This is what we expect in 3.1?

[wyzard]

Try playing as an enhancement shaman....

But really guys, your out DPSing class's that have better gear with ease, you dont see string of nerfs incoming? The DK class will recieve what the shaman have been getting for close to 2 years now, nerfs, with very minor buffs, which result in overall reduction of damage output. Tanking specs will be left the same, or maybe even slightly lowered.

These lists where you have 3-4 nerfs that you see are very overpowered, then list 30 things you want buffed, really look at what you are capable of now then rethink it.

Hardly out dpsing every class on every fight with ease.

http://www.wowmeteronline.com/rank/classrank/6

Fights with AOE involved the Dk shines. Otherwise they are pretty much in the mix with everyone else.

[Gomexus]

Wanna know what I am expecting?

1) Clear cut role defining specs. Blizzard wants dual spec to be the new thing...and atm...as a Frost tank I can MT anything in game, or throw on dps gear, switch presence, and top charts in 25 mans. Not only is that ridiculous...it's also not what Blizzard intended for DK's...they want us to tank OR dps with any tree...not tank AND dps with any tree.

2) Big ticket talents will see a shift in positioning. Gargoyle/UB switch has already been announced. I feel like others such as Dark Conviction, Killing Machine, Annihilation, and Howling Blast will be moved further down the tree's as well. These moves will probably correspond to pvp type utility being moved up the tree's. This will decrease dps overall, but increase utility. Think Howling Blast switching places with Hungering Cold, Dark Conviction switching places with Bloody Vengeance...things that will decrease damage from cross spec instead of straight nerfs to abilities.

3) Ability changes to affect dps. Scourge Strike will probably become physical based instead of shadow for damage application, meaning it's damage will decrease. Plague Strike buff (nerf?) to remove de-HoT component but increase damage. The de-HoT component will still be needed...without a class to counter resto druids it will be hell in pvp just like it used to be...HoT removal may get stuck to a lower tier talent such as CF/EP, or something totally new (doubtful).

By the time the dust settles I am really leaning towards:

*DW pve nerfed to the ground
*UH being a utility/pvp tree
*Frost being a tank spec
*Blood being the new PvE dps spec

Blood is heavily single target based and it seems odd to have a melee dps doing 8k+ dps during AE, so I believe they will try to move Blood to the front for PvE dps.

Unholy will offer some very good raid utility and maintain pvp survivability, dps will be on par with Blood, but slightly lower than Blood for single targets.

Frost is already edging ahead of Blood and Unholy for tanking and the upcoming changes to UBA could push it ahead...especially if couple with changes to acclimation and Frost aura to allow them to stack with other resist spells. There will still be situations where Blood or Unholy tanking is beneficial, but for the most part I think Frost will be the "tank" spec...instead of the blurred lines we have now.

[onfire9123]

as bad as i am at PVP, if i can take down a paladin after he jumps me and burns all his extra lives CD's, the class needs to be nerfed.

[tvveeder]

Gom I kind of like the blurred lines for all the different potential, but I agree they will try to define things a bit more. Frost will still probably be able to do DPS but with certain changes it can certainly be defined as THE best tank spec as opposed to the balance tank spec. The thing I don't understand is why people write off blood as a viable/good PvP spec. Honestly I think it is the best spec to traverse both PvP and PvE due to it's situational CD talents and regenerative capabilities. Now I'll admit for PvP purposes they may not be the best damage but I think blood is the candidate that is most viable for traversing both PvP and PvE.

To Beefstyx... QF-Fuckin-T. I've been saying since day one that DK's are not invincible or unstoppable because they are susceptible kiting (even with death grip and CoI) because they have no mechanics to break the slowing affect unless you bring in an outside source (such as racials or trinkets). Not only that but if you don't get Lichborne then you are easily fear kited as well (or if lichborne is on CD). So for anyone to say they are OP or invincible... remember pallies. To me a Prot pally is the most OP PvP spec right now.

[tvveeder]

as bad as i am at PVP, if i can take down a paladin after he jumps me and burns all his extra lives CD's, the class needs to be nerfed.

Then you have been fighting some shitty pallies...

Ret having incredibly high burst damage, instant cast self heals, bubbles, stuns and incapacitates, and as the fall back LoH... they are insane.

Prot in good gear having 29k+ health, great avoidance, mitigation, and spell mitigation, and still being able to do good DPS is ungodly. They are far worse than a DK tank. Not to mention on top of that they still have the ability to bubble, LoH, and stun.



