Beast Mastery Raid DPS needs some help: Now!

[Intwine]

I love BM. I enjoy seeing my pet do quite some damage. Actually, it isn't just me who thinks that way but a substantial chunk of the Hunter player base also enjoys raiding as a Beast Master.

Hunters are a pure DPS class. Ideally, all Hunter specs should do comparable damage. Top end spec should mean at most 100 DPS more on the spreadsheet, not 800 DPS more.
Survival has become like the old fan movie "World of Roguecraft", wherein you spec it, and your skill goes up by "300%" as in World of Roguecraft.

The thing is, that Hunters are a pure class, and every tree ought to do comparable DPS. I am fine with Surv doing at most 100 sustained DPS over BM, but 800 sustained DPS over Beast Mastery with the same gear is just plain wrong and also bad game design.

This is golden...

In BC BM hunters were way better in raw dps then other specs, other specs complained about it but they were told to suck it up and respec or be satisfied wiith beeing a buffing spec (TSA or EW), this lasted the WHOLE xpac.

In the first 2.5/3months of LK BM was way OP with the 50/21/0 builds, but MM could keep up for a long time SV was still the stepchild..
BM was gloating that we should respec or shutup.

Now, you got a 1month taste of what MM/SV had to put up with for more then 2years and now you are saying "yeayeah ideally we sould do equal dmg" and that whoever specs SV gets a 300% skill boost..

You know, bad Huntard with BM macro could still be verry good DPS in BC and LK till the nerf, bad Huntards are still bad huntards when they spec SV and dont know what to do when LNL prcos and chaincast exps or keep mashing there castsequence macro because thats what they learned while beeing BM.

Ow, and a SPriest/Ret Pala/feral&Boomkin/Enh&Ele shammy are just as much a DPS class as the socalled "pure" classes, get off your high horse.

ow, and i think 15/20% of DPS is a reasonable ammount of DPS, 50/60% is not.

[Sturmbringe]

Ow, and a SPriest/Ret Pala/feral&Boomkin/Enh&Ele shammy are just as much a DPS class as the socalled "pure" classes, get off your high horse.

My friend the Crab, does not seem to agree with you, sadly.

We don’t pretend the numbers on the PTR are perfect yet. But the overall goal is two dps buckets: locks, hunters, rogues and mages in the first bucket, and every other dps spec in the second bucket. The buckets ideally don’t vary by very much and all of that is dependent upon having equitable skill, gear and encounter specifics.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...2904&sid=1#256

Now, I do agree with GC's vision of the game. It is my understanding that the vast majority of the player base does agree with GC's vision of the game as well.

[Intwine]

My friend the Crab, does not seem to agree with you, sadly.

That crab could also be the reason you are getting beaten by "hybrids".
Try using a dps pet for a change

[Koumaru]

Holy crap, Sturmbringe tamed Ghostcrawler?

[Sturmbringe]

That crab could also be the reason you are getting beaten by "hybrids".
Try using a dps pet for a change

No, in fact I am a Raptor Fanatic (TM).


http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/5...2609173702.jpg

I raid with my favourite Red Raptor. Though I'd guess I'd make an exception for the honor of raiding with GC

[comablack]

as long as 1 spec can do 1 more dps than the others in raids it will always be "shut up and respec"

if a new class could spec in "cute kittens" "fluffy bunnies" or "sad eyed puppies"
and one spec did more dps than the other, it will be "shut up and respec"

[Sturmbringe]

In Xumio's own words from the US Forums (Author of the Survival Raiding Guide at the US Forums):

Xumio

I don't think you've adequately tested BM vs Surv with equally geared and SKILLED hunter. Hitting the dummy one test w/o changing gems, enchants, glyphs, etc will not yield any useful results. The point remains that potential max dps of Survival is ~800-1000 higher than BM right now. SKILLED and INTELLIGENT hunters have acknowledged the facts and numerical proof and that is why are not raiding BM.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...43291846&sid=1

