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  1. #1
    Mechagnome
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    The new ToW Glyph

    30% of the SP value granted to the Shaman for 5mins on use.

    So, 30% of 210 = 63

    I guess the question for you clever theory crafters is whether a flat 63 SP outdoes 4% on LB. Personally I'm guessing it does, but I'm notoriously crap with the mechanics of this game.


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  2. #2

    Re: The new ToW Glyph

    Quote Originally Posted by Torture
    30% of the SP value granted to the Shaman for 5mins on use.

    So, 30% of 210 = 63
    Well ToW at 80 adds 280 SP

    So, 30% of 280 = 84

    I personally think this will out perform the 4% to lightning bolt at current gear levels, but we will have to wait and see from the people who figure out the stats.

  3. #3

    Re: The new ToW Glyph

    At current standings, i think that i'd drop the LvB glyph - mainly because LvB is used less than LB, and we'll be spamming LB even more on bosses anyways due to CL's nerf, so say 5 or so LB's compared to one LvB, Lavaburst would gain 10% spower, say it's just you on a heroic dummy boss equivalent, that's 2440 [+125 from flask totals it to 2564] spell power (with FTW buffed, and normal ToW), so that's 240extra spell damage [254] on LvB, because it's relatively quick (slow cast gains more sp effect) it'll probably only be around 60-130 [65-135] actual damage, with guestimations... not bothered to go look at maths at 2am. I'm sure these values won't be effected too much with Glyph of ToW.

    With the LB Glyph, LB's on average do around 3.1k (without overload procs) at 2440 sp, so 3100/104*100 = 2980, which is an increase of 120, we're then using this 4/5 times in our rotation = 480/600 extra overall damage, and most people will be at around 50% crit, or higher and LB's crit for 6.2-6.6k so that's 240~, i'm not saying that this would then result in 240x2 + 120x2 = 720, due to RNG, and with procs such as dying curse and whatnot these values change but... I'm not doing a whole set of other maths at 2am for it all. :P

    Dnd yes, our gear will be changing to more +sp, +crit, +haste, but that only really seems to point out that ToW replacing Lava would be better, because LB would gain even more damage than LvB as LvB doesn't scale with crit, scales worse than LB with haste and sp may scale slightly better with LvB than with LB... again, not sure at the math..... 2:30am + beer + laziness, eitherway i thought i'd give a quick view on it with some math and some actual meat to my reason...

    Not added in math for ToW gained for having either glyph due to the results wouldn't so much that LvB > LB glyph... P.S. Don't troll... State why i am wrong / correct if i am, with actual evidence than troll posts... or why might LvB glyph beat LB glyph anyways... Might be bothered with the math in the morning to prove/disprove my own points :/ don't mind if someone beats me there though.

  4. #4

    Re: The new ToW Glyph

    i was thinking of trying dropping flameshock glyph and dropping it from my rotation...see what that did to my dps...might be terrible ..also might be viable....any thoughts?...

    This work of art was made by Paz.

  5. #5

    Re: The new ToW Glyph

    Quote Originally Posted by cyloria
    i was thinking of trying dropping flameshock glyph and dropping it from my rotation...see what that did to my dps...might be terrible ..also might be viable....any thoughts?...
    adding in another gcd before each lvb does not sound viable. Nor does clipping your FS dot with LvB.
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  6. #6
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    Re: The new ToW Glyph

    Any glyph that doesnt scale (like Water Mastery for Resto) isnt good.

    The more spellpower you got the less usefull this one becomes, and 4% more dmg on LB or10% more spellpower o LvB gets better.

    Flat numbers can be achieved with gear, % modificators cannot.

    With Ulduar gear spellpower will get higher and higher, and im pretty sure current glyphs will be better than this one. Still math will be prolly done, and i might be wrong

  7. #7
    Mechagnome
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    Re: The new ToW Glyph

    Quote Originally Posted by Caillin
    Well ToW at 80 adds 280 SP
    Doh, that's what comes from posting before consuming enough coffee, thanks for correcting me

    Armory Link
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  8. #8

    Re: The new ToW Glyph

    Quote Originally Posted by Instant
    Any glyph that doesnt scale (like Water Mastery for Resto) isnt good.