The only reason people keep QQ about DK's is because they are new to the game and you have to learn new strats against a different set of players. Let's break down a DK compare to other classes...

DK:
1 talent that breaks fear
No way of breaking slowing effects or CC's without racials or trinkets.
1 ability to close ground (death grip)
1 ability to snare/slow people that is actually useful but causes no damage.
1 spell interrupt (melee range) and 1 silence on a 1 minute CD.
1 stun if specc'ed unholy via ghoul
Can death strike heal but loses damage, and can rune tap if spec'ed into it.
IBF (15% damage reduction and resists stuns)

Rogue:
Stealth
Vanish
CoS
Sprint
Stuns
High burst potential
Incapacitates (blind, gouge, sap)
Slowing poisons that can constantly apply
High melee avoidance, susceptible to spells (when CoS is on CD)

Mage:
Has CC
Can slow with FB, FFB, Slow and consistently apply it while doing damage at the same time
Frost Nova
Lots of instant cast spells
High burst damage along with talents to kite
High AoE damage
Low armor, but has shields
Ice Block
Blink
Counterspell
Spellsteal

Paladin:
1 stun
1 incapacitate (from talents)
Bubble x 2
Lay on Hands
Ability to heal
High burst damage
Hand of Freedom
Prot pally has avengers shield to slow targets and close ground

This is a list of some of the classes I would say are some of the best DPS in PvP or have the best utility/survivability solo in PvP. You are going to tell me that DK's are overpowered in comparison to a mage who has more escape tactics and kiting tactics than anyone in the game, shields to mitigate damage, ice block for the oh shit situations, and has some insane burst damage?

You are going to tell me a DK is OP when a rogue can stun lock people to death, and have more escape tactics and CD's to burn than any other class in the game? If a rogue is half way decent and burns his CD's on you... you are dead no matter what and you can't escape from him.

You are going to tell me a DK is OP in comparison to a ret or prot pally who has arguably the best survivability in the game on top of being able to put out some crazy damage? Not to mention they have the ability to be immune to all snare and slowing affects, have a ranged stun and incapacitate (if they spec for it) or a ranged slowing and damaging ability (if they spec for it).

Let's see strats... mages are susceptible if you can survive their CD's and break their kites or get the jump on them and burst them down before they can do anything to you, rogues are susceptible if anyone manages to get a hold of them, pallies... well what exactly are they susceptible to? Multiple people? Being lucky enough to fight one when his CD's are burned? I will never agree with anyone saying DK's are overpowered in PvP unless they can show some evidence they are OP. Give a plausible argument and I may consider the fact they are OP. They have no escape tactics and almost every class has tactics to escape their slows and abilities to close in. So you tell me where they are OP and invincible. Maybe if they have a healer... but if that's the case isn't a warrior and pally just as invincible as they are?

[Marvdatboi]

I'm no advocate for nerfing of any class but "shirley" you see some sort of nerf coming to Dk's.

[zold]

Wanna know what I am expecting?

1) Clear cut role defining specs. Blizzard wants dual spec to be the new thing...and atm...as a Frost tank I can MT anything in game, or throw on dps gear, switch presence, and top charts in 25 mans. Not only is that ridiculous...it's also not what Blizzard intended for DK's...they want us to tank OR dps with any tree...not tank AND dps with any tree.

2) Big ticket talents will see a shift in positioning. Gargoyle/UB switch has already been announced. I feel like others such as Dark Conviction, Killing Machine, Annihilation, and Howling Blast will be moved further down the tree's as well. These moves will probably correspond to pvp type utility being moved up the tree's. This will decrease dps overall, but increase utility. Think Howling Blast switching places with Hungering Cold, Dark Conviction switching places with Bloody Vengeance...things that will decrease damage from cross spec instead of straight nerfs to abilities.

3) Ability changes to affect dps. Scourge Strike will probably become physical based instead of shadow for damage application, meaning it's damage will decrease. Plague Strike buff (nerf?) to remove de-HoT component but increase damage. The de-HoT component will still be needed...without a class to counter resto druids it will be hell in pvp just like it used to be...HoT removal may get stuck to a lower tier talent such as CF/EP, or something totally new (doubtful).

