how exactly they are testing tank values w/o SD and with our nerf ?

[lostdruid]

I don't understand it. Ok they nerf us to be closer to other tanks but they are supposed to give something we lack and so far testing ulduar is prohibited for us.
It's another blow or what ? because atm there's no reason to prefer a druid tank when all other t7.5 tanks have similar stamina/resistances/avoidance/armor and a block value of 2k + ..

[SwimmerAndi]

Savage Defense is on the PTR now.

[arel00]

Two thousand block value? I really don't think so.

But even if that were the case. Currently, when raidbuffed my SD shield is over 1.8k damage. And is has an incredible uptime. To be honest, every other druid I talked with that has been on the PTR is very happy with Savage Defense. Not only it gives us more stats to scale on, but it also very well makes up for the armor loss. It does on bosses, which is the real cutting edge, and we're testing how it performs on AoE, where the greater doubts aare.

Ulduar testing is *not* prohibited to us. We went there and tasted the nerfs before we even got SD, and people still were fine to raid with druid. Now SD has been implemented on the PTR for a week. There is nothing that prevents us from fully testing it.

Either you need to update your (very) old news, or you need to explain yourself better.

[Raptorg]

Where is this block value you speak of? I can't find it.

Do I need to wear a shield?

[Deleted]

I dont think its all that bad as we feared - and there is certainly no reason to flip before we have the final numbers. I went on the PTR yesterday, and i was sad to find myself with less armor and hp. I cried a little bit inside.

Then i went to test Savage Defense, and it turned out alright. Someone else said he soloed Thrym, so i tried doing that aswell. I got him to 50% before i died, but i didn't really have everything set up - i think it took him 4-5 minutes to kill me and i used two barkskins in that time, and such :P

The Thrym test shows that Savage Defense is insanely powerfull against slow hitting mobs, as we know. I dont think there was more than a few of his attacks that landed, that wasn't partly absorbed by SD. With our dodge chance, SD will usually stick for a while before we are hit.

The problem in the end, ofcourse, is fast hitting mobs and aoe packs. I dont think the fast hitting mobs and bosses will be much of a problem - apart from Patchwerk, we haven't really seen anything else yet. With a bit of luck, we will have SD up all the time on Patchwerk-like bosses anyways, and even if we don't, its probably alright: There is a huge difference between me taking hatefulls and my warrior friend taking hatefulls.

I still worry about AoE packs. But maybe its not all that bad. Lets just say we have 10 mobs, that hit for 5.000 each. I had 69% (rounded up) phys reduction on live, and 64% on PTR. Including armor and POTP, the mobs hit me for:

69%: 5.000 * 0,31 * 0,88 = 1364
64%: 5.000 * 0,36 * 0,88 = 1584

I will do an attack (one auto attack and one GCD) every second on averege. I have ~40% crit raidbuffed i believe, and with 10 targets for swipe, i *will* get a shield every 1,5 seconds, and then half-ish the time i maul. Lets disregard maul.

That means that i will probably have SD up everytime the mobs swing at me (an aoe pack probably doesn't have less than a 1,5 sec attack speed per mob). However, since i have dodge, we shouldn't count on all 10 to attack me. Lets assume 40% dodge:

69%: 6 mobs hits me for 1364 each = 8184 damage
64%: 6 mobs hits me for 1584 each = 9504 damage
I think its fair to assume at least 6k AP in bear, in a raid. That almost nullifies one of the attacks. A simple way to look at this would to say that since SD absorbs one attack, i have 5 mobs hitting me for 1584 (for a total of 7920), which is *less* than what i take on live.

So the numbers are:

69%: 6 mobs hits me for 1364 each = 8184 damage
64%: 6 mobs hits me for 1584 each - 1500 SD = 7920 damage
Damage reduction: 264 damage.

That makes SD look like a better alternative than armor. Ofcourse, some mobs might hit harder, and you may have bad luck with dodging, but that applies to our current state aswell:

69%: 9 mobs hits me for 1364 each = 12.276 damage
64%: 9 mobs hits me for 1584 each - 1500 SD = 12756 damage

We only 480 damage more in a case where we only dodge one of the 10 mobs.

It becomes a problem if the mobs hit us for more, ofcourse. If they have a swing for 10.000 damage, the calculations would look like:

69%: 10.000 * 0,31 * 0,88 = 2728
64%: 10.000 * 0,36 * 0,88 = 3168

69%: 6 mobs: 16368 damage. 9 mobs: 24.552 damage
64%: 6 mobs: 17508 damage. 9 mobs: 27.012 damage

I dont know what to expect from Ulduar in terms of AoE pack's damage. But i dont think it looks all that bad.