    The more spellpower you got the less usefull this one becomes, and 4% more dmg on LB or10% more spellpower o LvB gets better.

    Flat numbers can be achieved with gear, % modificators cannot.

    With Ulduar gear spellpower will get higher and higher, and im pretty sure current glyphs will be better than this one. Still math will be prolly done, and i might be wrong

    i agree with this guy here, the totem glyph may look nice, but 30% of a constant is still a constant no matter how you spin it.The percentage based glyphs will indeed scale.The flat based spell amounts won't.
    i hope it becomes a minor glyph coz i am getting sick of getting all these new major glyphs (which are too many) and the minor ones are not even worth giving a serious look at

  9. #9

    Re: The new ToW Glyph

    Quote Originally Posted by walexia

    i agree with this guy here, the totem glyph may look nice, but 30% of a constant is still a constant no matter how you spin it.The percentage based glyphs will indeed scale.The flat based spell amounts won't.
    i hope it becomes a minor glyph coz i am getting sick of getting all these new major glyphs (which are too many) and the minor ones are not even worth giving a serious look at
    Minor glyphs aren't supposed to be given any serious looks. They're for cosmetic effects and convenience.

    A scaling glyph that is worse than a constant glyph at your gear level shouldn't be used. Currently, it's believed that at t7 that the ToW glyph is better than the Lava glyph. I haven't done any math myself, but according to the math I'm seeing on EJ, Glyph of Lava adds an average of 88.6 dps at 2800 spell damage. At about that level, spell damage gives ~1.2 dps, which would come out as 106.32 dps.

    It's kind of a misnomer to say that the glyph of ToW doesn't scale, because that implies that spell damage gives you the same amount of damage regardless of your haste and crit. I imagine that at t8 levels, Glyph of Lava will be doing slightly more, and unless the t8 set bonus gives us a lower CD on Lava Burst, ToW will still be ahead.
    I am an overflowing pot of wit.

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  10. #10

    Re: The new ToW Glyph

    Quote Originally Posted by Marakara
    Minor glyphs aren't supposed to be given any serious looks. They're for cosmetic effects and convenience.

    A scaling glyph that is worse than a constant glyph at your gear level shouldn't be used. Currently, it's believed that at t7 that the ToW glyph is better than the Lava glyph. I haven't done any math myself, but according to the math I'm seeing on EJ, Glyph of Lava adds an average of 88.6 dps at 2800 spell damage. At about that level, spell damage gives ~1.2 dps, which would come out as 106.32 dps.

    It's kind of a misnomer to say that the glyph of ToW doesn't scale, because that implies that spell damage gives you the same amount of damage regardless of your haste and crit. I imagine that at t8 levels, Glyph of Lava will be doing slightly more, and unless the t8 set bonus gives us a lower CD on Lava Burst, ToW will still be ahead.

    I propably did'nt express my view on minor glyphs as clearly as i wanted but to put it better, i could say that 3 sockets for major glyphs in incredibly limmiting and leaves the strategy out of choosing the best glyphs for what you need, i expected the minor glyphs to be of much higher value than what they are now, instead of their often trivial buffs like reduced cool downs on certain abilities that may not be detrimental to raiding performance.So yeah i would have loved to have had more space to work with in terms of sockets for glyphs .But ow well can't force blizz to do that but i can't help the feeling evrytime they come out with a couple of glyphs that just eill never see any use because of the limited slots we have force us to take only the most important out of the huge selection.

    anyway as for the glyph of tow i guess they may be be introducing a scalign glyph much later on , i believe they may not wanna spoil us with a scalling good "one size fits all" glyph so early in the expansion.I also believe it would be dumb for blizz to produce a glyph that under performs the main 3 that ele shammies rely on at the moment.So yes i guess if we were all for this glyph ,the most important question would be how long could we use this glyph and then whether we would switch back to our old glyph then or get one of the new ones around at that time.

    Otherwise i'm just playing the devils advocate here to get to the bottom the issue as to whether the totem is worth it in the first place.I do believe however one could use a dps simulator propably like the ones they might use in EJ to get extrapolate a graph on it's performance versus it's replacement glyph to help us determine what stats in particular would justify a change considering of course that blizz would not have released a replacement for that glyph by then.

