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  1. #1

    Disc vs Holy in raids

    Dunno if this have been discussed before.

    Last night I had a pretty big discussion with my friends about disc raid healing.
    I stated that ofc you can use a disc priest in a 25 man raid, no problem just let him heal the MT and OT or something like that and he'll never go oom.
    No, they stated that holy is best for 25man atm, since there aren't any fights where the disc specs mana regen proves better than holy.
    K, I couldn't convince them that disc healing is very reliable and mana efficient, so I tried to explain that it's a horses for courses (correct me if i'm wrong with that!) issue, but they still didn't buy it.
    The discussion ended without a winner and I took a look on the best guilds on my server.
    No big guilds uses them and no1 on my server even intend to use them, mb if Ulduar bids on some 25+ min fight it might be considerable.
    And no, my friends are not noob, nor the big guilds are idiots or something, many ppl are just by the meaning that: "discipline is for pvp, holy is for pve, END!"
    and i've really tried to prove them wrong.
    The big point of this issue is, how can we change ppls minds about disc pve healing ?

    I've played and tested the spec several times and it works great, mb i'm not on top of the healing meter but I keep the ppl alive which i'm supposed to.

  2. #2

    Re: Disc vs Holy in raids

    Disc Priest + Prot Pally FTW!

  3. #3

    Re: Disc vs Holy in raids

    Quote Originally Posted by omniscience
    I've played and tested the spec several times and it works great, mb i'm not on top of the healing meter but I keep the ppl alive which i'm supposed to.
    Healing meters dont matter that much, it does give an overview, but it shouldnt be the most important factor to prove someones usefullness.

    I'm a discipline priest myself, and I aswell have to prove myself to some people.

    This is what a shaman told me in VoA25 'Hm, I always thought discipline was more pvp oriented', I simply replied 'It's not about big heals like holy, but fast efficient heals and damage mitigation', and I wont go further into it, because people who see discipline as pvp spec are obviously people who only look at themselves instead of going on the internet and actually read up on stuff. mmo-champion is a good place for this, because you can just read it on the frontpage rather then going to elitistjerks and read every specific classforum.

    Also I was spamhealing myself when I'm bored and that shaman said 'I'll spec resto later and show you how to heal' that proves how egocentric he was.

  4. #4

    Re: Disc vs Holy in raids

    disc is more for singel healing and shields to prevent dmg
    holy is more for raid healing

    no one of those really have problem with mana right now
    but in a more difficult instance like sunwell was in tbc a disc priest mana would last alot longer than a holy priest mana

    the biggest problem is that you cant really measure how usefull a disc priest is right now becouse all the dmg absorbed by their shield,Divine Aegis and all the dmg reduced by Grace, but i would say that a disc priest is atleast as usefull as a holy priest in raids, a disc priest and a paladin on a mt and he should never be able to die

  5. #5

    Re: Disc vs Holy in raids

    For tank healing there is nothing better than a disc priest / holy paladin combo imo. It combines the best damage mitigation/avoidance healer with the healer with best HPS for single targets and its just pure win.
    And yes, i have tried disc on several occasions, and with the right PVE spec it is just downright impossible to go oom, even when spamhealing non stop at 3D. Dont even have to use a pot or the pet as i normally must when healing the same fight as holy.

    Holy priest have more HPS and are more versitile, we can swich from efficient MT healing to raid healing, and all in the same fight, which is what makes us strong. Good holy priests might still come out on the top of many healmeters, but dont forget that disc have a lot of prevented damage that does not show on the healmeters.
    If you have the PW:S glyph and WWS you can easily calculate how much damage your PW:S prevented and DA and Pain Supression comes on top of that.

    I love both specs for PVE and cant wait for dualspec!

  6. #6

    Re: Disc vs Holy in raids

    Discipline and holy are both useful in both PVP and PVE. It is no longer true that Disc = PVP. Anyone still saying that ought to be smacked.

    --

    A discipline priest modus operandi is mostly about damage prevention. (Thanks to the person who made me realise this!)
    He does this by placing PW:Shields around on targets likely to take damage. This will gain him spellhaste (Borrowed Time) for the next heal. This can be used to casting very fast heals (GHeal, FHeal and Penance in particular) which does not heal for a lot due to the lack of healing boosting talents. But each of these heals can crit, causing a Divine Aegis bubble to appear on the target. Plus, fast heals are always lifesavers. These heals may also buff Grace (healing booster, damage reduction) which improve survivability further. As long as the discipline priest avoids overhealing, he will hardly ever run out of mana thanks to Rapture and a hefty amount of intellect boosting talents making him the biggest benefactor of Replenishment in the game.