Sorry for my rambling.

[arel00]

Not rambling at all.

All the opposite. You just redid the math that many of us used when discussing SD before its addition to the PTR.
And the results are similar. That is, to quote someone wiser than me, a proof that "armor counts much less than you'd think on AoE, and block mechanics count much, much more".

Actually, we've noticed also that SD actually *can* block more than one attack, guaranteed that they land at the same time. The SD shield isn't dispersed server side on the attack table roll, it's canceled after the hit has gone thorugh and the damage has been calculated. In the (very) unlikely case that those 10 mobs swing at you with exactly the same timer, SD could virtually absorb all of their hits at once. That is to say, in reality it's even better than what math would suggest, even if the chance of such things is small per se, there is a good chance that on a 10 mobs pack 2 of them will swing together.

Sidenote - we were wondering about whether there would be a shield priority. From what I tested on PTR, it works like this:
- Essence of Gossamer proc stacks additively with the SD shield. It simply adds up to the absorbed damage.
- PW:Shield is prioritized *after* SD. On this matter, SD is completely like block, and it's the first thing coming into place. PW:Shield only absorbs the post-block damage, thus if you completely negate an attack through SD, the priest shield won't be affected, and will keep its remaining damage intact.

The combat mechanic seems to be like this:
1. attack table roll, determining hit, miss or dodge
2. damage mitigation through armor
3. damage mitigation through block mechanics, stacked up together - SD and EoG fall in this category
4. damage mitigation through absorbtion mechanics, like PW:Shield
5. final damage

Edited to say: don't get me wrong, this is for us druids. For warriors and paladins block is part of the combat roll table, its chance is determined on step 1, and its effective absorbtion on step 3.

Another sidenote: SD does activate on Sartharion when he's shielded by the Shadron acolyte. Tested. The reason is quite simple. Sartharion's shield count as a limitless damage absorbtion (step 4), thus all attacks are considered soaked, but not missed. You will roll on the table, and you will get a crit normally.
It doesn't absorb his devastating breath, but God knows if I'd like 1.8k shield on me for the following melee hit.

[Stormrage]

Then i went to test Savage Defense, and it turned out alright. Someone else said he soloed Thrym, so i tried doing that aswell. I got him to 50% before i died, but i didn't really have everything set up - i think it took him 4-5 minutes to kill me and i used two barkskins in that time, and such :P

The Thrym test shows that Savage Defense is insanely powerfull against slow hitting mobs, as we know. I dont think there was more than a few of his attacks that landed, that wasn't partly absorbed by SD. With our dodge chance, SD will usually stick for a while before we are hit.

Thyrm was a joke >.> I just soloed him on the ptr, with just normal rotations, and cooldowns. I did use a pot because my room mate came in and asked me what I was doing and i wasn't doing anything but auto attack.

Honestly savage defense is great, esp with primal gore. We have 3 ways to trigger a shield, lacerate crits, auto attack crits, and GCD's.

[Deleted]

arel00 > So i am correct to think that our SD is calculated in AFTER armor mitigation and POTP? Phew.

I dont think its safe to add in the chance of two mobs hitting at the same time - it wont happen that often, and it may be fixed anyways.

In the cases where we do have some 10 mobs that hits for 10.000 pre mitigation, it still seems to be a slight nerf. Not that we probably didn't need that, but its still hard to give up on something you're used to How realistic is it to expect such hits in Ulduar and beyond? Then again, i do my calculations from my own stats, and as i only really do 10 mans, my stats are lower than those of a 25 man tank.

Sartharion is sort of a double edged sword: You want to have barrier up for the melee swings, but you will take damage whenever you attack anyways. On live, as we are trying to do 2D Sarth (yes, we havent gotten that down yet ), i stop attacking as Vesperon's acolyte spawns, but now i have to decide which it should be. Not that we will worry too much about Sartharion once Ulduar comes out, but still...

Stormrage > No, you have two ways of triggering your barrier: Auto attacks, and GCD's. Lacerate is a GCD ability. The dot from lacerate doens't proc SD if it crits.

[Gilthoniel]

Dont worry, savage defence is good ability.

[Ugrana]

I dont think its safe to add in the chance of two mobs hitting at the same time - it wont happen that often, and it may be fixed anyways.

Warrior spell reflect has been like this for quite some time, i dont expect them to change SD unless they fix spell reflect, and probably a few other abilities.

[Deleted]

Id rather calculate it without counting for double hits, and then take the bonus as it is: A bonus

[arel00]

Ehm yes, I dind't count that chance into my math. Just saying that the real thing comes with this kind of hidden bonus.