Which in fact complements nicely my observation from further up the thread:

Post#3 Why Beast Mastery does not scale well with gear compared to Survival

As you can see now, the WHOLE Survival Tree is built around scaling. They scale exceedingly well with gear as well as with raid buffs. This is why a simple respec and reglyph from Beast Mastery to Survival with my current gear, would net me a huge DPS increase. Perhaps 1 to 1.5k more burst DPS than my current burst DPS and about 800 sustained DPS. This is actually and I underline, BAD GAME DESIGN and isn't supposed to be happening in a well-designed game. This fact shows exactly how well designed is the Survival tree and how disadvantaged is the Beast Mastery tree for end-game raiding.

[Sturmbringe]

Just returned from the PTR: Wild Hunt was nerfed again, for a second time. This is actually very serious, it now makes the 51 Beast Mastery Talent garbage again and hardly worth to spec into.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LIVE:

Hunter AP/Stamina: 4,145/17,073
Pet AP/Stamina: 1,631/11,202

Old PTR 1:

Hunter AP/Stamina: 4,145/17,073
Pet AP/Stamina: 3,372/15,378 (2/2 Wild Hunt)

Old PTR 2 (HOTFIX TO BUGGED WILD HUNT):

Hunter AP/Stamina: 4,145/17,073
Pet AP/Stamina: 2,014/13,076 (2/2 Wild Hunt) Increases the contribution your pet gets from your Attack Power by 40%.

PTR 3.1.0 Build 9658 (WILD HUNT NERF)

Hunter AP/Stamina: 4,145/17,073
Pet AP/Stamina: 1,823/13,076 (2/2 Wild Hunt) **NEW:Increases the contribution your pet gets from your Attack Power by 20%.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Loss (over Old PTR 1) of: 1,549 pet AP & 2,302 pet HP

Gain (over Current Live) of: 192 pet AP and 1,874 pet Health Points.

[Vzelik]

Well, If this thread requires someone to be a dick then I'll be it.

You're crying over the fact that BM gets outdps'd by hybrids and other pure DPS class. Meanwhile, you have two OTHER spec's that you could spec and do far more damage, and be at or above the level of Hybrids and your PURE dps classes.


All of your extremely lengthy posts in which you have been complaining and begging for changes to BM ignore the fact that after 3.1 goes live, hunters are going to have 2 different raiding spec's that should top damage.


If you're looking for some sort of change to make BM back to the glory days of 3.0, you need a steady shot change.

[rasmil]

If Blizzard ever wants hunters to be a respectable class they will never make BM the raid spec of choice again.

[Sturmbringe]

If you're looking for some sort of change to make BM back to the glory days of 3.0, you need a steady shot change.

I agree.

Quoting the OP:

Suggestion:
-----------------

You need to come up with a way to buff up our Raid DPS without buffing up the DPS of other trees or that of the pet too much. A nice way would be to add + Steady Shot damage to the Ferocious Inspiration talent, which is in any case way down the Beast Mastery tree, and won’t affect PvP at all, due to the Steady Shot long cast time. Also, the pet certainly needs more than +200 AP and +1% pet damage if we are to see Beast Mastery ever be even REMOTELY competitive in end game raids.

Frankly, following today's nerf I have lost hope. What today's change means, is that we will be getting an insignificant DPS increase in 3.1, and basically Beast Mastery will continue to be non-raid viable.

[Vzelik]

If Blizzard ever wants hunters to be a respectable class they will never make BM the raid spec of choice again.

No one will ever respect hunters, period.

Back in BC when hunter's were in drain teams, they claimed it took no skill.
Back in BC when most hunter's were BM and scrolled a macro, they claimed it took no skill.

now?

They claim survival in PvP takes no skill.
BM takes no skill cause the pet does 40% of a hunters damage.
Survival takes no skill cause explosive shot is OP


People are idiots.