By the time the dust settles I am really leaning towards:

*DW pve nerfed to the ground
*UH being a utility/pvp tree
*Frost being a tank spec
*Blood being the new PvE dps spec

Blood is heavily single target based and it seems odd to have a melee dps doing 8k+ dps during AE, so I believe they will try to move Blood to the front for PvE dps.

Unholy will offer some very good raid utility and maintain pvp survivability, dps will be on par with Blood, but slightly lower than Blood for single targets.

Frost is already edging ahead of Blood and Unholy for tanking and the upcoming changes to UBA could push it ahead...especially if couple with changes to acclimation and Frost aura to allow them to stack with other resist spells. There will still be situations where Blood or Unholy tanking is beneficial, but for the most part I think Frost will be the "tank" spec...instead of the blurred lines we have now.

You have some good points here, except I don't think Blizzard will only allow the frost tree to be the tank spec. They've said this in the past that they want all DK specs to be viable tanking specs.

[tvveeder]

You have some good points here, except I don't think Blizzard will only allow the frost tree to be the tank spec. They've said this in the past that they want all DK specs to be viable tanking specs.

All would be viable, but you would basically have Blood for the best survivability spec due to self heals, raid utility/heals, and a 1 minute last stand that increases healing done to you too. Unholy would be the spell mitigation/avoidance tree (especially if you spec unholy/blood and get spell deflection). Frost will be the overall mitigation spec and probably be a bit better for overall tanking. All would still be able to tank, but each tree would have it's specialties.

[Gomexus]

All would be viable, but you would basically have Blood for the best survivability spec due to self heals, raid utility/heals, and a 1 minute last stand that increases healing done to you too. Unholy would be the spell mitigation/avoidance tree (especially if you spec unholy/blood and get spell deflection). Frost will be the overall mitigation spec and probably be a bit better for overall tanking. All would still be able to tank, but each tree would have it's specialties.

Exactly my point

Blood or Unholy tanking would be niche roles and Frost would be the spec for 99% of the fights.

I don't necessarily like what I posted...nor do I want it to happen...I quite enjoy being able to MT or top dps meters with the same spec.

What I posted is what I believe Blizzard may do to try and fix DK's. Right now we are just too good, in all aspects of the game, not just pvp or just pve...we're just ridiculous.

1) Easiest to level...not because we start at 55...but because no other class at 58 is as good as we are at solo'ing.
2) Topping dps meters in pve...using 1.5 speed weps (and not being a rogue to do it)...
3) Topping dps meters in pve...using tank specs/glyphs...
4) Tanking ability that rivals or surpasses every other tank class in every encounter currently in game.
5) Tons and tons and tons of useful pvp/pve raid and group utility, we have both melee and spell damage buffs that can all be running at the same time and all of which increase our own dps by leaps and bounds.

There's just so much going for DK's right now I personally don't see how Blizzard can keep all 3 trees balanced for tanking and dps...while also comprehensively nerfing our damage across the board...something has to give somewhere. If damage get's nerfed too much then tanking may have threat issues in late Ulduar (how much AP you think you will gain in tank gear compared to SP and AP of your dps?).

I am honestly dreading the release of the Phase 1 notes...I'm almost willing to bet on a list of 56 things that looks like:

Nerf x 55
HB CD has been removed

But I guess we'll see :-\

[Utal]

Why would Blizzard nerf Death knights? They are Blizzard's Pet class.. they fucking love you guys.

[Kelias]

Exactly my point

Blood or Unholy tanking would be niche roles and Frost would be the spec for 99% of the fights.

I don't necessarily like what I posted...nor do I want it to happen...I quite enjoy being able to MT or top dps meters with the same spec.

What I posted is what I believe Blizzard may do to try and fix DK's. Right now we are just too good, in all aspects of the game, not just pvp or just pve...we're just ridiculous.

1) Easiest to level...not because we start at 55...but because no other class at 58 is as good as we are at solo'ing.
2) Topping dps meters in pve...using 1.5 speed weps (and not being a rogue to do it)...
3) Topping dps meters in pve...using tank specs/glyphs...
4) Tanking ability that rivals or surpasses every other tank class in every encounter currently in game.
5) Tons and tons and tons of useful pvp/pve raid and group utility, we have both melee and spell damage buffs that can all be running at the same time and all of which increase our own dps by leaps and bounds.