    As other have mentioned, the discipline priest paired with a holy paladin makes the best single target healing combo in the game right now. Discipline priests are basically awesome healers who may not have a lot of throughput, but makes up for it in prevention. It's just that the prevention is hard to measure. Adding 25% to healing done is usually a good benchmark. A good discipline priest will be capable of landing vital heals on targets in despair faster than almost anyone, and on multiple people to boot. On the downside, discipline priests don't stack well, as PW:Shields are mutually exclusive thanks to the weakened soul debuff, and if you make two discpriests heal the same target, you will get a "many chefs in one kitchen" scenario where they will step on eachothers toes. Discpriests are also relatively weak in terms of raidhealing capabilities*, but most discipline priests redeem this for 5/10-man content by glyphing for Holy Nova.

    *) controversial statement that can easily cause discussion. Basically, a discipline priest have PoH, Holy Nova and ProM for raidhealing. The latter is uncontrollable, but may save the day. The two former are party-wide only, but there is absolutely no question that a discipline priest can heal 5-man content just fine, even excel at it, much thanks to the varied priest toolbox. In 10-man content, you can easily place a discipline priest on raidhealing; in fact he's pretty decent at it - and a glyphed Holy Nova is a very potent heal for even this situation despite its limits. In 25 man content however, he's not really a good raidhealer at all due to being limited to single target heals outside of his own group.

    --

    A Holy priest modus operandi is mostly about placing big overpowered heals at the proper time.
    A Holy priest is like a healing general. You sit back, look at the battle, the damage, who is taking incoming damage at regular intervals, who is tanking what. You watch your troops struggle, you see where the action is. you predict incoming trouble. You precast a big effing heal so that it lands just after the big problem emerge, and almost counter it immediately. The Holy Priest has the biggest arsenal in the game (marginally more spells than a druid), and most of them are actually useful in given situations; seeing the flow of the battle, proactively seeing where trouble will emerge, deciding which heal goes where and which heal would counter the emerging situation the best is the big challenge for a holy priest. You can count any situation, it's mostly a matter of recognizing the situation and the proper way of fixing it. Priest healing feels a bit like a puzzle game at times. At least that's the theory. In practice, you mostly end up spamming flash heal a lot.

    The main reason for picking holy as your specc is the stupidly overpowered heals. I thought I was healing for insane amounts during the battle of the undercity. Looking back, those were small fry compared to what I'm pumping out right now. With almost every talent in the holy tree increasing healing done in some way or another, the difference between a discipline flash heal and a holy flash heal is like night and day. Where you as a discipline often have to heal multiple times to bring people up to full health, a holy priest can often get away with a single cast.

    In addition, Holy get access to the two best heals in the game.
    • Lightwell is the best healing spell by leaps and bounds, but also very clunky to use. At best, it's like bringing an additional healer. At worst, it's a waste of a talent point. It really all depend on whether your guild can and want to use it. I personally use it on Sapphiron, on the horsemen and as a landmark on Sartharion.
    • Circle of Healing used to be the best heal in the game, but it's still not bad, being a raidwide, smart healing spell, albeit with a hefty cooldown. Only downside is that it plays and feels like a discipline healing spell, it's healing for a very small amount per target.

    Holy has some downsides. It's not a healer built for spamming; you definitively need those OOFSR breaks if you want to sustain your manapool. A holy priest can throw a lot of mana on almost any problem redeeming it for a short while, but doing so for prolonged periods will cost you your manapool. Managing the Five Second Rule is part of the fun of being a holy priest, a stark contrast to the discipline priests who almost never leave it. The FSR regen will be significantly nerfed in 3.1, it is not given whether holy priests will get any compensation for this. The only real mana-saving talent in the holy tree is Serendipity, which returns mana on single target spells doing overhealing. This talent alone usually is worth more than the rest of your mana income (replenishment, meditation, shadowfiend +++) combined, but its efficiency is very much tied to actually healing the target up to full HP. Failling that many times in a row (f.ex healing Patchwerk under a badly geared offtank) will cause a holy priest to run dry extremely fast.