[Nayias]

Just out of sheer curiosity...

You say you like BM partially because you are attached to your pet...yet you have a non-exotic raptor? Correct me if I am wrong, but this makes no sense to me at all....

Maybe, just maybe, you should give a different spec a fair shot before you complain too much....you might enjoy pressing more than one button.

[Dubious]

exotic pets fail
they are ugly
they are huge < small
they make bad sounds (devilsaur/corehound)

cat ftw and i like BM
imo having a pet should be the 51 point BM talent
surv and markmanship shouldnt be allowed to use pets
in raids/groups ofc

[Baabinator]

No one will ever respect hunters, period.

Back in BC when hunter's were in drain teams, they claimed it took no skill.
Back in BC when most hunter's were BM and scrolled a macro, they claimed it took no skill.

now?

They claim survival in PvP takes no skill.
BM takes no skill cause the pet does 40% of a hunters damage.
Survival takes no skill cause explosive shot is OP


People are idiots.

Fully Agreed, *IMO* lots of hunTARDS (not referring to actually skilled hunters) rerolled the DK class when WOTLK came out. So my point of view has changed towards 80% of the hunter population.

What the BM class needs is not another cooldown to blow, or a mere pet boost. They need their personal damage boosted.

To do this, my idea would be having haste affect Steady Shot to a casting time down to 1.0 second. This would not impact PVP alot, and would smoothe itemization for hunters out. This would also increase the potential of Go for the Throat (MMS talent, which restores focus), and increasing BM dps just a tad bit more.

Just an idea - construct, not flame -

[Buffalobro]

There's alot of rude poster's on mmo kinda annoying cause EJ post have been following the same format.

My gear is close to BiS Id say I'm 5 pieces off from the top of my head. I've played every spec for a period of time and I strive to play with Best Spec and not what spec I'd like to play cause I'm in a raiding guild. you don't have that option when your trying to do 6min Malygos kills which I've already done. In Pre-BC I was a 20-29 bracket Warsong Gulch runner Marksmen I Believe.

In BC I was Survival for the expose weakness buff in Hyjal where I had +1200 agility providing 250+ap to melee dmg to the raid and rarely broke 2k dps. I switched to BM and would be in the top 3 85% of the raids with warlocks or rogues keeping up. I dont think my guild at the time had a good Mage. It was fun and that was defintly a 1 button class for steady's and 1 I-Win button which made damage OP.

When LK came out 50/21 BM was amazing using double BW and i agreed there should be a nerf-what happened was too far for my taste and even blizzard retro buffed there nerfs. going to survival was a odd adjustment since i was spamming steady's that my finger had cramps. after about a month I fell into a groove and I've definitely have been in the top 5 95% of the time. I've noticed numbers have been getting closer and the 4 pure dps classes have been in the highest spots. Ghost crawler said it best "if hybrid classes do just as much as pure dps classes, why play a pure dps class" especially with dual spec coming.

To the OP, Thank you for a informative post about BM's current status. I believe BM and Marks should be pve class and Survival the pvp class.

-and to all those idiots out there who think BM is still a 1 macro class, your retarted and you missed the whole Arcane Shot patches. BM would be something like this serpent,arcane,Aimed,steady,steady,arcane.

and all three specs have 1 macro that pops either readiness,BW,call of the wild,use 13,use 14,blood fury. and to be honest each spec would change that rotation from arcane,to chimera,to explosive shot. Hunter class specs are just pathetic now. i'll still play it just so i can see the encounters

[Drina]

Sturmbringe you are babbling on like a broken record.

(a) Why did you make and exceedingly long post on mmo when you should have been posting it on the Blizzard forums?

(b) As a number of other people stated, why are you comparing your dps with naxx10/heroic/badge gear to others with BiS? (Of course there will be a huge difference)

(c) Why quote two of the worst fights dps meters to compare against other dps? (Thaddius' buff for example does not increase the pets dps which is significant for BM) Try listing a whole raids boss dps and see the comparison!

