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  1. #41

    Re: Tailoring in 3.1?

    Quote Originally Posted by zuxia
    It does not proc off dots. I understand how haste works ty very much. The second thread was put there if you wanted to look at another class opinion also. I did a quick check for information and posted accordingly.

    If you want more information, I suggest you go look at elistestjerks.com.

    Have I discussed anything but direct damage spell casters..nope. SO maybe you should stick to that instead of throwing everything in, which you are know to do, which does make alot of your "ideas" invalid and I have shown time and time again with you that you add things that are not there or I have not disputed. Just to prove a point I quote myself "PVE..sorry but lightweave is better for direct damage casters versus 23 haste."

    Couple posts back.

    Edit: some spelling
    Edit: As someone else has already stated go to maxdps.com in addition to elistjerks.com
    Also go look at the various classes and specs if you want to argue the point. From a clothie/Lock class..I say class because that is where, regardless of spec (until 3.1), lightweave is better for the class versus haste.

    If you want to go argue with the versed theorycrafters on the warlock forums about their math, be my guest.
    if you understand haste, how do you explain
    I can only think of one spell where it would help an AOE, but the AOE is result of release of the dot and that is warlock seed, I should have stated haste does not benefit channeled aoe spells or instant aoe spells for better clarification.
    in direct response to someone saying AOE spells benefit from haste.

    this suggests that you have no clue about neither the gcd aspect of haste nor the channeld effect.
    if you did , youd KNOWN that writing this would be falacious.
    stop lying. always with the "thats not what i wrote" i know better attitude. watch what you write, dont be wrong that often, and maybe people wouldnt need to disect your posts!

    additionaly, i asked for relevant links, because i couldnt find something REALY definitive on elitist. there where some numbers thrown in the room, but neither major testing, and some of the numbers where (partly aknowledge by at least one source) actualy "off"

    you provide me with two IRRELEVANT ones , one absolutly useless and the otherone with faulty theoraycraft, and but the burden back on me again?

    i thought you had passed your BA? is that what "providing sources" is like in your education?
    if you have all the great sources for the disection of the comparision of both enchants, put em up, i cant tell you where you went wrong unless you ARGUE your case, instead of citing invisible sources and caliming "because".

    what do you want? me finding YOUR sources? tried that, didnt yeald sufficient data. proving the absence of your sources is actualy not practicable, i wont copy paste every tidbit i found about this and tell you why its not relevant, i did so with the two links you provided.
    if you do not understand the concept of providing sources to your claim, pls stop posting.

    Since this is a thread about the viability of tailoring, you yourself moved the goalpost by arguing that ANY improvment between haste and lightweave is of any relevance here.

    your argument is falacious. especialy the wording.
    yeah lightweave is better, but it isnt "per definition" its based on the gear/spec/encounter. and the increase in dps is arguable (and IS argued alot).
    in alot of the threads i encountered wrong numbers were supplied by people like you, who convey halftruths to make a point.

    citing 90-100 dps for lightweave is falacious and mostly directed towards encounters with atypical abilitys, and is likely followed up by a mathtrick comparing "%tal increase" of haste vs an absolut dps increase for lightweave. (since on +damage bosses haste's %tual influence on your dps is still linear, but due to the enhanced DPS the dps effect of haste is AS enhanced as lightweaves dps (both by the factor of the bosses ability).

    lightweave IS unarguably more effective in movement intensive fights where running = lesscasts / ~47 secs (2 secs for mean time of reproc)

    lightweave may be partialy better than haste, but its ONLY better in one on one comparision, which is undoubtedly of actualy NO CONCERN to this topic.
    and actualy its irelevant anyway.

    because a player who STAYS tailor, and is using the haste enchant needs to be dragged out and shot. the comparision HAS to be haste + decent proffession, and the effect is already measurably higher than the difference between "FAIR" lightweave/haste comps.

    so for the purpose of this thread.
    lightweave might be an increase for you, depending on your gear and the encoutners you play, arguably better for some casters than others, but this effect is miniscule (and thus ignorable) to the alternatives.

    your complete argument HAS to be along the line of "mh , lighweave is alot better than haste, and although other jobs are better, its only marginaly"
    otherwise why did you even JOIN this thread.

