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  1. #41

    Re: Disc vs Holy in raids

    First I have been 25 man raiding disc, and have seen no problems what so ever. The only thing lacking is a non party group heal, which will change with PoH in 3.1. Every class and spec in game right now brings some unique abilities to the table, putting them together is what makes for a better more diverse raid able to handle near any situation that should arise.

    The one thing i see missing in this thread and ignored by some cocky trolls, is the pure awesomeness of penanace. With moderate gear right now, my penance ticks for around 3.5k each tick= 10.5k healed in under a second. This also gives all 3 stacks of grace. Crit ticks range from 4.5k-6.5k, and proc divine aegis. Add in borrowed time and/or trinket procs, crits etc penance can heal around 15k in .5 seconds or less. Talented its on an 8 second cooldown, but anyone disputing Disc validity really can't ignore the importance of that kind of heal. I'll be the first to admit penance is a top spot for over healing, but raid healing right now is usually reduced to shield and possibly renew someone taking light damage, flash heals where needed, and throwing around penance near every time its up for any instant or big heals needed. It's also superior to a gheal when damage is incoming, so on a tank it keeps them topped off without to much over heal if timed properly.

    Previously disc was not a PvE healing build, but anyone that still believes that must not be playing wrath. Sure pallys and disc priests might serve near the same role, but a pally isn't always available nor would you stack 5 pallies just because of one of their strengths. Add to this near every BC holy pally I know has since swtiched to ret or prot, from what i've been told pally healing is /yawn now. Not that I don't have the same feeling at times, but priests just have a bigger bag of tricks to play with. Right now my guild has only 1 raiding holy pally, that can't make all raids. We typically run with Druid, holy priest, disc priest, shaman and then usually who ever else is available.

    In general healing right now is exteremly easy so cutting any *skilled* diverse healing class will only hurt you in the long run. It's been already said Uldar will be tuned assuming everyone is in full T7, so I really would like to talk to you people when 3.1 hits and you are saying where are all of the good geared disc priests and see they are happy in the guilds they are already in. It was the same reception for shadow priests in BC, no one wanted them due to past conceptions then so many people complained about not being able to find good shadow priests because they were all already in guilds that moved past preconceptions and saw the utility they brought to the raid.

  2. #42

    Re: Disc vs Holy in raids

    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaBaggle
    Disc is fucking terrible. You're literally gimping yourself and your raid by specing it and making everyone around you look terrible for having a player as bad as you around.
    Haha, you are funny. Registered just to respond to you and your retarded elitism. Maybe Discipline isn't as strong as Holy Paladins at the moment, but I guess you have to play every cookie cutter spec and go copy elitistjerks.com to be good at this game right? Pretty sure I raid disc and perform just fine, and you know why I spec it, because it's a fun play style. I also notice better mana regen as Discipline, and you bring a lot of utility if your raid is missing a Prot Paladin or a lock doesn't want to use a felhound.

    Here, check my armory http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...onmaw&n=Kasher. I have every server first for WotLK too (WAS REAL HARD DAWG). I also have Glory of the Raider and Heroic: Glory of the Raider both completed. Also, I am a two-time Gladiator and cleared up to M'uru in BC. My current guild killed Kil'Jaedan pre 3.0 (I was in a different guild at the time), and they seem to think I do a good job as disc.

    Go ahead and keep talking shit just because Holy Paladins are the FotM healer but I assure you a good Disc priest can hold their own in any raid. My assignment never dies and I cross heal to save people all the time, and that is ALL that matters as a healer. Meters are such a terrible way of judging heal "skill." Link your armory PizzaBaggles...if you have Immortal and Nightfall I will be somewhat impressed.

  3. #43

    Re: Disc vs Holy in raids

    While it's an interesting discussion. It really is an almost near pointless thread. Disc seems to be undergoing a pretty massive change in 3.1. As thus I think not only will disc be a viable spec for raiding but they'll also be changed to where they'll have 1 spec as pvp and another as pvp.

