Is WotLK the first one to do it ?

[Brince]

I was bored one week and started a BT pug back in 2.3

And we did a full clear o.O

Kinda cool, considering my guild was the only alliance one to have it cleared at the time and there were only 3 ppl from my guild in it.

Was somthing wrong then?

Sorry but i really don't believe it, unless all your pug was made by t5 ppl with at least ssc and tk cleared.
BT pre nerf was not so easy, and i don't think that 25 random ppl with crappy gear could do it.

[Bramickias]

Stop trying to make this threat about how easy WotLK is, it's not about that.

If you want to debate how easy WotLK is theres other threads about that.
The question i'm asking isnt about WotLK difficulty vs vanilla-WoW (because i consider it vastly easier anyway). It's about knowing if all the other MMORPG, before it, released expansions that reduced the difficulty of the game, maintained it or made it tougher even for their longtime subscribers.

^^this is the question.

[Baever]

It's not truly easier.

[Middle cut out]

Fact: Since WotLK's launch, I've never had a PuG Raid fail to meet their goals.

Your closing statement disagrees with your opening.

A majority of players, casual or hardcore, are not very good at the game. This is why instances were tuned to the level they are, meaning the game is, truly, easier.

[failoth]

i just had a 10 man pug that could not down anub after 3 attempts. i then got the fuck out of there.

[Nezoia]

And by "it" i mean restarting the end-game content to entrance level difficulty with the release of an expansion.

WoW is the first MMO that I played for so long so i cant compare.
Did all the EQ, UO, DaoC, Lineage, FFIX, LotRO etc, released expansions with content that was easier then their previous contents? Is WotLK one of the first MMO to take a serious stepback in difficulty after the release of an expansion?

Everyone seems so surprised about the level of difficulty of WotLK, but i'm wondering if its because its something unusual for an MMORPG or if its because most can just compare with TBC as far as expansions are concerned.

Yes, WoW is the only MMORPG who expects people to be clueless newbies who only played for 2 weeks when they hit the new max level in each expansion.

Sorry but i really don't believe it, unless all your pug was made by t5 ppl with at least ssc and tk cleared. BT pre nerf was not so easy, and i don't think that 25 random ppl with crappy gear could do it.

For EU-realms, Silvermoon & Magtheridon had well many pugs of BT & Hyjal.
Just go talk to Sunandsteel, he made quite a few lol. (or w/e his nickname is now, he's the dude who went emo about Ensidia.)

[Nezoia]

And to spice stuff up, here's a thread ironically from Fires of Heaven's boards.

http://www.fohguild.org/forums/retar...ry-lesson.html

And a old rant of Tigoles from the everquest time, I specially love that one.

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/sdetail.html?story=633

The high end game in Everquest revolves around raiding. Currently, for a number of reasons which I will identify, there are simply not enough spawns to keep the *raiding community* content. What happens when people are not content? They stop playing.

[Baever]

And to spice stuff up, here's a thread ironically from Fires of Heaven's boards.

http://www.fohguild.org/forums/retar...ry-lesson.html

And a old rant of Tigoles from the everquest time, I specially love that one.

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/sdetail.html?story=633

Hahaha, that's pretty ironic.

[Korakt]

Nothing in Wrath so far is top notch content. Period. I dunno where you kids are getting the idea that you're doing endgame content and then they'll nerf it later, but it simply doesn't work that way. You're playing the easy crap.

Never said it was, I was thinking about Black Temple release f ex.

[Torture]

Let me give you an example of the precedent of making things easier in an expansion;

Original Naxx ---> Karazhan

[kulviks]

well only really played DaoC and they werent much into instances woulden really say the expansions they released was easier, though i only played until Trials of atlantis, but woulden say it was harder, it was just different, and a new way of playing, but then again Doac has always been about RvR so doing more PvE content was very new

even though i might agree that most of the new instances in wotlk are pretty easy, most people are forgetting that the biggest instance of them all, naxx was solely put back in the game so as many people as posible could try it out, there for it was made very casual, they have stated that them self. Lets see how Ulduar goes when its released.

[Korakt]

Nothing in Wrath so far is top notch content. Period. I dunno where you kids are getting the idea that you're doing endgame content and then they'll nerf it later, but it simply doesn't work that way. You're playing the easy crap.

Never said it was, I was thinking about Black Temple release f ex.

[Dammagia]

Let me give you an example of the precedent of making things easier in an expansion;

Original Naxx ---> Karazhan

So what would be harder? Original Naxx with 25 level 80's or Current Naxx with 40 level 60's?

I think we all know the answer to that, seeing as you can Solo Kara now at lvl 80

Its not that the content has been made massively easier, its that the Classes in relation to the content have become massively overpowered.

All the AOE DPS and Healing makes the content a lol fest for the most part.

We went back to BT at the end of the TBC era 3.0.8 patch or whatever, and the whole place was a lol fest.. Ignore the boss fights for a minute, the trash which was the cause of a few problems now just got rounded up by the tanks and every class just AoE'd it down. You could clear the entire place in a few hours.

Now take all of that, and multiply it by the fact you can get Naxx lvl T7 (not 7.5) before you even go anywhere near Naxx from running heroics, and its another lol fest.