There's just so much going for DK's right now I personally don't see how Blizzard can keep all 3 trees balanced for tanking and dps...while also comprehensively nerfing our damage across the board...something has to give somewhere. If damage get's nerfed too much then tanking may have threat issues in late Ulduar (how much AP you think you will gain in tank gear compared to SP and AP of your dps?).

I am honestly dreading the release of the Phase 1 notes...I'm almost willing to bet on a list of 56 things that looks like:

Nerf x 55
HB CD has been removed

But I guess we'll see :-\

1) Utterly irrelevant.
2) Wrong.
3) Also wrong.
4) Laughably wrong.
5) Most which are shared by other classes.

DKs are not doing significantly more or less damage than anyone else, our tanking is roughly par. 3.1 will probably buff blood, make us more dependent on diseases (possibly shifting more of oblits damage to bonus from diseases up), move some of the frost tanking talents up the tree, etc. It will not have massive nerfs.

[Bullshifter]

Gnomexus are you really topping 25 man damage meters in your tank spec with dps gear on? I know we can do decent dps tank spec'd, but that seems a little bit of a stretch. I might have to respec tank and leave my dps gear on and just see

[Gomexus]

1) Utterly irrelevant.

When speaking comprehensively you must also take into account 55-79...in which case we are the most OP class...so it is relevant.

2) Wrong.

32/38+1 specs are still doing insane dps even after KM changes...even if they are not #1 every encounter to be able to use rep reward weapons and top dmg meters at this stage is a bit too much.

3) Also wrong.

Not sure what your tanks are doing when they switch to dps but I can still throw out 3k dps single target as Frost tank/glyph'd using dps gear...5k+ easily on trash...4-5k on overall.

4) Laughably wrong.

I can give you a long list of why DK's make as good or better tanks than every other tanking class...but if you need me to it means you're not going to admit it either way...but just an fyi...warriors are not the best MT anymore...group with a well geared/played DK tank and you'll see what I mean.

5) Most which are shared by other classes.

The only class that can single handedly buff dps as well as we can is shaman...and we can do all of it without having to choose X buff or Y buff like they have to with totems...again, like shaman, we're the only class that gains benefit from spell dmg and melee damage modifiers, except unlike shaman our dps for 2/3 tree's is roughly 50/50 spell/melee so we benefit two fold, whereas an ELemental Shaman gaining AP doesn't gain a lot of dps...Enhancement gains a decent amount of dps through spell damage modifiers...but no where near 50/50.

DKs are not doing significantly more or less damage than anyone else, our tanking is roughly par. 3.1 will probably buff blood, make us more dependent on diseases (possibly shifting more of oblits damage to bonus from diseases up), move some of the frost tanking talents up the tree, etc. It will not have massive nerfs.

I didn't mean we were shooting 2k MORE dps than anyone else...but we are still topping meters and have rivaled classes who Blizzard has admitted were OP and then nerfed (BM hunters) BM hunters were not doing 2k more than us before...they were sitting maybe 100-200 more dps ahead and they got nerfed...so what makes you think we won't be if we're 100-200 above the rest?

Tanking talents will probably stay in the same place...pvp talents up...dps talents down...imo.  They've already said they want to push some pvp talents higher in the trees...and if they are moving up...something has to move down to take their place.

Gnomexus are you really topping 25 man damage meters in your tank spec with dps gear on?   I know we can do decent dps tank spec'd, but that seems a little bit of a stretch.   I might have to respec tank and leave my dps gear on and just see

The main 25's I have done recently are OS and Military quarter.  For OS I was dps the whole raid...tank spec'd and glyph'd.  I finished #1 in Dmg Done...#3 in Dps for overall values.  Single Target against Sartharion I was #1 Dmg Done and #3 Dps as well.

This was with 4 other DK's in the group...all of which were dps spec'd and glyph'd 2 of which had better gear than I do for dps.  For Dps I was beat by my brother who plays a SP and a Mage who was in full 25m gear...the margin of dps difference was small.  Both the mage and SP ran around 3.8-3.9k and I came in at about 3.4-3.5k.

Using HoW everytime it's up and skipping PS all together.  2x BS for death runes then 3x IT + HB + FS dumps...not neccessarily int hat order mind you...but I basically just generate as much RP as possible and spam FS...Rime procs I'd throw another IT and a PS.

Maybe I just run with crappy dps I dunno, on the 25m OS everyone in top 10 was doing 2.9k+ and the run went quick and smooth...hell I got a guild recruiter riding my tail because of my performance so I am assuming I did well.

