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  1. #21

    Re: improved silence

    Quote Originally Posted by Blooddeity
    Then you are giving yourself very little credit, if you can honestly say that you can't survive for 30 seconds if trinket is used on fear then you need to get more hp or resi. Based on 1v1 ofc.
    Based on 1v1, all melee classes with similar gear will kill me in under 30 seconds, yes. Where rogues probably do it in less then 10 seconds. Usually (even with 900 resi, 22k hp).
    Quote Originally Posted by Blooddeity
    8 second channeling on 2 minute cooldown only healing 60% of max hp. If that was your only healing ability then yes you could have more CC i agree, oh and guess what mages do
    This is actually very good against many melee. If you can get them frosted to the ground (or sheep) and made them use trinkets (usually a bit in the fight), then there is no way to stop the mage from actually using the evocation. Shadowpriests that get a fear, and choose to switch out heal, and then back in to shadow. Has lost a lot of mana (just by switching) and now have zero abilities left to control the melee train incoming after the fear is ended.

  2. #22

    Re: improved silence

    I actually thought that talenting SW to have a 3 second stun would work quite nicely. It would get people actually using this spell agaqin, and it might actually be nice to have a stun we can control that works.
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  3. #23
    Scarab Lord AetherMcLoud's Avatar
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    Re: improved silence

    Quote Originally Posted by Abandon
    I actually thought that talenting SW to have a 3 second stun would work quite nicely. It would get people actually using this spell agaqin, and it might actually be nice to have a stun we can control that works.
    Well a 3 second stun with 12 second CD would be quite overpowered I think. But SW really isn't used anymore these days, not in pve (not enough scaling damage) and not in pvp (the backlash is too much).
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  4. #24

    Re: improved silence

    Quote Originally Posted by Abandon
    I actually thought that talenting SW to have a 3 second stun would work quite nicely. It would get people actually using this spell agaqin, and it might actually be nice to have a stun we can control that works.
    That would be rather cool. Since the spell also have a already built in payback with dealing damage to yourself by using it. Would be quite bad to spam it in PVP, and it already has a CD, the stun could be 2-3 sec long. Ye, sounds quite fair.

  5. #25

    Re: improved silence

    Indeed. I like the idea. I toyed with the thought of adding an interrupt to SW a while ago, but I couldn't quite justify the need for it. A stun on the other hand...

  6. #26

    Re: improved silence


    It would have to be a bit deep in the shadow tree though, since SW can be cast by any priest, it would be OP. I could see a disc priest use this a lot and not suffer that much from the damage back to him.

  7. #27

    Re: improved silence

    "That would be rather cool. Since the spell also have a already built in payback with dealing damage to yourself by using it. Would be quite bad to spam it in PVP, and it already has a CD, the stun could be 2-3 sec long. Ye, sounds quite fair."
    Not realy. It would actually make shadowpriest a very good PVP class (not joking here). I'd rather see it have a knockback (for either side).

    From what I encountered in arena so far: discpline priests were the most common from the casters, and the hardest. After them came mages who are very annoying. Lucky me im a pallie with freedom and bubble (freedom for my partner, mind you). I encountered maybe a couple of warlocks, mind you they couldn't do much after getting out of form (a lock friend of mine agrees on this). Shadowpriest you asked? What is that?

    Shadowpriest doesn't have as much survivabilty compared to disc and doesnt do that much more damage. In the past they were more fortified than mages and could rape the melee(not including rogues), but i'm not too sure it still applies. Currently shadowpriests and warlocks need some pvp support, and mages are fine as is in my point of view.

  8. #28

    Re: improved silence

    Well, 12 seconds would not be long enough for the DR to reset, to it would be a 3 second stun, then if you cast it again after 12 seconds it would be a 1.5 second stun. And of course this is not counting that your arena partner would also suffer the DR of your SW stun.
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  9. #29

    Re: improved silence

    Dude, grow some argumentation balls... your so-called arguments are all void.
    Hostile person is hostile.

    Just quit the pettifoggery. Saying Holy Paladins are primarly a melee class is akin to saying Shadowpriests are primarly a healing class, Moonkins are primarly a melee class (OMG they regain mana from melee!), Resto Shamans are primarly a melee class (OMG they have weapon enchants and strength/agi totems!). Every one of those statements are simply wrong.

