I use Ob and FS.

    Me: Oblit has a 50% chance to crit, Frost Strike uses the KM and has a 100% chance.
    You: HB uses the KM and has a 100% chance to crit, Frost Strike has a 15% chance to crit.

    To use Obliterate Sigil means giving up SotUK which means losing avoidance to gain tps that isn't really needed...the 11def skill from sigil is .44% to dodge/parry/miss or 1.32% combined avoidance (before DR).
    Thread Title
    Saying the tps from HB is erratic due to hit cap doesn't help your argument either...Unless you are expertise capped for Dodge and Parry your Obliterate has a higher chance of causing no threat than HB does...with buffs/debuffs it's easy for a tank to hit a 12% or so hit rate on spells (without virulence) leaving a 5% miss chance compared to Obliterate's dodge/parry/block chance which is much much higher, causing more erratic tps than HB.
    I am an orc with an axe so my expertise is higher than most and I don't raid with squids. I get parried about 3% of the time, I miss around 6% without virulence. HB also has a cooldown so failed attacks are more detrimental with it.
    If your tps is enough to overcome your dps'ers threat then the next logical step is to increase your survivability by any means...not taking an avoidance sigil is a mistake imo.

    By the same token of swapping gear/glyph's to improve an ability...why not swap trinkets for Mirror instead of spending wasted points...or use some dps rings...you wouldn't do those things because you would be losing valuable tanking stats...well you're losing valuable tanking stats by not using the sigil..and losing higher AE tps by not using DnD.
    Thread Title. Also, I actually do use DPS gear over tanking gear; I use BoH over ID, Awareness over Def and even use a couple of 7.5 DPS items when trying for speed kills. In the current content, when you have warlocks doing stupid TPS and 5 bored healers, threat is a bit more useful that mitigation. Aside from the fact this thread is also about improving TPS, and the fact that obliterate still does more damage with a 213 weapon and different sigil.

  4. #24

    Re: Gearing for TPS

    Oh wow! There are other Frost tanks that have a clue.
    <3 Saram

  5. #25

    Re: Gearing for TPS

    Quote Originally Posted by Gomexus
    @Saram:

    I prefer FS/IT/DnD glyph's.

    DnD is going to be used often because you are tanking more trash per run than bosses.

    Obliterate dmg does not add up...it may look like it's better than HB because you are using it 2 times every rotation and excluding HB completely other than Rime procs...so yes, doing it that way would make HB look terrible. You are also going out of your way to make Obliterate good...whereas HB is good alone...without that sigil and glyph IT will crit just as often as Obliterate...costs 1 rune instead of 2...and does almost the same damage as an unglyph'd/sigil'd Obliterate...all the while generating the same amount of RP for half the rune cost and allowing more chances for Rime to proc which will in turn free up the use of an Obliterate.

    With your rotation you are spending KM procs on IT or FS...both of which do less dmg than HB.

    To use Obliterate Sigil means giving up SotUK which means losing avoidance to gain tps that isn't really needed...the 11def skill from sigil is .44% to dodge/parry/miss or 1.32% combined avoidance (before DR).

    Saying the tps from HB is erratic due to hit cap doesn't help your argument either...Unless you are expertise capped for Dodge and Parry your Obliterate has a higher chance of causing no threat than HB does...with buffs/debuffs it's easy for a tank to hit a 12% or so hit rate on spells (without virulence) leaving a 5% miss chance compared to Obliterate's dodge/parry/block chance which is much much higher, causing more erratic tps than HB.

    Relying on KM for HB procs is still a non-issue...I would rather have a guaranteed crit, that requires far less gear, than a RNG based crit that requires several pieces of non-tank oriented gear.

    If your tps is enough to overcome your dps'ers threat then the next logical step is to increase your survivability by any means...not taking an avoidance sigil is a mistake imo.

    By the same token of swapping gear/glyph's to improve an ability...why not swap trinkets for Mirror instead of spending wasted points...or use some dps rings...you wouldn't do those things because you would be losing valuable tanking stats...well you're losing valuable tanking stats by not using the sigil..and losing higher AE tps by not using DnD.
    First, I wanted to add that howling blast not only hits harder, it also does more damage to multiple mobs--giving it even more power than OB to hold onto multiple mob aggro and generating high overall damage.

    Gomexus,

    I can tell from your posts you know what you are doing as a frost tank. I wanted to ask you as a new frost tank (formerly DPS..lol), what my rotation should be. I'm thinking with points in morbity and a DND glyph, DND is the opener with each pull due to sped up cooldown and the extra tps from the glyph. So here is what I'm thinking:

    DND-IT-PS-PEST/BS- ......... from here I dont know maybe a FS or a freezing fog HB. Is this similar to what you use as a basic rotation?

  6. #26
    Deleted

    Re: Gearing for TPS

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorynn
    First, I wanted to add that howling blast not only hits harder, it also does more damage to multiple mobs--giving it even more power than OB to hold onto multiple mob aggro and generating high overall damage.