    <wall of text crit ends here>


    (also pardon my spelling and english it is horrible)

  11. #11

    Re: The new ToW Glyph

    Again, you say that ToW doesn't scale, but the higher your gear is, the more dps you're going to get from spell damage. It's the same as the glyph of lava. Infact, because of the low percentage of dps lava burst actually takes up, I'd argue that ToW scales better than glyph of lava. As you increase haste and crit, LB will do more and more damage compared to LvB. LvB will still do more dps, but the CD limits how much of that dps you can apply to your total dps.
    I am an overflowing pot of wit.

    Pewpew I'm better than you.

  12. #12

    Re: The new ToW Glyph

    Quote Originally Posted by Marakara
    Again, you say that ToW doesn't scale, but the higher your gear is, the more dps you're going to get from spell damage. It's the same as the glyph of lava. Infact, because of the low percentage of dps lava burst actually takes up, I'd argue that ToW scales better than glyph of lava. As you increase haste and crit, LB will do more and more damage compared to LvB. LvB will still do more dps, but the CD limits how much of that dps you can apply to your total dps.

    ahhh i see what your saying , pardon my silliness .In most rotatios even cl heavy ones LB is indeed an a strong 47-50% of damage, and it amazingly(in my gear) crits for max 8k while my LvB crits for max 10k, but has a cooldown and requisite of flameshock dot.So if you could squezze in enough guaranteed LB crits in the cooldown of a LvB you could even forgo LvB with the right amount of haste and crit.Spelldmage is indeed a stat you can never have enough of but yeah i would love to see this in a simulation

  13. #13

    Re: The new ToW Glyph

    Quote Originally Posted by walexia

    ahhh i see what your saying , pardon my silliness .In most rotatios even cl heavy ones LB is indeed an a strong 47-50% of damage, and it amazingly(in my gear) crits for max 8k while my LvB crits for max 10k, but has a cooldown and requisite of flameshock dot.So if you could squezze in enough guaranteed LB crits in the cooldown of a LvB you could even forgo LvB with the right amount of haste and crit.Spelldmage is indeed a stat you can never have enough of but yeah i would love to see this in a simulation
    I don't think there's a point where LB spams are better than LvB + FS. If you get to the point where you're at 100% crit, then you would forego the FS. LvB always does more damage than LB.
    I am an overflowing pot of wit.

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  14. #14

    Re: The new ToW Glyph

    Quote Originally Posted by Marakara
    It's kind of a misnomer to say that the glyph of ToW doesn't scale, because that implies that spell damage gives you the same amount of damage regardless of your haste and crit. I imagine that at t8 levels, Glyph of Lava will be doing slightly more, and unless the t8 set bonus gives us a lower CD on Lava Burst, ToW will still be ahead.
    It is a bit of a misnomer as everything 'scales', but mathematically it doesn't scale as well as the LvB bonuses. Keep in mind that % bonuses are multiplicative and spellpower has coefficients built into it. You may be getting 83 spellpower on the doll, but that's hardly what youll get on your spells, where as the 10% from the glyph multiples every other effect and talent already on the table, including debuffs.

    spellpower effects the base you're working with, but it needs to be a large amount to compare to 10%. with those formulas you'd need a significant amount of spellpower to compete with the 10% LVB glyph to make up for the loss of it on LVB.

    The return on LB is however a different story, as the LVB glyph doesn't effect it, and TOW does. However, keep in mind that LVB is also 100% guaranteed to crit, increasing the scaling math by an extreme margin. My guess is that that overall dps wise, the ToW glyph will slightly under perform the LVB glyph until you reach a certain (unknown) amount of haste or if you have a very low (sub 1600) amount of spellpower.

    Haste makes spellpower more valueable, but % scaling talents make haste more valueable. This means that haste is very much the best scaling attribute for casters by default (changes based on the fight/ mana etc). The more spellpower you get, until a new rank of ToW in the next expansion, the less valueable this glyph becomes.

    The end result should be in t8 gear, the LVB glyph will be the best choice. I see this ToW glyph as a way to level / get started gearing.