  4. #44

    Re: Disc vs Holy in raids

    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaBaggle
    Whoa, you found a priest in a raiding guild that specs Disc to PvP, breaking news right there, someone specing Disc for what you're supposed to spec disc for.
    Yeah, except you'll notice I- am missing multiple PvP talents...pretty sure that is my PvE Disc spec. I was just farming BG's this morning and didn't feel like respeccing. I still see you haven't posted your armory.

  5. #45

    Re: Disc vs Holy in raids

    Quote Originally Posted by Komedi
    tbh if you are having to have a discussion to PROVE ur worth as a Disc Healer then ur in the wrong guild. Why any 25 man group wouldnt see the importance of the likes of Devine Aegis, Grace with its 100% Proc from Penance and even Pain Suppression for the naabs that get in trouble is beyond me. Ur probably in a guild that dosn't even recognise that its ok to PWS ur MT now.

    Add to this that Disc is going to get "buffed" further in 3.1 with PWB and its a no brainer. No u'll never be on top of the healing charts but its your mitigation and utility as a Disc Healer that really makes you the natural choice to pair with a Pally of Druid on ur Single Target of choice.

    So much so that we dont bother with a Holy Priest now, Disc MT healer, Pallies, Shams and Druids have seen us complete the game to date.

    Disco FTW
    This

    Disc works, is a fun spec to play and isnt disadvantaged atm, we'll see more min-maxing in tier 8 and 9, lets hope they stay bout equal like blizz hopes!
    I tasted bacon.. one day..

  6. #46

    Re: Disc vs Holy in raids

    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaBaggle
    I wouldn't take the disc priest unless there were already 5 Paladins in the raid. With that being said, I would also take any class over a 6th Paladin.

    I didn't ignore it, it's just another terrible ability.
    1) There's no way you have so much haste that all 3 ticks occur in under a second 25% haste is 1.2 sec so i agree with you
    2) It's a heal with a travel time, negating the utility of it being instant cast travel time is milliseconds
    3) Same with it being channeled you can break channel if u need to do something else fast and have still done some healing, but channel is not much over 1 second anyway
    4) Positional and directional requirements, need to be facing the target you want to heal wrong you can be facing any way u like and you will turn to face as you cast, casting through yourself as you start

    Better option? Holy Shockpenance will generate additional shields for extra mitigation and keep the 25% armor buff up on tank, my imo they are comparable

  7. #47

    Re: Disc vs Holy in raids

    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaBaggle
    I wouldn't take the disc priest unless there were already 5 Paladins in the raid. With that being said, I would also take any class over a 6th Paladin.

    I didn't ignore it, it's just another terrible ability.
    1) There's no way you have so much haste that all 3 ticks occur in under a second
    2) It's a heal with a travel time, negating the utility of it being instant cast
    3) Same with it being channeled
    4) Positional and directional requirements, need to be facing the target you want to heal

    Better option? Holy Shock
    Actually your pretty wrong here... my base haste brings penance to .79seconds per tick i'll admit i was looking at that wrong today, as i said with borrowed time and or trinket procs it can come down to a .5 or less per tick (the first is instant), i will admit getting a haste proc at the right second is rare. You only need to be facing your target for the dps side of the spell, for the healing side you instant turn to face your target. Travel time does not negate its instant cast when the first tick let alone the entire channel duration htis the target in about the same time as a single flash heal cast. This has saved raid members many times when someone is taking a lot of damage since that first tick usually keeps they from dying and then the other two ticks give them much needed health in well under the cast time of a gheal which would heal for the same.

    Holy shock? I'm not a pally, have no desire to play a pally. Just because you fap to your pally doesn't make it the only choice. If your bringing 5 pallies to a raid your retarded and missing out on a some major abilities other classes bring to a raid. How many hots do pallies have? How many party heals do pallies have? If your gimping your raid with no pom, chain heal, CoH, PoH, hots etc I really can't wait to see how much you will fail when content ramps up in difficulty.

