What's this about Ret being lowest dps @ max geared/buffed/skilled raid?

[Ghul]

I was refering to the 3rd rogue in the Premonition raid, the one that did 5.4k dps? The 3rd rogue infection linked does seem to be HaT specced and did 6.1k.

Also, overall damage done means even less than a patchwerk speed kill.

i dont think that overall-damage is meaningless. if you have more people with hihg overalldamage u kill the trashgroups faster and even the bosses would be faster. on rankings and maxdps yeah patchwerk seems to be THE dps-referrence for many people. but its only one boss out of 15? 16? overall ingame atm and in my opinion it totally favors ranged classes and most likely mages. id say that in over 90% of the cases im currently at the top whilst playing at retributionpaladin.

dont get me wrong, im not trying to brag, i know your ranking depends on the other players in the raid and if theyre bad and youre not that bad as them, then its easier to get hihg. but in my opinion retpaladin isnt a bad damagedealer and if u want to narrow it down to patchwork only u can do so, but i wont ever do that because every single damage uve done counts!

well err that it for now

[hellothere]

in my naxx runs overall im alsways #1. On most fights im either 1 or 2 with only one of our mages ahead of me. I still have some gear slots that could be upgraded, but i usually own dps pretty good especially compared to the other hybrid classes. however i will admit that people in the guild arent playing to full potential and i know they could do much better if they did a little more reading up on their classes.

[Laihendi]

Paladins have always been, are, and will always be the lowest DPS in the game. What's so new about it?

I guess you forgot about the month before WotLK went live.

[Nakko]

You're right that ret paladins don't particularly shine in circumstantial tank-and-spank encounters. Some classes get huge benefits for stacking up on one target (mages) and being able to focus all of their cooldowns into condensed destruction.

This is not to say that ret paladins aren't still good-- the highest DPS in my guild is consistently a ret paladin. This isn't particularly because of the class so much as the player, but it shows that it's not impossible:

http://wowwebstats.com/t34vbjevybzbc

Ignore the lower DPS, we had to bring a lot of trash players last week because we're having trouble finding enough people interested in Naxx-- so booooored.

maybe highest dps overall, but for example patchwerk they only did 3.7k dps.

[Yqcooli]

I haven't found a post yet explaining this rumor I'm hearing about Ret turning out to be the worst hybrid dps and bottom end of meters on a raid boss fight, with a skilled and max geared/buffed raid. I also find it hard to believe because I've played with some of the best dps on my server and I consistantly get top 3 on virtually every boss fight. We're of equal gear and skill, and I just dont see how the last couple moderate upgrades left in the game for us will drop me to the low end and keep the others up top. And I'm not talkign about specific fights btw, like affliction locks perfectly geared and buffed with a doomgaurd on patchwork. I'm just talking about overall raid boss dps and where equally skilled ret pallies end up with a max geared raid/guild.

I certainly have found scattered posts about bm hunters, arcane mages, aff locks, and TG warriors being the highest current performers, which is generally true, but I'm neck and neck with them in all of my experiences, save for a good arcane mage in some fights. By the way, I don't necessarily feel that ret deserves to do more max potential dps on a boss than pure dps classes, I just wanna know where people are reading this... and yes I searched here, EJ, WoW forums, and Google, but found nothing definitive.

The rumor of ret being worse hybrid dps when max geared and raid buff is mostly true. We do less dps than DK, Warriors, enc shaman, boomkin and even shadow priest( these are all skilled players, plz don't mention the noobz in your guild).

Naxx being somewhat easy means top guilds or even average guilds have not started min/max as yet, but as content gets harder they will and only best hybrid will be in them( if you raid with your mother, sisters and cousins then you are ok doin 4.5kdps on patch).

People like to justify low dps with utillity but all the others have same or better ones and the only unique raid buff that a ret brings is sanc aura(with 3% haste and 3% damage), which a raid can live without.

The thing is our dps as measured in line with rogues dps and since theirs are crap, ret one turns out the a bit crap as well at high gear level. I think our dps will only be buff when rogues get the pve dps buff. Also our tree really needs more work( 3pts for 3% haste, now 3pts for 3% crit, a 41 talent with no effect and a talented cc that only last 6sec) with the changes to prot and mana regen, the tree might look a bit different at the end of ptr.