    Holy Paladins are casters just like Priests, Elemental and Resto Shamans, Mages, Warlocks and Non-Feral Druids.

    According to your warped logic, Priests until Burning Crusade would have been a "melee-caster hybrid" and "primarily a melee class" because they got +Attack Power from their selfbuff? GTFO.
    Holy paladins are primarily a melee class. They are stonger in healing but when you try to get the bad guys down you are still doing it at close range and not by casting spells and kiting mobs. You can't deny this. Call it pettifoggery, but it is also true.

    Priest should be primarily be a healing class, or should I say priest should primarily be a non-hostility class. Yes they have a shadow aspect for those priest who concentrate in the occult and because every class needs a dps spec. But mainly priests are involved in religion and many times it's not because they want to hurt people.

    Shaman is also a caster melee hybrid, though they can specialize in either casting or doing more melee damage. Allthough shaman actually have the ability to *gasps* cast healing and offensive spells. This where a paladin can only cast heals, and offensive abilities are instant.

    Moonkins are casters, they take a special form to cast spells in which their melee effects are not very good. Bad game design does not change definitions.

    Again the priest getting +attackpower is bad game design, but it was fixed, dredging old game errors does not make your right.

    Conditional, Conschmischional. It's a controlled stun, punctum. That has nothing to do with it being conditional. Every single ability in this game is conditional. Because every single ability has some condition tied to it to be useful / usable. I.E. being in range, being slowed, being frozen, being shielded, not being shielded, having hots, having dots, etc. PP.
    Mages cannot deepfreeze a person every single cooldown. A person needs to be frozen before they can be deepfrozen and thus stunned (or mages need fingers of frost). The stun requires a condition. Now that is conditional.

    Thank you very much for not knowing anything about my class/spec. I have close to 1000 resilience (968 IIRC) and a bit more than 21k hp. If that is not enough, what is?
    It should be enough. And if it´s not enough because DPS is too high right now, doesn´t mean you should just get more CC abilities. And that is the whole point I am getting at.

    DPS and especially melee does a lot of damage, then more CC isn´t just the answer. Bad game design has left melee very strong, so they need to tone down melee a bit, but should they turn every clothie in a CC monster that would just ruin the game even more.

    Get the fuck out of this thread you troll.
    Hostile person is hostile.

  10. #30
    Scarab Lord AetherMcLoud's Avatar
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    Re: improved silence

    Quote Originally Posted by Blooddeity
    Hostile person is hostile.
    Software Developer is Developing Software and therefore stressed out :P

    I will not reply on the class-definition part of your post because you seem to be stubborn there, but...

    Mages cannot deepfreeze a person every single cooldown. A person needs to be frozen before they can be deepfrozen and thus stunned (or mages need fingers of frost). The stun requires a condition. Now that is conditional.
    So Powerword:Shield is conditional because it requires:
    - The cooldown is up (4 seconds CD)
    - The target doesn't have Weakened Soul Debuff
    - The target is in your party/raid

    You whole crusade about the conditional thing is pretty, but it doesn't change the fact that it is a CONTROLLED stun. If you somehow try to wiggle your way out by saying it is not controlled because it is conditional, then you also have to follow through and say powerword:shield is not controlled. Which is nothing short of rediculous.

    It should be enough. And if it´s not enough because DPS is too high right now, doesn´t mean you should just get more CC abilities. And that is the whole point I am getting at.

    DPS and especially melee does a lot of damage, then more CC isn´t just the answer. Bad game design has left melee very strong, so they need to tone down melee a bit, but should they turn every clothie in a CC monster that would just ruin the game even more.
    Yeah it should be enough but it isn't. And I have seen burst decreasing with resilience increasing. Also rogues/mages got some nerfs with 3.0.9. The problem is their shitload of CC. A rogue still kills me inside stunlock/interrupts/sap/blind. Now it will probably take him 20 seconds instead of 15, but still I cannot do a thing besides dispersion, fear (gg trinket) and shielding myself (lulz).

    It's the combination of CC + burst that kills us, we could somehow handle the burst if we were able to cast our spells, at least a few of them.