  8. #48

    Re: Disc vs Holy in raids

    Quote Originally Posted by palamina
    1) 25% haste is 1.2 sec so i agree with you
    First off, 25% haste might be, but we have more haste than 0% without Borrowed Time. I agree that less than 1 second is unlikely, but in the middle of a bloodlust or once we get to a sweet spot on haste with Borrowed Time, having a 1.0 sec isn't really all that far away.

    3)you can break channel if u need to do something else fast and have still done some healing, but channel is not much over 1 second anyway
    Channel isn't all that long, the only reason it's treated like an "instant" spell is it applies to Twin Disciplines (5% increased healing) and Mental Agility (10% reduced cost).
    4)wrong you can be facing any way u like and you will turn to face as you cast, casting through yourself as you start
    Supposed to be fixed in 3.0.3, but finally got around to it (without patch notes) for 3.0.8

    penance will generate additional shields for extra mitigation and keep the 25% armor buff up on tank, my imo they are comparable
    Holy Shock might be "true-instant" but Penance is "almost-free" and uses-but-doesn't-steal a haste proc, let alone applying 3% damage reduction, 6% increased healing, triple chance to crit for armor (25% bonus) and damage absorption. I'd say Penance is not comparable, it's better.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  9. #49

    Re: Disc vs Holy in raids

    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaBaggle
    Bosanc > Grace.
    BoSanc + Grace > BoSanc > Grace. Proof: here

    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaBaggle
    In terms of having a heal that actually heals right when you need a tank to get a heal, Holy Shock >>>>>>>> Penance. The side stuff isn't unique to penance. Holy Shock critting will also reduce the cast time of holy light by a full second providing you with possibly the fastest and largest hps heal by a large margin.
    Let's do a little counting here. Holy Paladin pulls out a Holy Shock, and Holy Lightx2 combo, assuming Holy Shock crits (quite possible not to). 1.5 sec GCD, 1.5 sec GCD, and 2.0 sec cast. 5 seconds. Okay, look at a Disc priest. Power Word: Shield, hasted Penance, hasted Greater Heal. 1.5 seconds, 1.2 seconds, 1.7 seconds. 4.4 seconds, for roughly the same HP "healed" except one counts as a health buffer.

    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaBaggle
    That was just an example of a situation where I would consider bringing a disc priest, simply because I would never bring 6 pallies over anything else at all. I don't raid with 5 pallies, which is why I also don't raid with a disc priest.
    Saying you don't raid with 5 pallies is not a reason to not raid with one disc priest. True story
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  10. #50

    Re: Disc vs Holy in raids

    PizzaBaggle im not sure wether your ignorant or arrgoant or just a plain jackass...




































    I really dont

  11. #51

    Re: Disc vs Holy in raids

    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaBaggle
    If this actually does turn out to be true, then this goes in direct contradiction to a very detailed Blizzard listing of exactly what buffs do and do not stack. Will get back with testing on this myself

    Some bad pallies you're running around with the 0 haste and poor specs there. Your disc timings are wrong too as are your heal estimates. Also, you're really questioning Holy Shock criting and completely ignoring the large possibility of the tank being under the effects of the weakend soul debuff or penance being on cooldown? What happens in that scenario? Stick your thumb up your butt and hope a friendly ret pally DIs you so your raid can recover from the wipe quickly? For someone claiming to love and play the spec, you sure don't know much about it, or about other classes.
    You're right, forgive me for taking a couple weeks off until 3.1 after getting Nightfall and H:GotR. Also, as for comparing cooldowns, Holy Shock has one, and what if it doesn't crit (yes, it does happen). Tada, you're stuck with your 2 seconds (before haste) regular cast time of HL, so much for your "fastest" spell. And if I recall correctly, Divine Plea changes are going to screw over HL spamfests anyways.