[iktankniet]

the dps varies alot on naxx fights since there not standard. im not a bad ret paladin imo. i still lack some gear.

http://wowwebstats.com/4ejqeoanymdrs

[Alensia]

Hi there, since you obviously haven't been around from 3.0 onward, you should know that ret dps/dmg in PVE is now very high on avg. Good rets own most so-so players of virtually every class. Blizz intended this... from their own posts they stated that ret would be on par or better than, say, a rogue, if they were simply a better player. Basically they have the tools and potential at their disposal to be competitive dps now and are doing so. Not that they will be one of the top 3 classes for dps at max geared end-game content, but they are at the least solid mid-pack dps in a good guild. And naturally, it all depends on the fight, but on average this is true.

Yeah I have been around since 1.4 or something, and currently I am in the role of DPS retadin (since 2.3) on our raids and the only player I lose in damage done is our OP Fury Wawyuh and in some cases a DK. But that's just because my guildies don't know how to press the buttons and my gear is best-in-slot with the exception of the Nobles Deck trinket. I'm pretty sure I'll be happy to reach the #10 position when linkin Recount to raid chat whens Ulduar and patch 3.1 (hidden) nerfs.

[thonga]

paladins are still a hybrid class.. just love the 3.0 changes(incl minor patch adjustments), and stop worry so much tbh

[PapaNasty]

Ret is a hybrid, thus is ment to be pulling 5% lower than pure dps classes at max skill /gear level (in theory)

Also ret provides large amounts of support, aswell as being a class where it's "easy" to dps well as, since the itemisation is soo easy to manage and the basic rotation is difficult to screw up due to limited abilities (although to max your dps with it is a little more tricky than other classes since its a priority system instead of just close your eyes and mash a rotation, so difficult to say how the "skillcap" effects ret)

[Abandon]

Frost mages, ect are definately below you.

[Exera]

Frost mages, ect are definately below you.

You must have some really shitty frost mages at your disposal tbh.

[Abandon]

You must have some really shitty frost mages at your disposal tbh.

Or you must do some pretty shitty DPS not to beat a frost mage in PVE.

[Kulltiras]

since frost mages are pretty subpar to fire and arcane, i would hope you can beat a frost mage.

[Varaben]

max geared ret palas dont tend to get higher than 5.5k dps at patchwerk whereas other classes can get up to 7k, sad indeed.

just go have a look at wws or wmo

I understand using Patchwerk as a benchmark, but personally I still do the most dmg overall, and usually for all bosses in total. I know warlocks do a lot more dmg because they can get a doomguard or whatever its called. Big deal. Patchwerk is basically a gimmick fight just like any other fight. Its very short so it caters to certain types of classes or RNG or whatever it may be. The bottom line is, you are saying ret pals do less on one specific fight when everyone involved has perfect gear on ONE specific fight. Who cares. I fucking rock noth. I keep up with everyone else on every fight. If you have warlocks or rogues doing stupid gimmicky things to bring up their patchwerk dps thats fine and it save syou what 30 seconds of raid time. Good for them.

[Miedo]

You're right that ret paladins don't particularly shine in circumstantial tank-and-spank encounters. Some classes get huge benefits for stacking up on one target (mages) and being able to focus all of their cooldowns into condensed destruction.

This is not to say that ret paladins aren't still good-- the highest DPS in my guild is consistently a ret paladin. This isn't particularly because of the class so much as the player, but it shows that it's not impossible:

http://wowwebstats.com/t34vbjevybzbc

Ignore the lower DPS, we had to bring a lot of trash players last week because we're having trouble finding enough people interested in Naxx-- so booooored.

check out patchwerk dps/damage. He's not top on that, in fact he's 11th. Isn't that what Blizz is using to judge what's doing good etc? On a lot of boss fights a paladin can 'fake' their numbers because of consecrate and adds. On KT, he's not tops, as well as Sapp. But that's not necessarily bad, you just have to have someone in that position on the DPS meter.

The better question for people is, did he BoP the healer who pulled aggro on trash, did he salve himself (or the enhancement shaman) who got high on threat, did he LoH the tank in time to save a wipe?

I don't think Ret is bad dps, it's pretty freaking nice to actually be able to do damage. But the better the other people in you guild are, and the better geared they are, then the relative dps goes down. Our enhancement shaman, our DK, and our SP are generally the top 3 on 90% of the fights. The next 10 or so spots could go to any of our other dpsers.