Edit: IT, DnD, FS for majors...Raise Dead, Pestilence, HoW for minor's...I have merciless killing in my tank build...laugh it up lol...but I recently got rid of both frost Aura and Acclimation and had 5 extra points with very little to put them in...I took Merciless Killing because I do end up Dps'ing often since I can switch gear/presence and do better dps than a war/pally attempting the same (we have no bear tanks atm but I assume they can do about the same).

Edit2: Build+Glyph's:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...h=091210060504

The only thing I might change is Morbidity...-3 from it and cap out Epidemic and throw two into either Frost Aura or possibly Acclimation whichever seems better after patch.

[psicorp]

/SNIP

The main 25's I have done recently
/SNIP

while anecdotal evidence gets a worse wrap then it deserves, as it can be quite useful, it is helpful to temper it woth more general data. since what you said seemed to be quite reasonable, i obtained some statistics from WoWmeter to see if they cooberate your claims

http://www.wowmeteronline.com/search/boss/1633

this is a sample dps patchwork chart. i figured patchwork would do for a good benchmark assesment. i went down about 10 of the top dps charts. DKs failed to top even one of them, though in a rare case there would be one who through superior gear or skill, might break the top 5. generally, it was numbers 6-10 before DKs began to show up. i did note that DKs were doing a little better as i went down the list, suggesting DKs may start better but scale worse then the more pure dps charts. i find this quite likely as many of our abilities have flat damage increases, such as blood strike and obliterate.

there are tests from many other fights, your welcome to key in any you wish but i found this trend to be pretty equivilant in most major fights.

[Kelias]

When speaking comprehensively you must also take into account 55-79...in which case we are the most OP class...so it is relevant.

No, ya don't, because blizzard does not balance around 1-79, they balance around 80. Granted extreme cases warrant inspection but there is absolutely no reason to make leveling harder.

32/38+1 specs are still doing insane dps even after KM changes...even if they are not #1 every encounter to be able to use rep reward weapons and top dmg meters at this stage is a bit too much.

Elitist jerks thread on highest dps DK specs does indeed show DKs doing between 5k to 7k dps on perfect fights with excellent gear and consumables, but in most cases said DKs are less than 1% above or below the other classes in the raid.

Not sure what your tanks are doing when they switch to dps but I can still throw out 3k dps single target as Frost tank/glyph'd using dps gear...5k+ easily on trash...4-5k on overall.

Depends, but mostly a DK tank spec is very similar to a dps spec. Trash does not count for serious consideration of dps, especially as frost since you can do rather ridiculous multi-target dps even while doing crap dps on bosses.

I can give you a long list of why DK's make as good or better tanks than every other tanking class...but if you need me to it means you're not going to admit it either way...but just an fyi...warriors are not the best MT anymore...group with a well geared/played DK tank and you'll see what I mean.

You typed up this long post but you won't cite? I'm not going to argue that they're significantly better or worse because frankly, they're not. The key word here is significant. Indeed saying that they're as good as or better simply implies that they are on par or slightly better which frankly is not of any interest to me.

[quote]
The only class that can single handedly buff dps as well as we can is shaman...and we can do all of it without having to choose X buff or Y buff like they have to with totems...again, like shaman, we're the only class that gains benefit from spell dmg and melee damage modifiers, except unlike shaman our dps for 2/3 tree's is roughly 50/50 spell/melee so we benefit two fold, whereas an ELemental Shaman gaining AP doesn't gain a lot of dps...Enhancement gains a decent amount of dps through spell damage modifiers...but no where near 50/50.[quote]

Yes, but our buffs are spec reliant and mostly overlapped by other classes. In other words you won't, in most cases, be bringing a DK for their buffs. Benefit from buffs is twofold? Well, sort of, but not really. None of the specs do 50/50 melee/spell, unholy and frost are heavily skewed toward spell and blood is heavily skewed toward spell.

I didn't mean we were shooting 2k MORE dps than anyone else...but we are still topping meters and have rivaled classes who Blizzard has admitted were OP and then nerfed (BM hunters) BM hunters were not doing 2k more than us before...they were sitting maybe 100-200 more dps ahead and they got nerfed...so what makes you think we won't be if we're 100-200 above the rest?

