How to Dps ( Moonkin )

[Druidicbeast]

Its not uncommon that I am able to out dps other druids who do stack haste>crit just because I am gaining more benefits from my criticals, or maybe I'm just lucky.

I would be interested in seeing some of your WWS reports. At any rate, this is a pretty good read on haste vs. crit if anyone is interested.

http://elitistjerks.com/blogs/adorie...o_ratings.html

[Sunfyre]

I like taking crit > haste.

I originally took crit so I woudln't burn through mana and still keep up damage like Oomkins were notorious for in BC, because if you don't have mana you can't do damage. I know that rarely happens in WOTLK but getting that 2% mana back is also nice from Improved Moonkin Form.

Now, I have continued taking crit over haste because most balance druid talents revolve around criticals. If you have a higher crit Nature's Grace and Eclipse proc more often and could possibly exceed the need for as much haste. Its not uncommon that I am able to out dps other druids who do stack haste>crit just because I am gaining more benefits from my criticals, or maybe I'm just lucky. Haste at times is more beneficial than crit, its just not for me.

Edit:I am not trying to justify that its okay to take crit gear over a item with haste that is substantially better, that is just stupid.

In 3.1, there will be a "soft cap" of haste, at which point lunar eclipse becomes better then solar eclipse. (It's about 14%). After that point, it may be worthwhile to pile on the crit to make up for the loss of mana regen we're going to face.

I have a forum post about this over on Owlkin.org, if any of you want to participate there, where multiple topics can be discussed in multiple threads, instead of having just one moonkin thread that's 85 pages long.

[Wilshire153]

I would be interested in seeing some of your WWS reports. At any rate, this is a pretty good read on haste vs. crit if anyone is interested.

http://elitistjerks.com/blogs/adorie...o_ratings.html

Wow, that really made sense on the crit and haste issue. I can understand now why haste has an upper hand because the higher the percentage gets the less of an impact it makes when increasing that stat. Crit still may be more beneficial determining of the raid makeup or a non raid instance. I'm curious to see how this will play out in 3.1. Thanks for the link!

[Deleted]

Ofc this is oversimplified, but i think it shows my point that continues time block you can dps is a very very important parameter to judge the value of crit or haste for you on for that specific fight.

I'm on the same side than Degrador for this argument.

While your example shows how movement/phases can indeed negate some of the benefits of haste, there are other advantages than just "casting one more spell in X minutes". Casting continually is basically having a timeline where you are immobilized for the whole cast period and are able to make choices at discrete points (which represent the switch between one spell cast and the next). Movements, invulnerability phases or whatever happen at random moments on that line, and will either force you to interrupt casting (big loss) or allow you to finish casting and then do something fast.
In both cases, having the "decision points" nearer to each other allows for better adaptability, since the events have more chances to happen near a decision point than in the middle of casting :
- if you have to sacrifice a casting interval, you sacrifice a smaller amount of casting time
- if you can wait for the cast to finish, you can better chose how to do things/do them more safely
Smaller intervals means that more sacrifice cases get turned into "finish casting and move" choices.

Of course this doesn't allow for a theoretical best decision (too many random factors that can make one or the other ccase better), but between this trend for haste allowing more flexibility in decision making, the fact that haste is obviously better in static situation, and the abilities we have to still do dps on the move (dot refreshing, Typhoon, Starfall), i'll keep stacking haste even in movement intensive fights.

Edit : and while there's satisafaction in big crit number, i was quite thrilled with a 1.1s SF cast time during Lunar Eclipse yesterday (500+ haste, Embrace of the Spider, Heroism, Speed Potion and NG)

[Wilshire153]

If a balance druid fully talented has 0% crit and haste.(yes this is technically impossible)

Adding 1% haste would increase dps by 1%.

Adding 1% crit would increase dps by 1% as well, but would also be affected by the added bonuses of Eclipse and Natures grace making Crit superior.

[Degrador]

Adding 1% haste would increase dps by 1%.

Not necessarily - Haste doesn't increase the DPS of DoTs, only your direct casts. However it does reduce the GCD, so at least you get some benefit from Haste for DoT casting.

Adding 1% crit would increase dps by 1% as well, but would also be affected by the added bonuses of Eclipse and Natures grace making Crit superior.

Again, Crit doesn't affect DoTs. Also, the key thing is that Crit requires 50% more rating points compared to Haste.

You can't simply make comments like that without having math to back them up. And, as has been pointed out many times, the math shows that Haste Rating is better than Crit Rating for continuous casting.