[Exera]

Or you must do some pretty shitty DPS not to beat a frost mage in PVE.

We have frost mages putting out 5.5k+ DPS in raids.

[belfpala]

I don't think Ret is bad dps, it's pretty freaking nice to actually be able to do damage. But the better the other people in you guild are, and the better geared they are, then the relative dps goes down. Our enhancement shaman, our DK, and our SP are generally the top 3 on 90% of the fights. The next 10 or so spots could go to any of our other dpsers.

This. When you're with a group of well-geared and skilled players, priorities for analysis change a bit. The questions become 1) is everyone doing their share (whatever that is, depending on the class)? and 2) is there anything anyone can do to improve. Looking at relative DPS isn't as useful when everyone is performing at the top of their game. You might inspect the data to see if, for example, the ret paladin is keeping nearly 100% uptime on consecration or the elemental shaman is getting 100% crit rate on lava burst. That's what Recount is good for in those situations (besides epeen enlargement, of course).

I would LIKE to do more damage as ret. I'm not bad, but I get shown up by good DKs and Fury warriors in worse gear. On the other hand, my guild isn't going to stop bringing me simply because I can't keep up with other plate wearers on damage. I've saved the raid multiple times with timely off heals or a Lay or whatever. And, ultimately, that's more important.

I'm also NOT unhappy with the damage I do as ret. I almost guarantee I'll top the meters on any pug I join, for example. I do fine.

[Lumineus]

The problem with using Patchwerk as a benchmark for Paladins is that their mana regeneration depends largely on splash healing, of which there is little to go around, and this problem increases as the Paladin's gear improves, where the self-damage from Judgements becomes increasingly a threat to their life. Paladins face the same problem on Loatheb and Gluth, and Sarth+drakes as well to a lesser extent. If you look at vanilla Sarth and Thaddius, Noth, Gothik, you'll see that there's no problem with Paladin DPS, the problem is with resource generation and associated risks.

Another problem, as previously mentioned, is that as RDPS increases Patchwerk becomes an absurdly short encounter, and Paladins are one of the classes that benefit least from Heroism, as well as having only one cooldown to blow. Once it gets to the point where you can only get one Avenging Wrath in, you're going to be sitting at or near the bottom of the chart.

[Kulltiras]

I understand using Patchwerk as a benchmark, but personally I still do the most dmg overall, and usually for all bosses in total. I know warlocks do a lot more dmg because they can get a doomguard or whatever its called. Big deal. Patchwerk is basically a gimmick fight just like any other fight. Its very short so it caters to certain types of classes or RNG or whatever it may be. The bottom line is, you are saying ret pals do less on one specific fight when everyone involved has perfect gear on ONE specific fight. Who cares. I fucking rock noth. I keep up with everyone else on every fight. If you have warlocks or rogues doing stupid gimmicky things to bring up their patchwerk dps thats fine and it save syou what 30 seconds of raid time. Good for them.

You are correct, while patchwerk is a perfect tank and spank, it is a rare breed of fight. Most other fights are not stand still and DPS like Patch is. However, it is because of this, that it IS the BEST measure of pure DPS. Because it measures 3 things, combining for one thing; mechanics. 1st thing, gear. 2nd thing, spec, 3rd, knowledge of class. Once someone gets the best gear, the smartest spec, and knows the best rotations, they will rock this boss, and it just becomes a measure of mechanics. Patch does not measure your ability to pay attention to your environment, or react fast, or help your raid, it measures mechanics. A fight like this where it PERFECTLY measure mechanics, allows us to analyze what Blizz has done with each class and spec, so that we can give feedback, what classes/specs need tuning/balancing.

Despite the fact that it does not represent every fight, or even a majority of them, it is the best way to measure class balance in PvE.

[Varaben]

I know its the best fight we have, but like i said, the only time you could truly test dps would be on a 10 minute long patchwerk or something. 2 minutes is REALLY not anywhere near enough time to see real dps. Mages are rocking patchwerk because they have unlimited mana for 2 minutes. It misrepresents "dps." Their dps will fall a lot lower over a 10 minute fight. PAladins dont really have a way to dump all their mana and get full dps out of it like mages. So if a mage does better than a paladin it doesnt mean anything. Its just one example, but warlocks, like i said, can do the same thing. They can use gimicks or just the fact that its shorter to their advantage where paladins cannot.