    Also, despite being the raidhealer friendly specc for priests, holy priests are ill equipped for 25 man raidhealing. Beyond Prayer of Mending which is impossible to control and a 10 second cooldown CoH, holy priests are usually reduced to spamming flash heal to bring the raid back up to health. This is a very costly mode of healing unless overgeared for the content at hand. With most raids cutting back on the amount of healers these days, holy priests get to play less the role of the general, and more the role of the a ship mechanic given a sturdy bucket and a collection of situationally useful pumps, trying to prevent the ship from sinking.

    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

  7. #7

    Re: Disc vs Holy in raids

    We have a disc priest that raids with us on all of our 25man content and she does a great job. She's always at the bottom of the healing charts so people think she sucks. What you have to explain to people is that a disc priest's job is primarily preventitive damage, with heals being second.

    With a disc priest, you eliminate a good chunk of burst damage off a lot of the bosses, allowing healers to keep the main tank up noticeably easier.

    Can you raid without a disc priest? Of course, but with most fights designed for 5 healers [yes you can do a lot of them with 4, 5 is just the golden number imo] having 1 of the spots taken up by a disc priest is very nice.

    My 5 healers usually consist of 1 druid, 1 resto shaman, 1 holy pali [me], 1 holy priest, 1 disc priest. On some nights we have 6 healers [overkill but some of our dps blows so we bring a healer over them to make naxx even easier lol] and that 6th slot is usually another druid.

    I've seen quite a few fights where having a disc priest makes life a lot easier as a healer, so though she doesn't top the healing charts, all of the healers love her, because it allows us to heal the people doing stupid shit without fear of the tank dying and it makes fights like Sapph even easier.


    Overall 1 disc priest will make all the other healers life a lot easier, not that being a healer is currently difficult but...I can watch my tv shows and raid at the sametime with a disc priest in the raid lol.

    And with 3.1 they will be making disc priests even more viable in PvE content [group bubble wtf? lawl].

  8. #8

    Re: Disc vs Holy in raids

    The "problem"(which isnt really a problem) is that there is no absorb meter. if you could show how much damage a disc priests bubbles were absorbing from the MT, combine that with their healing, i can almost promise they would be on top of every and any healing meter. i love me a disc priest as i am a MT
    It's okay, I'm just more evolved than the rest of you.

  9. #9

    Re: Disc vs Holy in raids

    As Holy, as Dis are useful in PvE, but has different places of usage. The first one is a tank healer and the second one is raid healer.

    Unfortunately Holy is low for PvP.They are very uneffective in manaregen and if you survive the first nuke - you will likely lose due to the luck of mana.

  10. #10

    Re: Disc vs Holy in raids

    Quote Originally Posted by Dokoran

    And with 3.1 they will be making disc priests even more viable in PvE content [group bubble wtf? lawl].
    Honestly this makes me giddy. i cannot wait to hear the QQ from every other healer about, awww WTF is that shit?
    It's okay, I'm just more evolved than the rest of you.

  11. #11

    Re: Disc vs Holy in raids

    Discipline is getting some huge buffs in 3.1. They are getting a 5 target shield and they are gaining the ability to shield warriors without ever having to worry about that warrior losing rage (which is a huge problem for them right now). Also, after the nerfs to mana regen in 3.1, discipline priests will have better regeneration than holy does hands down.

    That being said, you really can't compare discipline to holy because discipline is a utility and main tank healer as compared to holy being a utility and group healer. It is easier to compare discipline to a holy paladin. In that case the paladin will currently always win. Discipline is just not currently where it needs to be to earn a healing spot in a 25 man raid as compared to a holy paladin. After 3.1 so much is being changed that discipline should hopefully become viable. Until then save the discipline spec for PvP and raid as a holy priest.
    I used to be hardcore, then I discovered how fun it is to get laid on an almost daily basis. I'll take sex over WoW any day, so now I'm casual.

