Death Knight Frost Tank - Subversion v.s. Death Rune Mastery

[Izzirez]

So, as my title says, im curious about which talent would be better for tanking. Subversion would let my oblit crit more often, increasing threat. But Death Rune Mastery would allow my Frost and Unholy runes to turn into Death runes after my Oblits, thus allowing me to get in more oblits, which in my head, would be more TPS then the crits.

What does everyone else think about this?

[crikk23]

who uses Oblits when u cna us HB aoe and goes threw armor...and range 8)

[drizzt]

if u are using obliterate how would death rune mastery give you more obliterates? whether those runes are death or Unholy/frost they still equal obliterate what they would allow is more pestilence, bloodboil, or bloodstrikes but not more obliterates

[Izzirez]

if u are using obliterate how would death rune mastery give you more obliterates? whether those runes are death or Unholy/frost they still equal obliterate what they would allow is more pestilence, bloodboil, or bloodstrikes but not more obliterates

Stupid me, didnt think lol. Anyways, that would still allow me to be more situationally prepared, I guess. So, i guess its tps vs flexibility.

[Alkandur]

Im the MT Dk for my guild and i either tank as 12/51/7 or 10/11/50 mostly depending on my mood lol, since the content is so easy.

If you use a Frost and Unholy rune for an obliterate... and they come back as death runes... for you to use them for Obliterate again... you accomplished nothing. The death runes would come back in 10 seconds, just like they would if you didnt have Death Rune Mastery. (they dont instantly come back) Basically turning runes into death runes that you would already use for the ability is pointless.

But on a equally important note, you should never have that many points into blood as a frost tank, the most i would ever put in there depending on situation, would be 12... at most.

[Izzirez]

Im the MT Dk for my guild and i either tank as 12/51/7 or 10/11/50 mostly depending on my mood lol, since the content is so easy.

If you use a Frost and Unholy rune for an obliterate... and they come back as death runes... for you to use them for Obliterate again... you accomplished nothing. The death runes would come back in 10 seconds, just like they would if you didnt have Death Rune Mastery. (they dont instantly come back) Basically turning runes into death runes that you would already use for the ability is pointless.

But on a equally important note, you should never have that many points into blood as a frost tank, the most i would ever put in there depending on situation, would be 12... at most.

Yeah, just not sure where to put my last 3 points. Most builds had subversion, but theres a few alternatives I could grab from Unholy, such as morbidity. I dont normally use dnd for aoe groups, but thats cause HB usually covers it. Though, lower cd on dnd would be very useful, and I might start weaving dnd into my rotations.

[axi0m]

I personally normally go for Bladed Armor and pickup morbidity, I'm a main offtank for our 25s and main tank for our main tank group. I don't have issues with threat at all so normally go for the increased AP so I can output a bit more damage, and I like having quicker DnD's for fights like Gothik where I can drop it and forget about it and save HB to pick up extras that come through if our DPS is a bit too slow. I'm still playing around with builds though, I'm normally a different variant every couple raids, and they've all worked well, as long as you have the core 5/5/5 and the defensive talents in frost the others (at least from my experience) are a matter of personal preference.

[Mapex]

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0EZGgxzhed0hoVosx0x

This is the template for any solid Frost tank spec, IMO. There are 6 points to play around with as you please (to a degree), but these are the core talents for successful Frost tanking.

Blade Barrier/Bladed Armor gives you crazy survivability + TPS.
Anticipation is all you need from Unholy, but again you have points with which to play around.
Frost:

-Pick up the physical damage survivability talents - Toughness, Lichborne, Unbreakable Armor, Frigid Dreadplate

-Pick up all the damage talents EXCEPT:
--Icy Talons line; this talent is for DPS DKs who only need to focus on damage talents whereas tanks have to focus on both damage (for TPS) and survivability talents
--Merciless Combat; by the time a mob is this low on HP, you should have more than enough aggro, so more damage won't be too helpful

-Icy Reach 1/2 is more for tree progression purposes, but I find, especially doing adds on 3 drakes, that the extra range from 2/2 makes it easier to pick stuff up off of people

-Runic Power Mastery is fail - you will be Rune Striking, Anti-Magic Shelling, and Frost Striking so much that you'll never get to 100 RP very often, let alone 130 RP.