    Hostile person is hostile.
    No offense, but I have a rather fucked up day today, and you came of rather... troll-ish.
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  11. #31

    Re: improved silence

    Quote Originally Posted by AetherMcLoud
    Software Developer is Developing Software and therefore stressed out :P

    I will not reply on the class-definition part of your post because you seem to be stubborn there, but...

    So Powerword:Shield is conditional because it requires:
    - The cooldown is up (4 seconds CD)
    - The target doesn't have Weakened Soul Debuff
    - The target is in your party/raid

    You whole crusade about the conditional thing is pretty, but it doesn't change the fact that it is a CONTROLLED stun. If you somehow try to wiggle your way out by saying it is not controlled because it is conditional, then you also have to follow through and say powerword:shield is not controlled. Which is nothing short of rediculous.

    Yeah it should be enough but it isn't. And I have seen burst decreasing with resilience increasing. Also rogues/mages got some nerfs with 3.0.9. The problem is their shitload of CC. A rogue still kills me inside stunlock/interrupts/sap/blind. Now it will probably take him 20 seconds instead of 15, but still I cannot do a thing besides dispersion, fear (gg trinket) and shielding myself (lulz).

    It's the combination of CC + burst that kills us, we could somehow handle the burst if we were able to cast our spells, at least a few of them.

    No offense, but I have a rather fucked up day today, and you came of rather... troll-ish.
    Power Word: Shield is not conditional because you do not have to fulfill any conditions in order to cast it. It would be a more correct comparison if you were only able to case PW:S on players that have Renew currently on them.

    I am afraid you are wrong trying to say that Deep Freeze is a controlled stun. It is a stun that is unable to ever be cast until the conditions of it are fulfilled. If you do not fulfill these conditions beforehand, then you will never be able to cast your 51 point talent. If it was a controlled stun, then people would not need to use another cooldown in order to cast it.

    Saying over and over again that it is controlled does not change the fact that it is not something you can reliably control, and that you are wrong by claiming that it is. The reason people use the Water Elemental Freeze before casting it is because it gives the biggest chance of being able to actually use their skill.

    Hopefully Blizzard will reveal more changes over the next few weeks, I seriously hope that they are not finished with Shadow PVP. I do agree with you that Shadow needs more control than an easily broken 30 second cooldown, but unfortunately we will have to wait and see.

    Of course I have my own ideas on how you could fix Shadow PVP, but a 3 second stun on SW attached to a deep shadow talent and an ability to reset shadow cooldowns (like Cold Snap) would be a really nice start.
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  12. #32
    Scarab Lord AetherMcLoud's Avatar
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    Re: improved silence

    Quote Originally Posted by Abandon
    Power Word: Shield is not conditional because you do not have to fulfill any conditions in order to cast it. It would be a more correct comparison if you were only able to case PW:S on players that have Renew currently on them.
    A condition is a condition. You are contradicting yourself here making your argument invalid. You can only cast Deepfreeze if the target has been frozen (or whatever). You can only cast Powerword: Shield if the target doesn't have weakened soul. Both have conditions attached to their casting, so both of them are conditional. Logic wins again.

    I am afraid you are wrong trying to say that Deep Freeze is a controlled stun. It is a stun that is unable to ever be cast until the conditions of it are fulfilled. If you do not fulfill these conditions beforehand, then you will never be able to cast your 51 point talent. If it was a controlled stun, then people would not need to use another cooldown in order to cast it.
    Do you grok the concept of control? Meaning: You press button, something happens. That is control over your actions. You watching your toon while a random stun procs, that is not controlled.

    Blessing of Freedom? Controlled
    Fear? Controlled
    Deepfreeze? Controlled
    Crippling Poison? NOT controlled
    Shiv? Controlled
    Mind-numbing poison? NOT controlled
    Mortal Strike? Controlled
    Pre-Wrath Mace Stun: NOT controlled

    See a pattern there? Random proc chance = not controlled, push button, something happens = controlled.

    Saying over and over again that it is controlled does not change the fact that it is not something you can reliably control, and that you are wrong by claiming that it is. The reason people use the Water Elemental Freeze before casting it is because it gives the biggest chance of being able to actually use their skill.
    Saying over and over again that it is not controlled does not change the fact that it IS controlled. You cannot win against Captain Causality and his trusty sidekick, Logic Lad.