  12. #12

    Re: Disc vs Holy in raids

    Quote Originally Posted by iebe
    'It's not about big heals like holy, but fast efficient heals and damage mitigation',
    The problem here is that it fails at this aspect as well. Your biggest damage mitigation ability (suppress pain) has a 10% threat reduction built in which is about the stupidest thing that can possibly be done to such a great ability that was clearly made to use on a tank in the fight. Your shield is not that much more powerful than the same shield thrown by holy. Your divine aegis relies heavily on crit heals and even then your crit heal plus divine aegis still doesn't heal as much as a paladins holy light critical heal. That means that all in all the class fails when it comes to negating damage and healing currently except in pvp. The shaman was correct to call you out on it.

    Also I was spamhealing myself when I'm bored and that shaman said 'I'll spec resto later and show you how to heal' that proves how egocentric he was.
    You were bored in VoA (land of the pug newbs that love to stand in aoe damage) so you decided to waste your mana spam healing yourself. That tells me you either had to many healers or a lot of people died. Either way it makes you look bad.
    I used to be hardcore, then I discovered how fun it is to get laid on an almost daily basis. I'll take sex over WoW any day, so now I'm casual.

  13. #13

    Re: Disc vs Holy in raids

    Some people are very hard headed and refuse to accept less common specs as being viable. Mainly because people as a whole judge such things by popularity which I think is a pretty stupid way to go about it.

    Firstly you need to accept that disc healing is different to holy, and as such you can't really directly compare the two. Disc is focused on single target hps while holy is more of a utility heal spec and able to slot in and do multiple roles, it also has greater power in multi target healing which is what most raids use them for.

    So it comes down to what your raid needs... a disc priest is an extremely viable tank healer and it's my opinion that you are best to diversify your raid needs accross a variety of classes, in otherwords taking 1 disc priest with 2 holy pallys is better than 3 holy pallys. Disc will bring your raid DS (although its becomming baseline) Grace (you may not have BoSanc and grace can be buffed on anyone who may not have BoSanc as a standard buff) pain suppression and some very nifty damage avoidance (particularly useful in situations where you can't heal, Loatheb for example). Why people feel the need to denegrate disc I have no idea... i've healed as Disc and on my Pally and they are very comparable for the amount of HPS they can put out. Healing meters don't show it because a signficant portion of the HPS for disc is in damage reduction.

    So in summary, your raid leader is short sighted to not utilise a disc priest... I would say there isn't room for 2 (in an ideal raid) just due to the fact that 2 disc priests are likely to tread on each others toes (the shields don't stack, at least atm).

  14. #14

    Re: Disc vs Holy in raids

    Quote Originally Posted by Winnowill
    For tank healing there is nothing better than a disc priest / holy paladin combo imo. It combines the best damage mitigation/avoidance healer with the healer with best HPS for single targets and its just pure win.
    Although I agree with you, the problem is that the disc priest isn't needed because any well geared paladin can keep the tank up just fine on their own in 99% of the content (excluding 3 drakes) if they are played well. That makes the disc priest look lackluster. There is no way that any guild is going to chose a discipline priest over a holy paladin to be the main tank healer if they are actually given a choice.
    I used to be hardcore, then I discovered how fun it is to get laid on an almost daily basis. I'll take sex over WoW any day, so now I'm casual.

  15. #15

    Re: Disc vs Holy in raids

    Quote Originally Posted by Danner
    In addition, Holy get access to the two best heals in the game.
    • Lightwell is the best healing spell by leaps and bounds, but also very clunky to use. At best, it's like bringing an additional healer. At worst, it's a waste of a talent point. It really all depend on whether your guild can and want to use it. I personally use it on Sapphiron, on the horsemen and as a landmark on Sartharion.
    • Circle of Healing used to be the best heal in the game, but it's still not bad, being a raidwide, smart healing spell, albeit with a hefty cooldown. Only downside is that it plays and feels like a discipline healing spell, it's healing for a very small amount per target.
    The actual healing value of CoH is increased in 3.1. The cool down is also not overly cumbersome. It is actually pretty easy to twist in with your other abilities now.

    Also, despite being the raidhealer friendly specc for priests, holy priests are ill equipped for 25 man raidhealing. Beyond Prayer of Mending which is impossible to control and a 10 second cooldown CoH, holy priests are usually reduced to spamming flash heal to bring the raid back up to health.
    This where you totally lose me. CoH is on a 6 second cool down not a 10 second cool down. Also, flash of light (even glyphed) is the last thing you want to be spamming in any group or raid. Holy priests are built for large heals and greater heal will give you much better healing for mana usage if you realize when you need to use it. If you want to spam fast heals that don't heal for as much then go make a paladin. The best way to deal with a large amount of incoming group damage is to shield the targets that are really low and hot everyone. If your hot hasn't brought the person that was really low to full health by the time shield wears off then heal them, but not until it gets a chance to work.
    I used to be hardcore, then I discovered how fun it is to get laid on an almost daily basis. I'll take sex over WoW any day, so now I'm casual.