  2. #42

    Re: Tailoring in 3.1?

    I have been to EJ forums and searched lightweave in every single DPS caster thread. Many people have asked this question and many of the top theorycrafters over there have made conflicting post over time. I think you are biased by the Lock thread. In most cases the answer to this question is, go to Rawr with your specific build and gear and test it. IT IS NOT CLEAR CUT. THAT is the point here. Tailoring offers little benefit and even that is debatable, currently, I am hoping for more from 3.1.

  3. #43

    Re: Tailoring in 3.1?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pansa
    if you understand haste, how do you explain in direct response to someone saying AOE spells benefit from haste.

    this suggests that you have no clue about neither the gcd aspect of haste nor the channeld effect.
    if you did , youd KNOWN that writing this would be falacious.
    stop lying. always with the "thats not what i wrote" i know better attitude. watch what you write, dont be wrong that often, and maybe people wouldnt need to disect your posts!

    additionaly, i asked for relevant links, because i couldnt find something REALY definitive on elitist. there where some numbers thrown in the room, but neither major testing, and some of the numbers where (partly aknowledge by at least one source) actualy "off"

    you provide me with two IRRELEVANT ones , one absolutly useless and the otherone with faulty theoraycraft, and but the burden back on me again?

    i thought you had passed your BA? is that what "providing sources" is like in your education?
    if you have all the great sources for the disection of the comparision of both enchants, put em up, i cant tell you where you went wrong unless you ARGUE your case, instead of citing invisible sources and caliming "because".

    what do you want? me finding YOUR sources? tried that, didnt yeald sufficient data. proving the absence of your sources is actualy not practicable, i wont copy paste every tidbit i found about this and tell you why its not relevant, i did so with the two links you provided.
    if you do not understand the concept of providing sources to your claim, pls stop posting.

    Since this is a thread about the viability of tailoring, you yourself moved the goalpost by arguing that ANY improvment between haste and lightweave is of any relevance here.

    your argument is falacious. especialy the wording.
    yeah lightweave is better, but it isnt "per definition" its based on the gear/spec/encounter. and the increase in dps is arguable (and IS argued alot).
    in alot of the threads i encountered wrong numbers were supplied by people like you, who convey halftruths to make a point.

    citing 90-100 dps for lightweave is falacious and mostly directed towards encounters with atypical abilitys, and is likely followed up by a mathtrick comparing "%tal increase" of haste vs an absolut dps increase for lightweave. (since on +damage bosses haste's %tual influence on your dps is still linear, but due to the enhanced DPS the dps effect of haste is AS enhanced as lightweaves dps (both by the factor of the bosses ability).

    lightweave IS unarguably more effective in movement intensive fights where running = lesscasts / ~47 secs (2 secs for mean time of reproc)

    lightweave may be partialy better than haste, but its ONLY better in one on one comparision, which is undoubtedly of actualy NO CONCERN to this topic.
    and actualy its irelevant anyway.

    because a player who STAYS tailor, and is using the haste enchant needs to be dragged out and shot. the comparision HAS to be haste + decent proffession, and the effect is already measurably higher than the difference between "FAIR" lightweave/haste comps.

    so for the purpose of this thread.
    lightweave might be an increase for you, depending on your gear and the encoutners you play, arguably better for some casters than others, but this effect is miniscule (and thus ignorable) to the alternatives.

    your complete argument HAS to be along the line of "mh , lighweave is alot better than haste, and although other jobs are better, its only marginaly"
    otherwise why did you even JOIN this thread.
    Again pansa YOU READ MORE INTO WHAT IS THERE, To quote you "your complete argument HAS to be along the line of "mh , lighweave is alot better than haste, and although other jobs are better, its only marginaly"
    otherwise why did you even JOIN this thread." I said it was better I never stated alot better did I? Which goes again to show you take things that are not there to show my previous statement about you was valid.