    Hopefully Blizzard will reveal more changes over the next few weeks, I seriously hope that they are not finished with Shadow PVP. I do agree with you that Shadow needs more control than an easily broken 30 second cooldown, but unfortunately we will have to wait and see.

    Of course I have my own ideas on how you could fix Shadow PVP, but a 3 second stun on SW attached to a deep shadow talent and an ability to reset shadow cooldowns (like Cold Snap) would be a really nice start.
    I can agree with that last quote wholeheartedly though.
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  13. #33

    Re: improved silence

    Quote Originally Posted by AetherMcLoud
    A condition is a condition. You are contradicting yourself here making your argument invalid. You can only cast Deepfreeze if the target has been frozen (or whatever). You can only cast Powerword: Shield if the target doesn't have weakened soul. Both have conditions attached to their casting, so both of them are conditional. Logic wins again.

    Do you grok the concept of control? Meaning: You press button, something happens. That is control over your actions. You watching your toon while a random stun procs, that is not controlled.

    Blessing of Freedom? Controlled
    Fear? Controlled
    Deepfreeze? Controlled
    Crippling Poison? NOT controlled
    Shiv? Controlled
    Mind-numbing poison? NOT controlled
    Mortal Strike? Controlled
    Pre-Wrath Mace Stun: NOT controlled
    And if you press Deep Freeze, nothing happens. You press can the button and nothing happens simply because you have not fulfilled a condition before casting it, I would not consider that a completely controlled stun. Or you can call it a controlled stun that you can only cast when you give the target a specific debuff before casting it, if you like.

    I would call Kidney Shot a controlled stun.

    See a pattern there? Random proc chance = not controlled, push button, something happens = controlled.
    By that definition, Deep Freeze is neither a controlled stun nor an uncontrolled stun. Perhaps you should widen your definitions? Also, comparing an offensive stun to a beneficial buff seems like a very bad way to make your comparison.

    Saying over and over again that it is not controlled does not change the fact that it IS controlled. You cannot win against Captain Causality and his trusty sidekick, Logic Lad.

    I can agree with that last quote wholeheartedly though.
    Thanks, I always considered my Frostweave/Netherweave Nets an important part of my Shadow Priest PVP arsenal.
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  14. #34

    Re: improved silence

    Quote Originally Posted by Annesh
    Abandon, what you need to do is go back in time and convince your mother to play Mozart for you when you were a baby, because leading experts say, "Mozart makes babies smarter."

    And judging from what I've seen, you need it desperately.

    In your defense, arguing with AetherMcLoud can make even the most rational of people into foam-spitting lunatics. But you're still wrong and bad.
    I'm sorry, clearly with your vastly superior intellect you will be able to perfectly define what an ability you have full control over is. Feel free to reply with a response that will completely settle the issue without any argument or disagreement from anyone.

    You see, I assumed that an ability you can fully control would be something like Flash Heal. Flash heal does not require your target to do anything, or have any buffs or debuffs on them to work. You cast it, and it lands. Since I am comparing Deep Freeze, I will choose another stun, Hammer of Justice. You can cast Hammer of Justice on a target without them already being snared/rooted already, unlike Deep Freeze. Hammer of Justice is a fully controlled stun, while Deep Freeze is not.

    I would say that an ability that requires other factors to already be in effect in order to even cast it would not be an ability that is under your complete and total control. I am in no way comparing random proc talents such as Blackout to Deep Freeze.

    Power Word: Shield was an interesting example, a spell with a cooldown and a longer "cooldown" on the target as well. It is not entirely under your control either, as you cannot cast it on the target whenever you want.

    Now, if you are done with the pathetic superiority bit, then please post something constructive or shut up. And AetherMcLoud is far more interesting to discuss something with than you, as he actually considers his responses and participates in discussion, as opposed to your little attempts at wit.
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  15. #35
    Epic! gaymer77's Avatar
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    Re: improved silence

    Quote Originally Posted by Abandon
    I would call Kidney Shot a controlled stun.
    But by your own definition it can't be a controlled stun because in order for a rogue to use it they have to have combo points on their target. If they have none on their target, they can press the button all day long & nothing happens. FAILED EXAMPLE ON YOUR PART

    Also, comparing an offensive stun to a beneficial buff seems like a very bad way to make your comparison.
    Wait. You're telling me that a mage can't deep freeze someone, use evocate & with their glyph heal themself without it being benefical to them? FAILED LOGIC ON YOUR PART

    Thanks, I always considered my Frostweave/Netherweave Nets an important part of my Shadow Priest PVP arsenal.
    You can use nets in arena? WOW didn't know that.