  15. #15

    Re: The new ToW Glyph

    Quote Originally Posted by Marakara
    I don't think there's a point where LB spams are better than LvB + FS. If you get to the point where you're at 100% crit, then you would forego the FS. LvB always does more damage than LB.
    Agreed. Youll never drop Lava Burst from your rotation, just as non crits do more damage by default. However in fights like Loatheb, you definitely dont want to be using flame shock. I'm sure there's a mathematical point, but I'd guess it to be at the 70% range, which is relatively unobtainable. And crit is a terrible stat to stack, even with our new crit talents.

    Raid buffs / debuffs give scaling critical bonuses, where as crit rating scales very poorly on gear. Haste is still our dominant stat because it scales superbly with with every talent we have. The idea is not to remove FS from the rotation, but squeeze more LB's inbetween FS / LVB. Once you hit that sweet spot, stack spellpower.

  16. #16
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    Re: The new ToW Glyph

    I hadn't considered replacing the Lava glyph tbh, but that could be naivity on my part.

    I was more interested in at what point 4% extra LB damage will add more overall DPS than a flat 83 SP bonus (taking into account that the SP additionally impacts on LvB, FS and Magma / CL on trash).

    I'm sure there must be a benchmark, but I'm danmned if I know how to figure it out.

    My feeling is that at lower gear levels (including T7) 83 SP is going to be a bigger overall DPS increase than 4% on LB.

    Of course, the new arguement in my head thanks to this discussion thus far, is at T7 gear levels, will replacing the glyph of Lava prove a bigger increase than replacing the glyph of LB.

    Hopefully some clever types will wander along with some robust theory crafting


    Armory Link
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  17. #17

    Re: The new ToW Glyph

    Lava:
    With: 11154 crit.
    Without: 10331 crit.
    Difference: 823 (2799 spellpower)
    Per rotation that is 1646 extra damage from the glyph (2 LvB casts).
    Divide by rotation time, 18.58, and we get 88.6 dps.

    Lightning Bolt
    Average damage with: 6984
    Average damage without: 6715
    Difference: 269
    Per rotation that is 2152 extra damage (8 Lb casts)
    Divide by rotation time, 18.58, and we get 115.8
    From EJ, Binkenstein. Sorry for stealing your math
    I am an overflowing pot of wit.

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  18. #18
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    Re: The new ToW Glyph

    So that shows LB glyph is gives bigger DPS boost

    As for ToW glyph, you're right that at current level it might be better. So i'd propose using it instead of LvB while getting ulduar gear, and changing it later on

    But tbh Glyph of ToW should be like this :

    Glyph of ToW - grands all your fire totems spellpower and crit bonus of your Totem of Wrath.

    This way ele shammy can use any fire totem while still providing a buff. What makes me sad is that wording on this glyph means they arent going to change ToW bonus to % amount of spellpower like a lock has, and it will be 280 And it sucks.

  19. #19

    Re: The new ToW Glyph

    Quote Originally Posted by Instant
    This way ele shammy can use any fire totem while still providing a buff. What makes me sad is that wording on this glyph means they arent going to change ToW bonus to % amount of spellpower like a lock has, and it will be 280 And it sucks.
    I think your over thinking it, 280 spell power to the whole raid is probably the best buff you can give out there, if they changed it to a % it would scale better for some but would eliminate any future ranks of the spell. Not everything in WoW is meant to scale, ToW is pretty OP, and its unique, im just happy we have something no one else can bring to a raid.

  20. #20

    Re: The new ToW Glyph

    Quote Originally Posted by Caillin
    I think your over thinking it, 280 spell power to the whole raid is probably the best buff you can give out there, if they changed it to a % it would scale better for some but would eliminate any future ranks of the spell. Not everything in WoW is meant to scale, ToW is pretty OP, and its unique, im just happy we have something no one else can bring to a raid.
    Currently, bis locks can hit around 2800 spell damage. In Ulduar, they certainly can. Afaik, it doesn't work like UR (10% of our own spell damage) but 10% of the lock's spell damage.
    I am an overflowing pot of wit.

    Pewpew I'm better than you.

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