And you're correct: SD applies after Armor and PotP. It absorbs only the effective, post-soak damage.

[baseball]

It's hard for d-bags like myself not to be smug at this research, and want to request the banhammer to every poster of a sky is falling post for the past month.

Kalon over at WoW Think Tank is mentioning that latency is still heavily affecting SD's usefulness; is this still the case or has that largely been resolved?

[getefix]

I wouldn't think it would be worth spending time on. If you have to much latency to attack, then you have too much latency to taunt or move, and therefore shouldn't be tanking. Look for "Decrease Latency" threads, keep your computer maintained and moderately up-to-date, and don't raid on dial-up

Sry for the rage, "I lagged" is really starting to piss me off during Heigan and Thaddius. I need a new guild.

[Deleted]

Sry for the rage, "I lagged" is really starting to piss me off during Heigan and Thaddius. I need a new guild.

I feel you man - i am the GM and RL of our little kindergarden, and i am probably the only one that bothered looking up tactics before our Naxx run all that time ago - and dispite my many explanations, we still have people saying "Oh oh, its so hard, i hate this fight", and people are STILL dying. I went so far, in regards to tactics, to add a DKP penalty for dying on Malygos - i should probably do the same on Heigan.

Oh, i also need to get "Failbot" - i did a 25 man run with an old guild of mine the other day, and it was fun to see it report those that crossed charges on Thaddius:

"Qieth fails at left and right"

[baseball]

Failbot is AWESOME.

ArthaaasDK fails at frogger (2)
LegolasX fails at lava waves (7)

If you have to much latency to attack, then you have too much latency to taunt or move, and therefore shouldn't be tanking.

This wasn't my intent -- I'll find kalon's write up and quote it:

I'd often see a SD proc happen a second or so after actually critting a mob - even after the LotP proc that would trigger. In my testing above, I also came across parts where the log said I'd gain SD but the shield would not absorb anything. I think this is due to it breaking when facing significant amounts of mobs

Just wondering if that delay has been resolved. Seems like more of a code issue than an actual latency issue, though.

[lostdruid]

ok sorry i didn't noticed it was in trainers it went unnoticed i think with all the ulduar testing. And I felt very neglected once more in comparison to other tanks.
with ~5k ap self buffed i absorb about ~1.2-1.4kdmg and demo helps reduce that damage also (i suppose mongoose/idol was procced also).
my regular gear has 4.6ap which isn't much of a difference in absorb over the hp/dodge loss.

in slow hit mobs and elites it does miracles, in aoe/magical packs (elites or not) that hit hard and /or fast it lacking.
Though I did manage to solo in heroic mgt Priestess Delrisa and her pets.

Overall with our current gear i wont call it a nerf neither a buff we certainly needed an absorb mechanic, those plate parry and block tanks are just sick.
I think we may need start building ap gear though I don't know if it's possible to exceed (let's say)7k ap self buff and if it will have a real use somewhere.

And maybe the "double blocks" was a bug I didnt notice in cl SD to stay after 1 hit (no matter the dmg) but it was procced all the time.

[getefix]

I feel you man - i am the GM and RL of our little kindergarden, and i am probably the only one that bothered looking up tactics before our Naxx run all that time ago - and dispite my many explanations, we still have people saying "Oh oh, its so hard, i hate this fight", and people are STILL dying. I went so far, in regards to tactics, to add a DKP penalty for dying on Malygos - i should probably do the same on Heigan.

Oh, i also need to get "Failbot" - i did a 25 man run with an old guild of mine the other day, and it was fun to see it report those that crossed charges on Thaddius:

"Qieth fails at left and right"

I have Failbot, it's great. People can no longer cry that someone else killed them when they're standing in the middle of a group on Thaddius. It also tells us who is incapable of seeing Void Zones on KT.

It also allows me to say "Until you see '[Raid]Getefix: Getefix fails at left and right', I will continue running through Thaddius' legs".

'Who screwed up?' should never go unanswered, Failbot helps with that

[Deleted]

Ah, it was great running with Failbot last night, for the first time.

We we're able to identify why we still havent gotten Shocking from Thaddius - two people failed right off the bat, with "Sorry, i thought we were going the other way around" (dispite that we've done it so many times), but unfortunately when the fight was over, a stunning five people had crossed charges with others. Ugh, its going to be a while :P

[ReD-EyeD]

I will continue running through Thaddius' legs.

Sorry for offtopic, but why not? It is the shortest way between A and B spots. Just why not? ;D