    Since you did bring
    Did I ever state 90 to 100dps increase, that was not me.

    You state this thread is viability of tailoring...and lightweave vs 23 haste, is not viable discussion according to you, pick a proper arguement instead of throwing stuff out.

    I am sorry you do not like my sources just because you say they are not viable does not mean they are not. You wanted to know where I got information so I showed you. Anybody can claim that a source is not viable if it does not show exactly what you want, sometimes it is called extrapolating.

    To quote you "lightweave IS unarguably more effective in movement intensive fights where running = lesscasts / ~47 secs (2 secs for mean time of reproc)" very few boss fights do not require decent amount of movement, 3 in naxx I believe and that is it, so thank you for proving lightweave for most boss fights better than 23 haste.

  4. #44

    Re: Tailoring in 3.1?

    Quote Originally Posted by zuxia
    Again pansa YOU READ MORE INTO WHAT IS THERE, To quote you "your complete argument HAS to be along the line of "mh , lighweave is alot better than haste, and although other jobs are better, its only marginaly"
    otherwise why did you even JOIN this thread." I said it was better I never stated alot better did I? Which goes again to show you take things that are not there to show my previous statement about you was valid.
    if its not your opinion the "otherwise" clause picks up "WHY ARE YOU EVEN HERE?"
    Since you did bring
    Did I ever state 90 to 100dps increase, that was not me.
    didnt say you did.
    You state this thread is viability of tailoring...and lightweave vs 23 haste, is not viable discussion according to you, pick a proper arguement instead of throwing stuff out.
    for the sake of this thread its not viable to argue that a tailor enchanting haste is worse of than a tailor enchanting lightweave.
    your argument derails this thread from the fact, that tailoring gets far less efficient bonus, with a lot narrower application, which due to its skaling nature will additionaly diminish its usefullness
    I am sorry you do not like my sources just because you say they are not viable does not mean they are not. You wanted to know where I got information so I showed you. Anybody can claim that a source is not viable if it does not show exactly what you want, sometimes it is called extrapolating.
    you NITWIT a thread with a some dude saying "its better" isnt a source, thats hearsay.
    and the other a thread discusses the topic, but actualy doesnt support your claim, that discussion is neither finished nor accurate (and i told you WHY its not accurate, so if you want to claim it IS , tell me WHY )
    one half of the argument sets the the breakpoint in viccinity of actual achievable dps numbers.
    although he has made conceptual errors himself.

    this isnt about me arbitrarily dissmissing relevant material.... neither source supports your claim fundamentaly. this isnt a question of "what answer has more followers".
    To quote you "lightweave IS unarguably more effective in movement intensive fights where running = lesscasts / ~47 secs (2 secs for mean time of reproc)" very few boss fights do not require decent amount of movement, 3 in naxx I believe and that is it, so thank you for proving lightweave for most boss fights better than 23 haste.
    again conveniently ignoring aoe scenarios.
    you cant just take "what you like" as "the standart" and therefore call it "the defining factor"
    what you feal about the status of movment is actualy irrelevant ^^. additionaly it needs to be movment which lasts long enough to exaust all instacasts

    btw: so just to recheck, why did you write about seed of corrpution being the only aoe spell being effected by haste again?

  5. #45

    Re: Tailoring in 3.1?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pansa
    if its not your opinion the "otherwise" clause picks up "WHY ARE YOU EVEN HERE?"didnt say you did.for the sake of this thread its not viable to argue that a tailor enchanting haste is worse of than a tailor enchanting lightweave.
    your argument derails this thread from the fact, that tailoring gets far less efficient bonus, with a lot narrower application, which due to its skaling nature will additionaly diminish its usefullnessyou NITWIT a thread with a some dude saying "its better" isnt a source, thats hearsay.

    and the other a thread discusses the topic, but actualy doesnt support your claim, that discussion is neither finished nor accurate (and i told you WHY its not accurate, so if you want to claim it IS , tell me WHY )
    one half of the argument sets the the breakpoint in viccinity of actual achievable dps numbers.
    although he has made conceptual errors himself.