[Wilshire153]

I've actually taken some time and devised a few equations on how you can figure out how much of a dps increase crit has from the talents: Nature's Grace and Eclipse

First of all if I have 0% crit and haste (yes this is impossible) 2500 dps and I were to add 1% crit my dps would become 2525 dps.

If I were to instead add 1% haste my dps would become 2525. There is no difference at between haste and crit in this sense.

The difference between haste and crit is haste is an additive and crit is a multiplicative

In the event that haste is higher that crit, crit will be more beneficial
In the event that crit is higher than your haste, haste will be more beneficial

If a full raid you should have 21% crit from buffs alone and have more crit from gear from gear alone. If you gear for nothing but haste you maybe have 15% haste from gear. Since haste is lower than crit haste will almost always be worth more than crit.

Haste also gains 50% more from rating than crit does but crit also comes from intellect so most of those points are made up.

This is explained more here

http://elitistjerks.com/blogs/adorie...o_ratings.html

However, haste does not trigger any of your talents where your critical do, this throws and entirely new variable into the equation.

The first talent we will take in consideration is Eclipse. Determining on what your crit percentage is determines how easily you will gain 60% chance of activating eclipse. If my crit chance is 20% I have a 12% chance of gaining this + 30% critical increase on Starfire if we are doing the current “popular rotation.”

CP  = Crit Percentage

(((0.006 x CP) x (CP + 30)) + (1- (0.006 x CP))) x CP =  (X) Eclipse DPS

But Eclipse only has the potential to be active 33.3333(repeating)% = (1/3) of the time you are dpsing. So that needs to be factored out as well.

Eclipse DPS = Edps
Non-Eclipse DPS = Ndps

(1/3 x Edps) + (2/3 x Ndps) = (X) Average DPS

Another talent we need to take in consideration is. The higher your critical strike chance the more likely you are to obtain Nature’s Grace. In 3.1 that will be coming out shortly Nature’s Grace is changed from a +20% haste increase instead of the .5second reduction time making it apply to all spells including dots sense haste decreases global CD. With this being the case depending on what your crit % is you can add 20% of that in haste.

CP = Crit Percentage

CP + (.20 x CP) = DPS

So if I have 20% crit it is really a 24% increase in DPS other than the original 20%. In this case, instead of crit gains a higher bonus when there is more added.

So now lets factor in the difference between haste and critical strike when a person has 2500 dps.

If we add 30% haste to 2500 dps that comes out to be 3250

If we add 30% crit to 2500 dps it also comes out be 3250

If you are talented for Eclipse you can factor that in also

(((0.006 x 30) x (30 + 30)) + (1- (0.006 x 30))) x 30 =  (X) Eclipse DPS

((0.18) x (60)) + ((1 – (0.18)) x 30 = (X) Eclipse DPS

10.8 + (0.82 x 30) =  (X) Eclipse DPS

10.8 + 24.6 = (35.4) Eclipse DPS

Now factor that with the potential eclipse up time to find an average.

(1/3 x 35.4) + (2/3 x 30) = (X) Average DPS

11.8 + 20 = 31.8% Average DPS

So now 30% crit is equivalent to 31.8% dps, which would change your 2500dps to 3295dps instead of 3250 dps.

Now factor in Nature’s Grace and its even more.

31.8 + (.20 x 31.8 ) = 38. 15%

Now your dps went from 3250 to 3453.75

30% haste = 30% haste after Eclipse and Nature’s Grace

30% crit = 38.15% after Eclipse and Nature’s Grace

After doing this I realize that this probably could have been worked with an easier formula, but this is evidence that crit does add more damage to haste. Please tell me if I made a mistake so I can fix it. I’m also working on how much of an increase adding haste would make to this, and how the amount of dps up time fits into this.
  :-\

[Feritas]

Personally:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0xGbuicoIdIVh0hZbxczb

That specc is nowhere near the best for a decent pve damage output, forget dreamstate, Moonglow, nature's reach. If you have enough spirit to benefit from imp moonkin then intensity is a waaay better mp5 talent. If nature's reach is a must, you gotta get a new tank, get CF and force of nature. Bramble gale winds, imp IS is also worth alot more.

[elfant]

Im so bad with math

[Khad]

Thing id like to see menitoned is this:

coming 3.1 we will have StarFall on 1min cd. Id does dmg but it also triggers NG proc from crits. Id imagine we all will be using StarFall as much as bossible cause of this latter reason if not for just for the awesome dmg up it is for us.. Now, StarFall also uses a ton of mana and this(plus the larger ammount of casts since NG proc is now for 2 casts) might make us reconsider our need of mana regen abilities.