    This also isn't a discussion over some extended time frame of your choosing. Your tank is suddenly dangerously low, the next hit is going to kill him, a parry hasted one of which can come any millisecond. Your choices are an instant holy shock, or guardian spirit, both of which lead to a 100% chance of your tank not dying. OR you can go with some goofy combo of a channeled 2 second heal with a directional requirement and travel time. Hmm... Yeah, no idea why I'm not being convinced here.
    The directional component was stated to be fixed in 3.0.3, and while that didn't happen, 3.0.8 DID fix that. I've said this twice already. And Borrowed Time is pretty reliable, seeing as it's guaranteed on any PW:S, rather than an "if Holy Shock crits", which brings Penance down quite a chunk.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  12. #52

    Re: Disc vs Holy in raids

    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaBaggle
    This also isn't a discussion over some extended time frame of your choosing. Your tank is suddenly dangerously low, the next hit is going to kill him, a parry hasted one of which can come any millisecond. Your choices are an instant holy shock, or guardian spirit, both of which lead to a 100% chance of your tank not dying. OR you can go with some goofy combo of a channeled 2 second heal with a directional requirement and travel time. Hmm... Yeah, no idea why I'm not being convinced here.
    It's a fair enough question.

    1) I go with Holy Shock. This will generally have a 50% chance for ~4.8k healing and ~50% for a larger crit hit. I follow this up with a 10k holy light.
    2) I throw guardian spirit and start casting a greater heal for ~10k.
    3) I throw PW:S for ~5.5k protection + a 1.1k heal. I follow this up with penance for ~10k.

    These options look pretty similar to me. I have to say, this scenario (target is very low very quickly) is exactly where Disc shines. Pallies have Holy Shock and LoH for this situation. Disc has PoM, Shield, and Penance all generating significant front loaded healing enough to save most of these kind of situations. As a general call, we're usually not talking about the tank here anyway. The only thing that hits the tank that hard these days is a Sarth3D fight and there you're mitigating the damage with cooldowns. No, it's more likely you're looking at a mage or rogue who got hit with something they shouldn't have and needs a save.

    No, if you want to argue Holy over Disc, you're going the wrong way. The problem with Disc isn't this scenario - it's its overall throughput. Between CoH, more PoMs, and well stoked gheals and flashes, Holy can flat out put more healing into a raid (at least Naxx style ones). Bringing a Disc priest is a nifty luxury that can do some cool things for your raid but even if you add in the shields you don't match Holy's effective output.

  13. #53

    Re: Disc vs Holy in raids

    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaBaggle
    I wouldn't take the disc priest unless there were already 5 Paladins in the raid. With that being said, I would also take any class over a 6th Paladin.

    I didn't ignore it, it's just another terrible ability.
    1) There's no way you have so much haste that all 3 ticks occur in under a second
    2) It's a heal with a travel time, negating the utility of it being instant cast
    3) Same with it being channeled
    4) Positional and directional requirements, need to be facing the target you want to heal

    Better option? Holy Shock
    Every point u mentionned are wrong, except for the channel aspect, which really isn't a problem.

    *cough* Power Infusion *cough*

  14. #54

    Re: Disc vs Holy in raids

    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaBaggle
    I'm a person that realizes a terrible spec/class when he sees it, and is honest and blunt enough to talk about it. Seems I'm stepping on the feelings of some people who actually thought they were being useful, oh well, sucks for them, maybe they'll become better players for it or keep gimping their raids, their choice.
    Thus in fact proving himself to be an arrogant jackass. Or maybe he just plain sucks. Who knows or cares.

    I know that Disc can heal any content perfectly well. Good enough so that they can do the job of MT healer with ease. Will this hold up through the harder content? Maybe not - but as Blizz are contanstly changing stuff that isn't really relevant (don't even know what the gear or fights are going to be so i'm not going to worry)

    I wouldn't put a disc priest in as raid healer - unless I had to. Just as I wouldn't put a holy priest or holy pally in as MT healer.
    I wouldn't put a holy priest or Shaman in as MT healer for the same reasons.

    For me the bottom line is in my guild we have more pallies than flies on... And as they are really ordinary raid healers they get MT healer job. So priests are Holy. But I have specced disc. Did the job. Yes even with somewhat suspect gear I did the job. The MT lived.