    this isnt about me arbitrarily dissmissing relevant material.... neither source supports your claim fundamentaly. this isnt a question of "what answer has more followers".again conveniently ignoring aoe scenarios.
    you cant just take "what you like" as "the standart" and therefore call it "the defining factor"
    what you feal about the status of movment is actualy irrelevant ^^. additionaly it needs to be movment which lasts long enough to exaust all instacasts

    btw: so just to recheck, why did you write about seed of corrpution being the only aoe spell being effected by haste again?
    The movement needs to be long enough to remove exhaust instant casts. Well if you use an instant cast and others are on cd, which can/does happen requently in boss fights fairly frequently removes your limitation you placed on movement. Then we can also add to movement, the effects that remove or limit movement. So again you still show lightweave is better on most boss fights by your own words mind you.

    Did I make the first post of haste being better than tailoring enchant, nope, but you want to continue it and you will continue to do so regardless of what I post Pansa, nothing I point out to you will make a difference (this is obvious from previous discussions with you in other threads)

    Since you did not make the correlation...I posted the one thread of where you could find the direct math. I read the thread, told you where you could go to find the math, it is your job to read it and check it...that is what means to site a source.

    We can talk about scaling 23 haste vs lightweave...lightweave crits are still dependant upon toons crit so lightweave still scales. I will go out on limb here, lightweave procs are internal cd so is it possible with haste the proc rates go up...couldn't tell you that for sure.

  6. #46

    Re: Tailoring in 3.1?

    Quote Originally Posted by Silendal
    Is there any kind of news about tailoring recipes in patch 3.1? I'm thinking to drop taloring for something else since atm it is quite unusefull at least for me. But does anyone know if Blizzard will introduce some new "powerfull" recipes in next patch?

    Ty in advance for your help

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  7. #47

    Re: Tailoring in 3.1?

    Quote Originally Posted by verator
    Lightweave for a dps caster works out to around 60 dps I think it was figured out, which is far less useful than the max haste enchant to cloak.
    um no

  8. #48
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    Re: Tailoring in 3.1?

    In patch 3.1, Blizz is throwing us tailors a few bones, of course they arent very good bones...more like those nasty crunchy bones that many dogs dont like rather than Greenies. Any who...we are getting a few recipes which arent that great imo but i suppose its better than nothing.

    Whom ever said we are getting punished...we didnt make the unbalance, gimping tailoring because they made it too profitable in the past, would go against their idea of creating balance in the game. We are talking about professionals, not vengeful teens, who make the game....atleast i hope.

    [Question] "Where can I find a rouge trainer?"
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  9. #49

    Re: Tailoring in 3.1?

    Just some random numbers a shadow priest in our guild was getting from lightweave procs.

    On average he was getting 2-3 procs per fight. Most was 4 on Kel'thuzad. Which was a 4 minute fight.

    average procs are in the 1200 range with highest one i saw was 4098 on thaddius.

    average dps from lightweave procs was 31.58dps. (number is slightly inflated due to Thaddius fight)

    totals for instance:
    dps time of 56 minutes
    44 procs
    106,127 damage

  10. #50
    I am Murloc! Fenixdown's Avatar
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    Re: Tailoring in 3.1?

    Actually, I don't think those new patterns are too bad. Statswise, they're improvements of any drop in Naxx. To boot, they have two gem slots each. I'm already gonna start saving up Mooncloth in preparation.

    The cape embroideries are great for your back slot enchant, especially if you are a healer. Darkglow procs a pretty good bit for me.


  11. #51

    Re: Tailoring in 3.1?

    Lightweave Embroidery now give you a chance to increase your spell power by 250 for 15 sec when casting a spell.

    looks pretty substantial to me

  12. #52

    Re: Tailoring in 3.1?

    depends on the hidden cooldown which will be 45sec I guess (when you compare it with other proc trinkets) and it probably will proc of everything (non damage/heal spells, etc) so its very situational...
    Theorycrafters could start to evaluate it against the LW bracer enchant, etc...