    Gomexus,

    I can tell from your posts you know what you are doing as a frost tank. I wanted to ask you as a new frost tank (formerly DPS..lol), what my rotation should be. I'm thinking with points in morbity and a DND glyph, DND is the opener with each pull due to sped up cooldown and the extra tps from the glyph. So here is what I'm thinking:

    DND-IT-PS-PEST/BS- ......... from here I dont know maybe a FS or a freezing fog HB. Is this similar to what you use as a basic rotation?
    I'd like to see your WWS with a 2h weapon doing less damage with obliterate than with Howling Blast in a deep frost spec. AoE threat is about as relevant to this as the mating habits of killer bees, but for clearing trash, I find putting follow on a healer, going afk and letting paladins do it to be the best way, but if your raid insists:

    IT > Pest > HB > (Switch Target) > PS > Pest

    If for some insane reason you have morbidity as a frost tank and can use DnD every pull,

    DnD > Blood tap > IT > Pest > HB

    Or without blood tap,

    DnD > PS > IT > Pest

  7. #27

    Re: Gearing for TPS

    The entire "OB > HB" debate is dependent on raid buffs/debuffs.

    In 10 mans, it's rare for me that OB is better than HB. That means all physical buffs/debuffs are present. In 25 mans OB is noticeably better than HB, but it's still not a large margin even in 25 mans.

    The main reason to use HB for me is that OB doesn't benefit from KM, which procs insanely often now. Pre patch OB was better because of its crit rate, post patch the situation has reversed now that HB crits 50%+ with KM. I reserve my RP for RS, so there are not that many FS opportunities for KM.

  8. #28

    Re: Gearing for TPS

    Quote Originally Posted by Saram
    I'd like to see your WWS with a 2h weapon doing less damage with obliterate than with Howling Blast in a deep frost spec. AoE threat is about as relevant to this as the mating habits of killer bees, but for clearing trash, I find putting follow on a healer, going afk and letting paladins do it to be the best way, but if your raid insists:
    I have been dps in groups where a paladin/war/druid cannot keep aggro on multiple mobs when I AOE despite their every attempt, their ridiculus gear, and their rich 25 man experience. The only class that can keep AOE aggro away from me consistently is a DK tank. In fact, it's the only class I would trust implicitly to keep a wipe from occuring due to a grp stray facerolling me or our healer. I'm sure you are quite aware that wipes can occur during "trash" clearing. And if the damage is greater overall anyways, which as I have found out recently, about 2.5k to 3k dps as a TANK, I'm not so sure you can throw mitigiation in there with a OB here a OB there to not only keep aggro as well but still DPS as hard--A HB rotation is much better in this regard and still much better overall IMO.


  9. #29

    Re: Gearing for TPS

    Week old thread getting re-hashed!

    Basically the bottom line reason I use HB instead of Obliterate is that it is a spell and not a melee attack.

    As long as Obliterate can be dodged/parried/blocked it just will not outdamage HB in the long run, depsite it's higher base crit chance and if glyph'd/sigil'd higher damage.

    If your Obliterate hits for 400 more damage than your HB on a single target that's great! But until you are running 26 expertise your Obliterate can still be dodged...furthermore it will still have a 10% or so chance to be parried even with 26 expertise...along with the chance for it to be blocked which reduces its damage...or if a sunder stack falls off because your dps warrior was busy spamming whirlwind and didn't notice.

    HB get's boosted by CoE/EP and Razor Ice if you have a DW DK with you...requires no expertise to land it...and even when not melee hit capped has a smaller chance to miss than Obliterate does to be dodged/parried.

    I realize the thread title is about gearing for TPS...I'm not arguing about gear I'm arguing about using inferior abilities to attempt to produce threat.

    I'm not talking about the first 2-3 seconds of the fight threat...I'm talking about 2-3mins of sustained dps/tps and how HB is a much more reliable source than HB is. Using 3x IT + HB every other rotation is more RP, more threat, and more consistent damage...and to get super technicaly it leaves a 10+second gap where no parry hasting can occur through specials...meaning only your 3-4 melee swings have a chance to be parried.

    By using dps gear to increase Obliterate further demeans threat generation by taking away avoidance...which takes away RS chances and doesn't necessarily make a huge impact on overall dps...dropping 5% avoidance for a 200dps increase isn't worth it...especialy when it takes away nearly 5% of your RS chances, which would have done just as much dps and more tps than hitting a little harder with Obliterate/BS/PS/FS.


    IT, HB, DnD, FS, RS are all huge tps because of their inability to be dodged or parried or blocked...regardless of how hard they hit, you know when you push the button that there is a 95% chance they will hit, and hit for full damage, instead of a 70% chance to hit and alot of those hits being mitigated by block.

  10. #30

    Re: Gearing for TPS

    tbh if i had a betrayer and sigil i would prolly focus more on OB, but alas...Saram with your level of gear if you should try out a HB centered build like mine the 10/54/7, and compare the numbers you get compared to your OB centered one. Would be interesting to see number comparisons since i can't really do it as my gear doesn't merit a worthy test of OB (it hits like shit haha). Your raid shouldn't have any problems as the hb+km centered build really pumps out a shit ton of threat so you shouldn't lose agro. Would be interesting to see over all dps, and average tps between the two.

    My armory is outdated since i'm too busy to play atm so it's still in a pvp spec. This is the tank spec i normally use:
    http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0EZGxxzhed0GoVssx0g

    You can shuffle around a few points, i prefer acclimation due to extra mitigation, endless winter though really isn't needed in 25 mans as you'll never really be on interrupt duty as a tank, i have it more for 10 man stuff.

    clicky for armory

  11. #31

    Re: Gearing for TPS

    Single target or AoE?


    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-t...ckrock&n=Ickis


    Very happy with my single target threat in this spec and I gem for Hit/Expertise for the most part


    DnD is going to be used often because you are tanking more trash per run than bosses.
    AoE in my spec isn't great but still enough to hold threat in 25man raid,Only downside is if Pat comes in and death n Decay is on cooldown...but thats what the Unholy DK & Paladin Offtanks are for heh...

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