Spec for mana regen/cost talents? Might be we wont, might be we really have to. But for all of you guys who lean on these threads for general direction on where to go, you might want to keep this in mind.

Weekend is comming. Time to shut the comp and get a bottel of redwine and enjoy the sun. /cheers

Khad

[elfant]

B rezing

[Spiritus]

Thing id like to see menitoned is this:

coming 3.1 we will have StarFall on 1min cd. Id does dmg but it also triggers NG proc from crits. Id imagine we all will be using StarFall as much as bossible cause of this latter reason if not for just for the awesome dmg up it is for us.. Now, StarFall also uses a ton of mana and this(plus the larger ammount of casts since NG proc is now for 2 casts) might make us reconsider our need of mana regen abilities.

Spec for mana regen/cost talents? Might be we wont, might be we really have to. But for all of you guys who lean on these threads for general direction on where to go, you might want to keep this in mind.

Weekend is comming. Time to shut the comp and get a bottel of redwine and enjoy the sun. /cheers

Khad

Imo I don't see this happening. If your not already proc'ing Nature's Grace at a pretty high rate, your stats are awry. Using Starfall (which, imo, is not a worthwhile Boss DPS increase AND for the 1m cooldown will require the glyph of starfall) to proc Nature's Grace is a fail reason for its use.

[Khad]

Well, now that we have few weeks of Ulduar behind us we know a little more. And honestly, Spiritus, i have to say that your wrong, StarFall kicks ass.

As mana is still not a issue, we can use StarFall as much as we like, and changing StarFire Glyph (the one that gives you 3 extra ticks for MF) vs 1min StarFall that deals a ton of dmg and gives me NG procs is not a "fail". My other two are IS and MF glyphs. My unbuffed crit in moonkin form is 25.o1%, and StarFall makes about 5% of my overall dmg on Boss fights. The biggest so far has been on Razor, where it for what ever od reason, did 8%. Generally speaking my MF dots and Starfall do about the same ammount of dmg.

Ill start with IFF then wrath (to get E&M, and the rare eclipse proc) then StarFall (we need to come up with a short version for the name of this btw ), put on dots and start spamming for Wrath. Starting like this i quite often have NG up for the first wraths. My Wrath under NG proc is at 1.1 sec cast time. As i am trying to trigger Lunar Eclipse, id like to have it as close the the 1sec margin as bossible.

One StarFall does bit over 10000dmg, one MF tick about 1050dmg. Both numbers are from Heroic dummy without any buffs, just Owlkin form. Thou i understand that the ammount of extra ticks per 1min period is far larger than the 3 that i meantioned, As our dmg goes up and we get to use the 2t8, the aplication of MF will go down douring the Eclipse... or get to a point where it shouldnt be refreshed douring it at all. Some feel that it allrdy is, and, i for example, dont refresh MF douring eclipse. My avarage non crit SF is around 5k which is about what MF dots will do with one cast. This further pushes the ods towards StarFall. My avarage use of MF douring a 1min period is 3 in some rare cases 4 casts, with 3 Starfall is winn, with 4 it leans towards the glyphed MF.

With my gear etc etc, SF glyph vs StarFall glyph are really close. The extra NG procs that i get with it makes me let go from to old MF extending one. As it is a close call, id imagine that there are quite a few moonkins whos values push them towards the old SF glyph, at least for a while.

Old days are over. StarFall is now a spell worth using.

Khad

Editet quite e bit, dont want to sound agressive and, the stubid critter that i am, used raid buffed data and test dummy values mixed. That warps the info imho, so now everything is from same source.

[Spiritus]

On Razorscale, its actually a DPS increase during phase 2 to be procing for Solar Eclipse. Regardless, My point was that using Starfall as a means of proc'ing NG is fail. I have no issues keeping NG up almost the entire fight. I was not debating its potential damage in Add-related boss fights. Yes, it will do damage, yes, it will proc NG quite a bit. If you go to the moonkinrepository.com you will find a thread with the issue of using Starfall as a means of DPS. Personally, I plan to have an AoE dual spec in order for boss' like Razorscale where I can best be applied as utility. In general though, it is bad theorycraft to look at Starfall the way it was presented in this thread. Ill try to pull numbers from the thread later if I can.