(d) Unless I missed it (and I think someone else also pointed out) it is not about scaling of the hunter it is about scaling of the pet. I agree the BM spec is weak but for the reason that BM did well in early LK because pets scale very well with buffs which dont increase later in end game. So there was an initial imbalance between early BM and later BM dps because of pets. The hunter/spec itself is weak.

(e) Part of the overall raid weakness is pets are a significant proportion of a BM hunters dps but pets suffer greatly on some encounters. A key here is to remove the pet and buff the BM hunter in such encounters (e.g. pet sacrifice or pet merging).

(f) BM hunters have always been great at sustained static dps however they have little in the way of DoT's or Burst damage when moving around. IMO serpents swiftness is the spec's downfall. It can unbalance very easily hence the roller coaster ride of sit back and spam a 2 shot macro historically. One solution would be to remove Kill Command from general hunter skills and make it a 1pt talent higher in the BM tree (e.g. 31/41 perhaps by combining BW & The Beast Within into one talent). The new KC would be like the very first suggestion they made where it does an instant damage attack on the target. This could then be incorporated into the hunter rotation (at the same time a solution also needs to be applied to pet survivability).

[PaladinFTW]

This is golden...

Ow, and a SPriest/Ret Pala/feral&Boomkin/Enh&Ele shammy are just as much a DPS class as the socalled "pure" classes, get off your high horse.

ow, and i think 15/20% of DPS is a reasonable ammount of DPS, 50/60% is not.

That is a load of crap, I have always played hybrids. The design mantra behind them is that their dps isn't supposed to be in the same league as a pure dps class, but they are supposed to excel at either healing or tanking and bring some form of utility when specced as dps. You guys are taking all this too seriously anyways, no one really cares about great dps except other dpsers, it's the tanks that are the key members of the group, you ever tried tanking a raid you've never done? It's a hell of alot harder than dpsing a raid you've never done, that's why it's so hard for tanks to get into raiding. I do agree with the main topic of this post however, many people made hunter's as their mains because they were interested in an archer, other's make hunter's because they like virtual pets, some don't even particularly care for archer classes in games, I know I don't. If blizz doesn't want to make BM the spec that scales with gear that is fine, but it should at least be out dpsing hybrids.

[Elenion]

Someone may have pointed out earlier but I didn't want to read all so here goes another main reason why BM is lacking behind.

Every gear comes with either haste or ArP along with other obvious hunter stats but BM can't benefit much from either. The only time you won't see neither is when there's hit rating and you will only need several of those.

BM already passively gain enough haste to keep steady casting time at optimal.
ArP only benefit hunter and not the pet even though pet contribute greater portion in total DPS thus less useful.

[Elenion]

That is a load of crap, I have always played hybrids. The design mantra behind them is that their dps isn't supposed to be in the same league as a pure dps class, but they are supposed to excel at either healing or tanking and bring some form of utility when specced as dps. You guys are taking all this too seriously anyways, no one really cares about great dps except other dpsers, it's the tanks that are the key members of the group, you ever tried tanking a raid you've never done? It's a hell of alot harder than dpsing a raid you've never done, that's why it's so hard for tanks to get into raiding. I do agree with the main topic of this post however, many people made hunter's as their mains because they were interested in an archer, other's make hunter's because they like virtual pets, some don't even particularly care for archer classes in games, I know I don't. If blizz doesn't want to make BM the spec that scales with gear that is fine, but it should at least be out dpsing hybrids.

I agree that pure DPS class should excel in DPS department compare to hybrid classes as they got more utilities and diversity in their role. Ghostcrawler already said they are planning to make BM on par with two other specs but since we already have two specs competitive for raid setting they are putting BM at the bottom of agenda, most likely part of next expansion when they are hauling this class anyway so they don't need to waste time retuning for one patch only. As I assume tweaking one or two talents in BM tree won't be sufficient to scale up.