Sure a great guild can go into naxx with greens and blues from questing and get through it all with skillz, they always could tbh, they were kicking Kara in greens and blues. For the rest of us, we just gear up in heroics (could never do this before) and then into Naxx to kick ass and chew gum.

Never before on release of an expansion (not a content patch) were you able to walk into the raid instances pretty much full (80 level) epic geared before you started.

This is one reason why it seems easier, the players have more power.

All the top guilds on my server are so confident in the instances now, we run 25 man pugs of our Alts to gear them up! Thats Naxx, Malygos, Sarth 2d... Partly because we have nothing left to raid as a guild and partly because it removes the tedium of all this achievement nonsense.

Personally I am looking forward to Ulduar for some midgame content, and eventually icecrown, then I will judge how good this stuff really is.

My suggested fixes?

Remove epics from 10 man version raids. Same as normal instance and heroics, leave the epics to the heroic versions. Make them epic again.

Change the mechanics so that PVE skillz does not equal PVP skills... Balance PVE around DPS abilities etc, but give certain abilities a reduced effect against players. Then we will stop seeing classes getting nerfed to hell in PVE just because of some arena QQ'rs eg Rogues, Death Knights, Warlocks etc.


And In answer to the question, I cannot remember as much imbalance of Player>Content in any other MMO patch.

[cassi]

the funny thing is 25 man are easyer than 10 man that was the last point out how much they failed doing wotlk

and gear check bosses are just boring and easy there should be more bosses like heigen and thaddius you wipe if you don't do it right even if you have group with t10 doing it

[herpecin]

not sure if this was mentioned but imo WoW is the first MMO with real expansions. other MMO's "expansions" are what WoW calls content patches.

its like comparign apples to oranges. you can do it, but that doesnt mean its to be done

[Deleted]

i just had a 10 man pug that could not down anub after 3 attempts. i then got the fuck out of there.

It was on heroic?

[cassi]

normal with all ppl 80 i quess

[Torture]

So what would be harder? Original Naxx with 25 level 80's or Current Naxx with 40 level 60's?

I think we all know the answer to that, seeing as you can Solo Kara now at lvl 80

Its not that the content has been made massively easier, its that the Classes in relation to the content have become massively overpowered.

All the AOE DPS and Healing makes the content a lol fest for the most part.

We went back to BT at the end of the TBC era 3.0.8 patch or whatever, and the whole place was a lol fest.. Ignore the boss fights for a minute, the trash which was the cause of a few problems now just got rounded up by the tanks and every class just AoE'd it down. You could clear the entire place in a few hours.

Now take all of that, and multiply it by the fact you can get Naxx lvl T7 (not 7.5) before you even go anywhere near Naxx from running heroics, and its another lol fest.

Sure a great guild can go into naxx with greens and blues from questing and get through it all with skillz, they always could tbh, they were kicking Kara in greens and blues. For the rest of us, we just gear up in heroics (could never do this before) and then into Naxx to kick ass and chew gum.

Never before on release of an expansion (not a content patch) were you able to walk into the raid instances pretty much full (80 level) epic geared before you started.

This is one reason why it seems easier, the players have more power.

All the top guilds on my server are so confident in the instances now, we run 25 man pugs of our Alts to gear them up! Thats Naxx, Malygos, Sarth 2d... Partly because we have nothing left to raid as a guild and partly because it removes the tedium of all this achievement nonsense.

Personally I am looking forward to Ulduar for some midgame content, and eventually icecrown, then I will judge how good this stuff really is.

My suggested fixes?

Remove epics from 10 man version raids. Same as normal instance and heroics, leave the epics to the heroic versions. Make them epic again.

Change the mechanics so that PVE skillz does not equal PVP skills... Balance PVE around DPS abilities etc, but give certain abilities a reduced effect against players. Then we will stop seeing classes getting nerfed to hell in PVE just because of some arena QQ'rs eg Rogues, Death Knights, Warlocks etc.


And In answer to the question, I cannot remember as much imbalance of Player>Content in any other MMO patch.

Valid points, and I'll agree with the majority.

I don't think you can argue that Kara wasn't comparatively easier to Naxx40 though. In terms of tactical challenge you can't even compare 4 horsemen to attumen for example, and whilst I thoroughly agree that gear weighting makes a big difference I would still suggest early raid content in TBC was easier than late raid content in Vanilla.

In terms of removing epics, I really don't care if the items are grey as long as they're a stat upgrade, if people want to obsess about needing purples to feel 'better' or 'more advanced' then so be it, for me gear is simply a tool with which to challenge better content, not some sort of penis enlargement.

The thing is, endgame needs resetting now and again to make it accessible. Lets imagine for a moment that we had remained 60 and the expansions had instead released harder and harder content. Raid progression for a new player would now be;

5 mans - UBRS - ZG - AQ20 - MC - Ony - BWL - AQ40 - Naxx - Kara - Gruul - SSC - TK - Maggy - MH - BT - SWP - Naxx

come on, that isn't progress, it simply blocks access to new players and decreases the pool of new folk for guilds to draw from. You have to draw a line under sections and start again to give people a new entry point to the overall progress. But then when you do this you have to return to entry level and thus make things easier at first.

I do understand the frustration of the hardcore, they desire a constant challenge and would happily see instances simply get harder and harder and harder with no regularisation. But that model won't work commercially so people will need to accept that now and again progress needs to be reset, like stopping a bus to let new people on board before it moves on again.