    So the guys like the jerk quoted is an idiot - who doesn't understand that the only thing that matters about healing is who lives and who doesn't die. When talking about specs sucking I would stick to the ones that can be proved to suck - which is normally DPS and a bunch of meters. Meters rule DPS - live or die rules healing

  15. #55

    Re: Disc vs Holy in raids

    penance is 8 second cd
    pi is 1:40 (but i always cast on top dps)
    pw:s is 4 sec cd so u cast on 1 or 2 OT before back to MT to maintain borrowed time
    borrowed time is probably a bug.

    regarding channel it is infact instant only the animation takes time, like when u fly past a drake take dmg but dont get hit by spell for moments later. it doesnt matter range of target they get last heal exactly the length of cast time of penance from first hit.

  16. #56

    Re: Disc vs Holy in raids

    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaBaggle
    Considering the shield debuff is 15 seconds, and the penance cooldown is 10 seconds, the chances that you'll have NEITHER when a tank is low is high. Much higher than the chances of not having a 6 second CD ability which doesn't debuff the target. Also, like I said, you're changing the scenario presented here. The only reason I even mentioned holy light is because you were talking about unrelated penance things. You still have not yet addressed my point. You tried to present penance as some good emergency heal, it's not, not even close
    4 second cooldown on Power Word: Shield, and surprisingly, that 25% haste Proc still pops up if you shield an OT or any random raid member.

    Relying on double dipping on a buff is what mages did with arcane, it lasted all of 48 hours. Hotfixing this bug for disc would make them even more worthless, so enjoy it while it lasts, but it indeed is a bug. Also, if I really feel like it I can make HS crit, but it's not needed.
    So you're talking about cooldowns to guarantee my HPS when you bring in talk of a 3 minute auto-crit? Yeah okay there mister hypocrisy. So tell me how that Divine Plea nerf goes, and that you can't just faceroll your mana-inefficient heal for 20 minutes, when disc priests will bring the same "health"-per-second but surprisingly not go oom where the HL spamfest does.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  17. #57

    Re: Disc vs Holy in raids

    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaBaggle

    Also, you're really questioning Holy Shock criting and completely ignoring the large possibility of the tank being under the effects of the weakend soul debuff or penance being on cooldown? What happens in that scenario? Stick your thumb up your butt and hope a friendly ret pally DIs you so your raid can recover from the wipe quickly? For someone claiming to love and play the spec, you sure don't know much about it, or about other classes.

    This also isn't a discussion over some extended time frame of your choosing. Your tank is suddenly dangerously low, the next hit is going to kill him, a parry hasted one of which can come any millisecond. Your choices are an instant holy shock, or guardian spirit, both of which lead to a 100% chance of your tank not dying. OR you can go with some goofy combo of a channeled 2 second heal with a directional requirement and travel time. Hmm... Yeah, no idea why I'm not being convinced here.
    I guess the only 3 spells we have is PW:S Pennece and Thumb up our ass. the fact that you mention that we are the only healers in the raid? the point is As a Mt healer You shouldnt let a tank to get to that point.

    And hahaha make every situation in your favour? How bout you just got hit with a nasty flame breath so did the tank,now realizing your 2 other heals have died.now your bubble is down and you have a split second to decide heal your the main tank what do you do.

    in that case a disc can Binding heal Pom only few examples

  18. #58

    Re: Disc vs Holy in raids

    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaBaggle
    Considering the shield debuff is 15 seconds, and the penance cooldown is 10 seconds, the chances that you'll have NEITHER when a tank is low is high. Much higher than the chances of not having a 6 second CD ability which doesn't debuff the target. Also, like I said, you're changing the scenario presented here. The only reason I even mentioned holy light is because you were talking about unrelated penance things. You still have not yet addressed my point. You tried to present penance as some good emergency heal, it's not, not even close