100-200? Hmm? I'm looking at meters and seeing a lot of classes very close or above our dps. The problem with hunters was they were doing 1k-2k more dps than everyone else in terrible gear. Pre-fix I couldn't touch our hunters, post-fix we're about even (we've geared at roughly the same rate).

Tanking talents will probably stay in the same place...pvp talents up...dps talents down...imo. They've already said they want to push some pvp talents higher in the trees...and if they are moving up...something has to move down to take their place.

I wasn't stating opinion: blizz said the tank talents are moving up. At the moment all three trees are intended to be similar in tanking ability and right now they just aren't, although you're probably right about PvP talents too.

The main 25's I have done recently are OS and Military quarter. For OS I was dps the whole raid...tank spec'd and glyph'd. I finished #1 in Dmg Done...#3 in Dps for overall values. Single Target against Sartharion I was #1 Dmg Done and #3 Dps as well.

This was with 4 other DK's in the group...all of which were dps spec'd and glyph'd 2 of which had better gear than I do for dps. For Dps I was beat by my brother who plays a SP and a Mage who was in full 25m gear...the margin of dps difference was small. Both the mage and SP ran around 3.8-3.9k and I came in at about 3.4-3.5k.

Using HoW everytime it's up and skipping PS all together. 2x BS for death runes then 3x IT + HB + FS dumps...not neccessarily int hat order mind you...but I basically just generate as much RP as possible and spam FS...Rime procs I'd throw another IT and a PS.

Maybe I just run with crappy dps I dunno, on the 25m OS everyone in top 10 was doing 2.9k+ and the run went quick and smooth...hell I got a guild recruiter riding my tail because of my performance so I am assuming I did well.

I'm doing 4k dps single target (patchwerk) with 10 man buffs with mostly naxx 10 gear and a couple naxx 25, and a few heroic pieces. All our other dps is pretty close to or above this. Atm I am running a face-roll diseaseless blood spec.

[Gomexus]

@Kelias:

You left an open quote somewhere so I can't effectively quote argue back but I'll clear up a few big things real quick.

1) The leveling sentiment was said because if you re-read my post I stated "in all aspects of the game", speaking in terms of the different aspects...leveling is one of them...and it's one we excel in.

2) Patchwerk is not a benchmark...he's a target dummy at best for dps. It's a non-mobile fight which isn't quite the norm...it has no adds and absolutely no potential for anything other than "dps harder" type mentality. I used Sartharion in my argument because it requires movement and co-ordination...but is something that is generally open to all walks of players (i.e. gets pugged alot more than Patchwerk). Patchwerk is at best a "here's what you can do with X gear and using Y rotation" and even then I wouldn't trust anyone's numbers over my own. Regardless of spec and gear there are still some people that just do not get it...and may not ever get it. The amount of arguing on these boards alone over specs/gear/gems/rotations leads me to believe that the 99% of the populace that does not read or follow any outside information site, probably is not performing to optimum capacity.

3) My numbers aren't from trash they were from single target...I dropped a grand total of 1 DnD during Sartharion and our OT left no elementals close enough for my HB to hit, given a couple of stray hits here and there I highly doubt I did anywhere close to 2k dps...if I did...I wouldn't be claiming otherwise and the next time I get the chance I'll take some screens and post em up or IM them.

4) I won't make a list for why DK's are better tanks than every other tank class but I will link you to a list I made against Prot warrior's to give you an idea of why I said that:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.ph...7246#msg647246

I'm 2secs off on my UBA timer and I neglected to add in 4pc bonus for warrior's shield wall +3sec duration...but in the end the +2secs to UBA would outweigh +3secs to Shield Wall anyway.

Given a little time to do research and what not I'm sure I could throw out a list against Druid's, against Paladin's it's roughly similar to Warrior's in terms of incoming damage difference but Paladin's do ridiculous AE threat as well so scratch that...DK's still have better CD's than anyone, and knowing how/when to use them makes all the difference.

5) What I mean by buffs is that we get double buffed by +ap/str modifiers and +spell dmg modifiers (curse of elements/ebon plaguebringer/Razor Ice debuff). Our spell dmg is directly linked to AP...so with each gain in AP we gain spell dmg...then we gain more spell dmg by spell dmg modifiers...true Blood benefits the least from this, but Unholy and Frost especially, capitalize on it. My argument is that no other class benefits twofold for +spell and +ap...other than Enhancement Shaman...but their benefit from +spell does not benefit them as much as it does UH/Frost.