  16. #16

    Re: Disc vs Holy in raids

    Quote Originally Posted by Dokoran
    My 5 healers usually consist of 1 druid, 1 resto shaman, 1 holy pali [me], 1 holy priest, 1 disc priest. On some nights we have 6 healers [overkill but some of our dps blows so we bring a healer over them to make naxx even easier lol] and that 6th slot is usually another druid.
    Sucky dps is still dps unless its really sucky dps in which case they shouldn't even be in your guild if it is a raiding guild. Bringing an extra healer over a dps that just doesn't top the charts but understands the fights just makes the fight take longer than it should which makes it harder not easier. You seem to run with the perfect balance of healers. Normally our balance is something like one restor shaman and 3-4 restor druids. When we aren't bringing 4 restor druids it is normally because a priest is actually on. Of course, we just picked up a really good paladin healer, so now it will hopefully be 1 restor shaman, 1 holy priest, 1 holy paladin, 2 restor druids.

    it allows us to heal the people doing stupid shit without fear of the tank dying and it makes fights like Sapph even easier.
    Don't heal the people doing stupid shit? Seriously, if you are healing someone standing in a gas cloud at grob instead of just letting them die then you are making the wrong decision. If they are dumb enough to stand in a gas cloud then they are probably to stupid to figure out to move when they get injected. At thaddeus if they are failing to switch and you are healing them then you are killing the raid. At saph if they can't get out of a blizzard then they probably can't get behind an iceblock either. They are just dps. The majority of fights are just fine with the top 10 dps carrying the rest of the dps, so if a dps dies then its not a huge loss.

    Overall 1 disc priest will make all the other healers life a lot easier, not that being a healer is currently difficult but...I can watch my tv shows and raid at the sametime with a disc priest in the raid lol.
    This is a good thing? No wonder Blizzard thinks it needs to make it harder to be a healer. Why should dps and the tanks have to put 100% into raiding but you shouldn't have to? I won't debate that a discipline priest doesn't bring awesome utility. What I will say is that Blizzard needs to take a long hard look at the tree and rework the parts that are just bleh. Having improved shield be broken and so low in the tree that any holy can get it is a problem. Shield should be the majority of your healing so they need to swap the damage reflection talent for shield and improved shields and buff improved shields and fix it so that it actually takes the +spellpower into account. Then they need to remove the 10% threat reduction from pain suppression (which will allow it to be used on the tank much easier) which is probably left over from long ago when this ability was only able to be cast on yourself. Then they need to bring some actual healing increasing talents into the tree (not nearly as much as holy but at least healing gains additional % from intellect).
    I used to be hardcore, then I discovered how fun it is to get laid on an almost daily basis. I'll take sex over WoW any day, so now I'm casual.

  17. #17

    Re: Disc vs Holy in raids

    Quote Originally Posted by Daez
    they need to swap the damage reflection talent for shield and improved shields and buff improved shields and fix it so that it actually takes the +spellpower into account.
    To be honest Improved shield is in a good spot right now, lets assume we start putting points in to get to penance, 5/5 TD, 3/3 imp inner fire + 2/2 imp fort, 1 inner focus + 3/3 meditation now we have 1 point left, so either improved shields stays or we get another usefull talent, otherwise that point would go in either unbreakable will, silent resolve, martyrdom or reflective shields.

    Then they need to bring some actual healing increasing talents into the tree (not nearly as much as holy but at least healing gains additional % from intellect).
    On this I agree, Discipline priests are already stacking intellect, like holy priests stack spirit, this would be a good change. perhaps put it were improved divine spirit was (since we are getting spirit baseline, and I dont know what will happen to the improved talent) or add the affect to it.