  13. #53

    Re: Tailoring in 3.1?

    if proc rate and cd stay the same we would have 250 for 15 sec every 45 sec. Averaging 83,33 SP. This would make it the best Cloak Enchant for Casters. Plus you can stack it with other Cooldowns making it even better.
    Awesome since 1986 - Armory

  14. #54

    Re: Tailoring in 3.1?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramuh
    if proc rate and cd stay the same we would have 250 for 15 sec every 45 sec. Averaging 83,33 SP. This would make it the best Cloak Enchant for Casters. Plus you can stack it with other Cooldowns making it even better.
    Frankly, unless they buff the other professions, I don't see it staying with the same cd and proc chance. Considering that currently, the best professions for casters (JC, enchanting, inscription) all provide ~38 spellpower by way of their profession-only benefits, a bump of 83 spellpower for tailors pretty much screams overpowered.

    I fully expect to see it brought in line with the other benefits either by longer cd or lower proc chance or both.

    That said, even if it's nerfed, as long as it's brought up to par with the other profession boosts it will still be a significant buff for tailors.

  15. #55

    Re: Tailoring in 3.1?

    That would be 83 SP minus the haste you lose. Not too OP.

  16. #56

    Re: Tailoring in 3.1?

    But more OP than de bonuses from other Professions.

    Others have ca. 38 Spell Power.
    I loose 23 Haste, as haste is worse than Spell this is depending on Class and Spec roughly 15 Spell power.

    So i get ~68 Spell Power, wayyyyyyyyyyy better then 38 Spell Power. AWESOME. but i see a nerf coming if this is supposed to be the profession perk.
    Awesome since 1986 - Armory

  17. #57

    Re: Tailoring in 3.1?

    Quote Originally Posted by wayth
    Frankly, unless they buff the other professions, I don't see it staying with the same cd and proc chance. Considering that currently, the best professions for casters (JC, enchanting, inscription) all provide ~38 spellpower by way of their profession-only benefits, a bump of 83 spellpower for tailors pretty much screams overpowered.

    I fully expect to see it brought in line with the other benefits either by longer cd or lower proc chance or both.

    That said, even if it's nerfed, as long as it's brought up to par with the other profession boosts it will still be a significant buff for tailors.
    Well, this has to compensate for 38SP and 23haste, plus the advantage that JC has due to prismatic gems and not having to use crappy blue gems.

  18. #58

    Re: Tailoring in 3.1?

    Quote Originally Posted by nazrakin
    Well, this has to compensate for 38SP and 23haste, plus the advantage that JC has due to prismatic gems and not having to use crappy blue gems.
    I think it is a nice buff for tailoring compare to the crap stuff they got bevor.

    The advantage of JC is still better than the new tailoring i think! Blue sockets for casters still sucks!!!!!!!

  19. #59
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    Re: Tailoring in 3.1?

    First, 45 sec internal does not mean 15 every 45 sec, more likely 50 or higher, depending on cast speed. Being generous and giving it a 50 sec, means 75 sp average.
    Keeping in mind that SP has something like a .85 budget, this 75 sp is roughly 63.75 budget. Subtract the 23 haste budget and you get 40.75 budget for the enchant, over non-tailors. Starting to look more like the values we get from other professions?

    Also, JC provides a benefit many often overlook in the ability to avoid socketing for non-DPS stats while still getting socket bonuses. There isn't much of a gap to speak of.

    Consider further that we may see upgrades of many other crafts this patch.
    It may get nerfed, but it really might not.

    Definitely a step up from the old embroidery though.

  20. #60

    Re: Tailoring in 3.1?



    This is Lightweave on the PTR. I'd say it's much better now.
    Rule# 1: Do not turn a creature of lesser intelligence into a creature of higher intelligence - Cerebral brain function rarely translates in a polymorph... But sometimes it does. Voracious creatures such as serpents and wolves need not have their predatory instincts honed with a human mind. We feel obligated to quote Small Claims Disaster Case 12651-B, Labeled, "Bartholomew: The Bear who Bears Arms."
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