    Relying on double dipping on a buff is what mages did with arcane, it lasted all of 48 hours. Hotfixing this bug for disc would make them even more worthless, so enjoy it while it lasts, but it indeed is a bug. Also, if I really feel like it I can make HS crit, but it's not needed.
    You really need to stop posting in this thread because every reply you make it is more and more obvious you don't know what your talking about and you think way to much of your pally. A Bad player will always be a bad player... talking about the CD on sheild and penance, I don't know how fail you are but I know how to manage my cooldowns wisely. Add to that talented penance CD is 8 seconds, to say that penance won't be available when needed on an 8 second cd well I don't think I really even need to explain that one. Penance is in fact an awesome emergency heal for anyone in the raid not just the tank, while I will agree Naxx is no real test of any ability right now I would give penance a lot of credit for 0 deaths on 25 man KT and other encounters that can have spike raid damage. It is also the best HPM priest healing spell all around, it is cheaper then a flash heal, channel time being pretty close to cast time for flash heal, and heals for as much as or more than a gheal. Penance is pretty much 3 flash heals in the time it takes for one. While with other healers in play there is a fair chance at overheal, on a tank taking consistent damage there is a good chance each tick landing an effective heal therefore proccing rapture returning enough mana to bring the actual cost down to about 100-150 mana for a 10-15k heal.

    As far as shield... I have no idea where your coming from on "double dipping" and saying a bug will be fixed, have you read the tooltip for borrowed time? There is no bug, casting shield on *any* target grants 25% haste on *any* spell that is cast next. Add in glyph of PW:S that is an instant 1-1.5 heal then 4k+ mitigation, rapture also gives mana back for dmg absorbed by shield = a 5k+ "heal" costing around 400-450 mana. Follow this with penanace and it is 15-20k in healing/mitigation for 500-600 mana in under 2 seconds. Add to this the 3 chances of a divine aegis proc, for another 2-3k mitigation AND using rapture again. So all of that factored in there is the posibility of 17-23k+ hps for around 200-400 mana. So disc is pretty fail right??

    While I won't claim to know or care about pally spells, it is fairly obvious to me that disc is a very good and very efficent healing spec and most important it's an actual fun healing spec to play. Something you really seem to be missing is Disc =/= holy pally in anyway. They might have some similarities, and similar strengths but it's still apples and oranges... again I'll ask how many HoTs do pallies have? How many party/raid heals do pallies have? While these aren't exclusive to disc, it certainly adds to the diversity of the spec. Trying to closely compare a holy pally to a disc priest is just stupid, they are both great tank healers but do so in very different ways. Blizzard has made so many efforts to make near all specs equal, if disc is still behind holy pallies disc will get buffed or holy will get nerfed... oh wait thats happening already, but hey thanks for suggesting that such action is needed.

  19. #59

    Re: Disc vs Holy in raids

    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaBaggle
    Debuff, not cooldown.
    emm yes the target gets a debuff but the spell is on a 4 sec CD http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=48065

    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaBaggle
    A holy priest could cast binding heal just as well.
    as i recall any priest can cast binding heal. so think its a win to the disc priest.

    well i normaly dont play disc but when i have to heal/pvp i play disc it is more fun! there are a lot of things a disc prist can that a holy pala can not, and diversaty is a good thing!
    lests look at what they bring to a raid when speced pve http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?prie...h=120506020306

    we have Pain suppression 40% damage on a 2½ min cd.
    Power infusion 20% faster cast rate and 20% chepper spells. and its under a 2 min cd.
    Divine spirit just a flat 80 spi to all the spell casters this is a littel damage bonus and the druids/priest are happy.

    if those 3 things are not good then you fail...
    since it can not beworth haveing 4 palas in one raid there are to few blessings for that. and i woud rater have a dic priest than a 3ed pala.. eaven to say if the raid only had 2 priest i woud have one shadow and one disc. since holy raid healing can be covered by a shamy or druid. but now we are looking at how you can raid stack. and well thats not the topic.
    i woud any day take a disc priest to a raid.

  20. #60

    Re: Disc vs Holy in raids

    Your guild is terrible if they still have not figgured out that disc is great for tank healing and topping people off.

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