  18. #18

    Re: Disc vs Holy in raids

    Quote Originally Posted by Komedi
    But they are going to pair them up.
    My argument was that they are not going to pair them up in this content. Guilds don't even want to bring 2 paladin healers to this content. Why would you bring 2 single target healers for the tank when the tank takes less damage than the raid does in this content? They are going to bring one single target healer (normally a paladin) and 4 raid healers.
    I used to be hardcore, then I discovered how fun it is to get laid on an almost daily basis. I'll take sex over WoW any day, so now I'm casual.

  19. #19

    Re: Disc vs Holy in raids

    Quote Originally Posted by Komedi
    you do know u can do this now - was changed at Lich release
    You do realize you are wrong? Just go read the patch notes for warriors in 3.1. Shields are stopping warriors from generating rage right now. The only reason you think it was changed in wrath is because warriors generate much more rage from damage done now. So, it looks like the shield isn't stopping the rage generation from damage when it actually is. This is being changed in 3.1 so that shield will no longer stop rage generation from damage.
    I used to be hardcore, then I discovered how fun it is to get laid on an almost daily basis. I'll take sex over WoW any day, so now I'm casual.

  20. #20

    Re: Disc vs Holy in raids

    Quote Originally Posted by Daez
    This where you totally lose me. CoH is on a 6 second cool down not a 10 second cool down. Also, flash of light (even glyphed) is the last thing you want to be spamming in any group or raid. Holy priests are built for large heals and greater heal will give you much better healing for mana usage if you realize when you need to use it. If you want to spam fast heals that don't heal for as much then go make a paladin. The best way to deal with a large amount of incoming group damage is to shield the targets that are really low and hot everyone. If your hot hasn't brought the person that was really low to full health by the time shield wears off then heal them, but not until it gets a chance to work.
    6 sec vs 10 sec. oops. My bad indeed; not sure how I managed to make that mistake.

    I agree that holy priests are built for large heals. It's what we should be doing. Big well-timed heals. Strategic heals. Being able to spot (preferrably in advance), mitigate and turn a bad situation. That's what the holy priest is all about.

    But GHeal is not the tool for that job.

    GHeal has ~10% more Healing per second than FHeal
    GHeal has ~10% more Healing per mana than FHeal.
    There is only small benefits by going GHeal instead of FHeal. But high risk, as your target always stand the risk of dying in the meantime.

    In Addition, GHeals will be sniped. Because it is the slowest heal in the game. Unless there is a constant need for healing (patchwerk), it will be sniped. Intentionally or not. It can be a Circle of Healing going off unintentionally, healing your target for a marginal amount. It can be a chain heal jump hitting your target for a decent amount. It can be a novice raidhealer without a good healing addon who don't see that you are already healing your target, effectively throwing in a fast heal on the target, pushing you into overhealing. Either case will mean you GHeal is doing more overhealing. And in either case, that's sniped healing that could've been used on a different target had you cast a flash heal instead. Effectively, using a GHeal will reduce the raidwide healing done in all three cases.

    That's why Flash Heal is better for healing than GHeal.

    --

    A Holy using PW:Shield has two issues. First, it's blocking very low amounts of damage unless you are a discipline priest. Unless there is a severe urgency, flash heal will heal for way more than a shield will block. PW:Shield is nice for increasing the maximum HP of a target, assuming he is already at max HP. But that's about it. It's not useless, but unless you cast it before the damage happened, it's not a spell you should cast. FHeal and guardian spirit are usually both a lot better, PW:Shield is only really there as a last chance retort if there is an extreme urgency and GS is on cooldown. Secondly, A holypriest PW:Shielding will usually get in the way of the discipline priest.

    --

    Renew is also a horribly bad spell for holy. Unless it ticks four times (that's 12 seconds, if your raid isn't healed up in 12 seconds consider firing your raidhealers!), a flash heal will always be better in any way possible. Renew is more expensive (assuming fheal glyphed), heals for less (unless 4 ticks apply), heals slower (1.5 sec vs 12/15 sec), and stands a much larger chance of getting overhealed. It also doesn't save the person in trouble. Renew can still be used pre-emptively, but that job is mostly what you have a druid for. Sure, help the druid out (works wonders on the malygos vortex), but if the damage already happened, flash heal is the better choice.

    --

    It's not that I want to spam flash heal. Far from it. It's just the best tool for the job. Ideally, I'd leave this damage to other healers, but we're down on healers these days. So I have to play the spammer, or the raid die. And that makes me a bit sad.
    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

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