    On a side note, when have you NOT seen a mage with buff that allows them to treat a target as if they were frozen (pardon me if I forget the name of it) or their target frozen while in pvp combat? Personally I ALWAYS see one of those two conditions in place with frost mages. Hell even if they have frost armor up they can snare someone so gg melee too. Therefore their ability to use deep freeze is controlled by them at nearly every second they are in pvp combat.

    On another side note, when have you NOT seen a lock in pvp have either their felhound out or felguard out? How many locks actually pvp with an imp or suc or VW these days? None that I see because their felguard can stun (omg a stun) at any given moment 100% within their control & a felguard can interrupt a caster and eat magic debuffs off the lock at any given moment 100% within their control. So we have a demo lock that can stun & interrupt spell casting & eat magic debuffs/beneficial buffs on someone else and a destro lock that can interrupt spell casting disorient/stun & eat magic debuffs/beneficial buffs on someone else & we have aff locks who can interrupt spell casting eat magic debuffs/beneficial buffs on someone else. ALL WITHIN THEIR CONTROL WITH SHORT CD'S.

    BTW spriest's only proc stun (blackout) is completely removed come 3.1 so even that is screwing over our survivability when it comes to pvp if we can survive the stunlock train. Playing as an UD spriest since pre-BC I loved the fact that I had more survivability vs any rogue because of my touch of weakness being able to proc blackout. I was very sad when they homoginized priests by giving us all the same shit because that & WoF were the reasons I made an UD to begin with.

  16. #36
    Epic! gaymer77's Avatar
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    Re: improved silence

    Quote Originally Posted by gaymer77
    But by your own definition it can't be a controlled stun because in order for a rogue to use it they have to have combo points on their target. If they have none on their target, they can press the button all day long & nothing happens. FAILED EXAMPLE ON YOUR PART
    Wait, let me correct one part of this.....

    If they have none on their target, they can press the button all day long & nothing happens unless they spec into gaining a combo point when they dodge but how many casters melee rogues?

  17. #37

    Re: improved silence

    Quote Originally Posted by gaymer77
    But by your own definition it can't be a controlled stun because in order for a rogue to use it they have to have combo points on their target. If they have none on their target, they can press the button all day long & nothing happens. FAILED EXAMPLE ON YOUR PART
    And I noticed how you carefully avoided the comparison to Hammer of Justice. And if you want to play this childish game, OMG DEEP FREEZE COSTS MANA YOU CANT CAST IT IF YOU HAVE NO MANA UNCONTROLLED STUN.

    Deep Freeze can be cast as a random proc (Fingers of Frost) or when another ability is cast first. The combo point is, along with the energy cost, the cost of "casting" Kidney Shot.

    Wait. You're telling me that a mage can't deep freeze someone, use evocate & with their glyph heal themself without it being benefical to them? FAILED LOGIC ON YOUR PART
    In that case every ability in the game is a "beneficial buff". HEY I STABBED THIS GUY AND HE DIED AND NOW I CAN BANDAGE WITHOUT INTERRUPTION, THAT MAKES MY STAB A HEAL!
    Stop reaching, comparing a stun castable on enemy players if they are frozen to a buff that absorbs damage on a friendly player is stupid, and you trying to point out situations where it will help you does not change that. Every ability in the game is a buff by your logic.

    You can use nets in arena? WOW didn't know that.
    How sad that you are so obsessed with your little rooms in the arena that you have forgotten that there are battlegrounds where you can also PVP.
    On a side note, when have you NOT seen a mage with buff that allows them to treat a target as if they were frozen (pardon me if I forget the name of it) or their target frozen while in pvp combat? Personally I ALWAYS see one of those two conditions in place with frost mages. Hell even if they have frost armor up they can snare someone so gg melee too. Therefore their ability to use deep freeze is controlled by them at nearly every second they are in pvp combat.