True, no one brings a DK for their buffs...but atm, no one really brings anyone for their buffs unless you are attempting an achievement. The only class that can claim a sure spot would be shaman for Bloodlust...other than that the content does not require pushing out max buffs. In terms of 25m it won't matter anyway since almost all of the buffs offered are available through multiple classes anyway.

----------------------------------

One question; I missed where they said tank talents were moving up and can't find it now, was it a blue post over the weekend? Can't log on too much during the weekends so I must have missed it.

Also, just to clear it up, I didn't mean to start another argument thread...I just personally feel like we'll see a dps nerf, overall talent shifts that will result in said dps nerf, and our trees will start to get a little more defined instead of this "be free...and confused" deal that Blizzard gave the playerbase...our tree's being so similar is something I think contributes the most to DK's getting tagged as dummies...You can look at any other classes tree's and tell exactly what that tree does...with ours all you see is 3 extremely similar trees..so people pick what they like...then fail...

[Amandi]

I LOVE frost as a tank, i just want the 51 pointer (though i really have nothing against it) to be useful for a tank. i can pull some run stuff with it, but really, it needs SOME kind of buff. I Don't want Howling blast to be the 51 pointer, it can switch with frost strike all it wants. I just want hungering cold to get something more useful, so it's actually capable of stopping a death or saving my own damn skin.

Hungering Cold:
Instant 40 Runic Power
Purges the earth around the Death Knight of all heat and encases the Death Knight in an frozen armor, reducing all damage taken by 90% for 3 seconds. Enemies within 10 yards are trapped in ice, preventing them from performing any action for 5 seconds and infecting them with Frost Fever. Enemies are considered frozen, and damaged caused to the target may break the effect.

OP?

[psicorp]

/snip
2) Patchwerk is not a benchmark...he's a target dummy at best for dps. It's a non-mobile fight which isn't quite the norm...it has no adds and absolutely no potential for anything other than "dps harder" type mentality. I used Sartharion in my argument because it requires movement and co-ordination...but is something that is generally open to all walks of players (i.e. gets pugged alot more than Patchwerk). Patchwerk is at best a "here's what you can do with X gear and using Y rotation" and even then I wouldn't trust anyone's numbers over my own. Regardless of spec and gear there are still some people that just do not get it...and may not ever get it. The amount of arguing on these boards alone over specs/gear/gems/rotations leads me to believe that the 99% of the populace that does not read or follow any outside information site, probably is not performing to optimum capacity.
/snip

okeydoky. you don't like patchwork, sarth works better for you?

http://www.wowmeteronline.com/search/boss/1318

sarth it is. in the top 10 DKs did, in one instance, make number 1 damage. however, in the top 10 DKs were unable to make the top 5 a whopping 6 out of 10 times. the same pattern holds true, DKs do better the lower the over all raid dps, once again lending credence to my theory that DKs may have scaling issues. while you may, as you seemed to imply, prefer to trust your own data, as is your right, it is perhaps a good thing, that i imagine the fine folks at blizz would probably disagree. as i said in my earlier post, i had originally done this search under the impression what i would find would back up what you were saying. but the more i look into it, the evidence is simply not there

second EDIT: no, actually, i must have sorted it correctly after all. these are the top 10 dps sets

third EDIT: hmm. looking back over your posts you may actually be referring to a tank dps nerf and TPS increase, but i am having trouble reconciling that with the quote "an across the board damage nerf"

[Bullshifter]

Gnomexus, I'm impressed =)

[Battousai]

okeydoky. you don't like patchwork, sarth works better for you?

http://www.wowmeteronline.com/search/boss/1318

sarth it is. in the top 10 DKs did, in one instance, make number 1 damage. however, in the top 10 DKs were unable to make the top 5 a whopping 6 out of 10 times. the same pattern holds true, DKs do better the lower the over all raid dps, once again lending credence to my theory that DKs may have scaling issues. while you may, as you seemed to imply, prefer to trust your own data, as is your right, it is perhaps a good thing, that i imagine the fine folks at blizz would probably disagree. as i said in my earlier post, i had originally done this search under the impression what i would find would back up what you were saying. but the more i look into it, the evidence is simply not there

second EDIT: no, actually, i must have sorted it correctly after all. these are the top 10 dps sets

You think DKs have scaling issues...try being a warrior with a non-static amount of rage to use, and a stamina modifier half of every other tanks.