-Frost Aura is good for PvP, but useless for PvE; an Improved Gift of the Wild gives you 74 resistance to all schools, so you are spending 2 talent points for 6 to all resists in the end



Now, you have 5 (6 if you don't max Icy Reach) points to spend as you please. Key talents to put them into are:
-Two-handed Weapon Specialization (2 points)
-Acclimation (3 points) - the only reason I haven't specced for it in a few weeks is because of the damned Hundred Club achievement for Sapphiron
-Virulence (3 points)
-Epidemic (2 points)
-Morbidity (3 points) - I used to hate Death and Decay as a Frost tank, but I sort of like having an oh shi- button for threat at times. It also helps doing adds on 3 drakes, especially when the whelps pop out of the portal

[neonanaski]

There isn't much more to say here. Using the template above (which is fine) I'd put the last 5 in 2h spec, epidemic, and the floater point wherever.

I think alot of people underestimate Merciless Combat, and I would incorporate that into my build by giving up Chill of the Grave (you have alot of RP coming in as it is)

[Izzirez]

Heres the build im thinking of specing when I hit 80 (In about..oh...1 hour..)

Spec: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0EMZGgxzheb0hoVosxct
What do you guys think? My diseases usually never get anywhere close to falling off, so losing 3 secs on them wont be an issue I dont think.

[Avermra]

Heres the build im thinking of specing when I hit 80 (In about..oh...1 hour..)

Spec: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0EMZGgxzheb0hoVosxct
What do you guys think? My diseases usually never get anywhere close to falling off, so losing 3 secs on them wont be an issue I dont think.

You don't really use DnD as Frost tank since you'll be spending Frost and Unholy Runes on HB, so those are not necessary

[Mapex]

You don't really use DnD as Frost tank since you'll be spending Frost and Unholy Runes on HB, so those are not necessary

It helps, contrary to popular belief. I used to hate DnD as a Frost tank until recently, especially with encounters where mobs all come out at once towards healers and two taunts + Deathchilled Howling Blast with no diseases is not enough to hold the aggro. Disease application + Pestilence (which is no longer going to do damage in 3.1, mind you) eats too many GCDs during time sensitive situations.

[Izzirez]

It helps, contrary to popular belief. I used to hate DnD as a Frost tank until recently, especially with encounters where mobs all come out at once towards healers and two taunts + Deathchilled Howling Blast with no diseases is not enough to hold the aggro. Disease application + Pestilence (which is no longer going to do damage in 3.1, mind you) eats too many GCDs during time sensitive situations.

Im prolly not going to pick up Deathchill, but thats still iffy. Because of the pestilence change, Ive started using bloodboil for my 2nd blood rune, to help cover the lil bit of aggro, before I HB.

[Mapex]

Im prolly not going to pick up Deathchill, but thats still iffy. Because of the pestilence change, Ive started using bloodboil for my 2nd blood rune, to help cover the lil bit of aggro, before I HB.

IMO all that's going to do for you is make you have to wait an extra GCD to HB due to a minimal damage attack from Blood Boil unless your FU runes are on cooldown.

Not having that extra Death Rune for the next part of the rotation will hurt, especially if you have the whole raid AOEing the mobs you are trying to keep on you.

[superflystud]

Sometimes, your talents selection depends heavily on what you are tanking and your current gear level.

For instance, for 5 or 10-mans, I would suggest picking up Icy Talents -> Imp Icy Talons.  You are far from guaranteed to have the 20% haste buff in the smaller dungeons, and it is a significant boost to melee dps.

If you aren't hit capped, I would definitely pick up Virulence.  Many don't, but I have found that missing on that first HB in an AoE pull can be disastrous.

I did some basic math on it, and for a Frost Tank I believe that Bladed Armor is generally more TPS than either Two-Hand Spec or Subversion because it adds to ALL of your abilities.  Also, it is less RNG than Subversion.  Constant threat >> uncontrollable burst threat imo.

Anyway, my $0.02

Good luck and happy tanking!

EDIT: As a Frost Tank, I would never take Death Rune Mastery. But that has already been pointed out =D

[Gomexus]

DnD>IT>Pest>Blood Tap>HB=Mad AE threat

Using DnD on every pull is not a bad idea at all...especially if Blood Tap is available...if it's not available it's still not a bad idea to throw DnD down and IT>PS>Pest then HB asap.

Oblit is bad for tanking because it won't start to outdamage HB against single targets until you are glyh'd for it, and are also using the Sigil for it...until then just use HB. I primarily use Obliterate only when I get a Rime proc which free's up a F/U to use on Obliterate.