    On another side note, when have you NOT seen a lock in pvp have either their felhound out or felguard out? How many locks actually pvp with an imp or suc or VW these days? None that I see because their felguard can stun (omg a stun) at any given moment 100% within their control & a felguard can interrupt a caster and eat magic debuffs off the lock at any given moment 100% within their control. So we have a demo lock that can stun & interrupt spell casting & eat magic debuffs/beneficial buffs on someone else and a destro lock that can interrupt spell casting disorient/stun & eat magic debuffs/beneficial buffs on someone else & we have aff locks who can interrupt spell casting eat magic debuffs/beneficial buffs on someone else. ALL WITHIN THEIR CONTROL WITH SHORT CD'S.

    BTW spriest's only proc stun (blackout) is completely removed come 3.1 so even that is screwing over our survivability when it comes to pvp if we can survive the stunlock train. Playing as an UD spriest since pre-BC I loved the fact that I had more survivability vs any rogue because of my touch of weakness being able to proc blackout. I was very sad when they homoginized priests by giving us all the same shit because that & WoF were the reasons I made an UD to begin with.
    Well, considering half of the mages in PVP at the moment are arcane, and that Fingers of Frost only procs off of spells with snares, so Frostbolt and Cone of Cold (and improved Blizzard if they fixed the talent) then I would say yes, I have seen mages in PVP without this buff on them.
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  18. #38
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    Re: improved silence

    Quote Originally Posted by Abandon
    And I noticed how you carefully avoided the comparison to Hammer of Justice. And if you want to play this childish game, OMG DEEP FREEZE COSTS MANA YOU CANT CAST IT IF YOU HAVE NO MANA UNCONTROLLED STUN.

    Deep Freeze can be cast as a random proc (Fingers of Frost) or when another ability is cast first. The combo point is, along with the energy cost, the cost of "casting" Kidney Shot.

    In that case every ability in the game is a "beneficial buff". HEY I STABBED THIS GUY AND HE DIED AND NOW I CAN BANDAGE WITHOUT INTERRUPTION, THAT MAKES MY STAB A HEAL!
    Stop reaching, comparing a stun castable on enemy players if they are frozen to a buff that absorbs damage on a friendly player is stupid, and you trying to point out situations where it will help you does not change that. Every ability in the game is a buff by your logic.

    How sad that you are so obsessed with your little rooms in the arena that you have forgotten that there are battlegrounds where you can also PVP.
    Well, considering half of the mages in PVP at the moment are arcane, and that Fingers of Frost only procs off of spells with snares, so Frostbolt and Cone of Cold (and improved Blizzard if they fixed the talent) then I would say yes, I have seen mages in PVP without this buff on them.
    what about ur ice/frost armor? that procs a snare.
    and btw, ur trying to win a qq war with a shadow priest, as a mage, in s5. you will not win

  19. #39

    Re: improved silence

    Just a quick question actually, why are you complaining at me about warlocks gaymer77? I agree that Shadow priests need a buff, you can check the various suggestions for making them competative in PVP I have made on this forum if you like. I feel no need to defend warlocks or their pets, and will not be drawn into a discussion about them.

    I responded to someone who called Deep Freeze a controlled stun, which I disagree with, when you compare it to Hammer of Justice for example. If Deep Freeze did not require the target to be frozen, then I would concede, but as it is it there are some times where this ability is off cooldown and still completely useless due to the target not being frozen or me not getting a 15% proc for Fingers of Frost.

    Oh, and Fingers of Frost and Frostbite always proc together, feonix. So if you do freeze someone with Frostbite, then Fingers of Frost will proc as well 100% of the time, and so if they had not been frozen by Frostbite then the Fingers of Frost would not have procced on its own. Also, I am not trying to "beat priests at qq". I have a mage and a priest, and the mage gives much more control and options than the priest does. I am agreeing that I think priests need a stun/snare/disarm as well as more survivability outside of six seconds of self-banishment called Dispersion.
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  20. #40
    Scarab Lord AetherMcLoud's Avatar
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    Re: improved silence

    Quote Originally Posted by Abandon
    And if you press Deep Freeze, nothing happens. You press can the button and nothing happens simply because you have not fulfilled a condition before casting it, I would not consider that a completely controlled stun. Or you can call it a controlled stun that you can only cast when you give the target a specific debuff before casting it, if you like.

    I would call Kidney Shot a controlled stun.
    I think we already agreed that calling Deep Freeze conditional is a-ok. And gaymer77 pretty much pwned you on your definition of a controlled stun :P.

    Being in control of something means you know whats going to happen. You DO know that WHEN you target is frozen OR you have that "Ima countin ma targets as frozen" buff running THEN your deepfreeze WILL STUN your target.

    There are no uncontrolled sequences in there. A simple condition has to be met and then you control what happens. You push the deepfreeze button, target gets stunned. You don't push the button, target doesn't get stunned.

    Same is true for PW:Shield. I DO know that WHEN weakened soul is not on my target THEN my shield will shield him. Simple condition again. Full control though, because it's not like weakened soul is a proc or has some chance to be finished before 15/13 seconds.

    Blackout was uncontrolled. You cast your spells, and sometimes the target gets stunned. You do not know the causality between spell cast - target stunned. It just happened. That is uncontrolled.

    ----

    To make a real life example:

    There are a whole lot of conditions that must be met so you can drive your car, shift gears, and make it move left and right when you steer. Conditions like [fuel not empty], [fuses not blown] and [whatever, I dunno shit about cars ]. Yet, when you drive, you ARE in control of your car. At least until you lose it :P

    You might not be in control of the time the fuses blow and the car won't start. You might not be in control when the wheels lose grip because of thin ice, but most of the time driving through the streets with CAPS LOCK (which we all know is cruise control for awesome! :P) you are in control of your car.

    ----

    The same is true for deep freeze: The condition is [target counts as frozen]. That may be achieved through icy fingers I think it is called (where slowed targets count as frozen to you), or frost nova, or frost armor procs or whatever. While you cannot control frost armor procs, you CAN control frost novas and icy fingers. And then you can control the stun.

    Now saying deep freeze is uncontrolled because it has conditions attached is rather... illogical. Fallacy of cum hoc ergo propter hoc IIRC. One thing doesn't have anything to do with the other.

    It doesn't matter if there is a condition to be met or not, something that is controlled can have conditions attached or not, it won't change a thing about it being controlled, or not bein controlled.

    Quote Originally Posted by Annesh
    In your defense, arguing with AetherMcLoud can make even the most rational of people into foam-spitting lunatics. But you're still wrong and bad.
    Muahah, my reputation as a Wordmonger is rising! :P

    On a personal note, I might make that quote my signature

    ----

    Edit:

    Quote Originally Posted by Abandon
    If Deep Freeze did not require the target to be frozen, then I would concede, but as it is it there are some times where this ability is off cooldown and still completely useless due to the target not being frozen or me not getting a 15% proc for Fingers of Frost.
    So your definition of a controlled ability is that there must be no time where the ability is off cooldown but not usable? I'll leave the conditions of having enough energy/rage/mana/runes and being in range (and having regents in case of battlerez, etc.) out because I agree, saying those conditions are the same as having a target being frozen is, well, childish. But...

    PW:Shield is uncontrolled? [Must not have weakened soul] [Must be in same party/raid]
    Pestilence is uncontrolled? [Target must be diseased]
    Shadowpriest Replenishment is uncontrolled? [Must use Mindblast to trigger] [Target must have Vampiric Touch debuff]
    Windshock/Kick/Counterspell is uncontrolled? [Target must be casting for the ability to have an effect]
    <The druid spell that removes hots but gives a instantheal instead> is uncontrolled? [target must have hot effect]
    Corpse Explosion is uncontrolled? [Needs to have corpse around]
    Ambush is uncontrolled? [Must be stealthed] [Must be behind target]

    Those are just a few examples from the 3 classes I play(ed). Do you really call all those uncontrolled abilities?

    I can assure you that I am in full control if and when my replenishment triggers on my priest. I am in full control of Corpse Explosion if there is a corpse nearby on my DK. And I am in full control of my ambushes on my (level 70) rogue.
    I'm Commander Shepard and this is my favorite signature on the forum.

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