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  1. #41

    Re: Combat Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Nemz0r
    Anyone else thrilled to see http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...h/03_21_18.jpg ? A 1.4 sword, zomg! <3
    I'd rather have a ilevel 232 1.5 speed.

  2. #42

    Re: Combat Compendium

    My guild mate who is also rogue as me, has few questions about enchant on gloves. He plays combat and sometimes Muti/HaT. He is an engineer and he can make an enchant 340 haster for 10 sec on his gloves. It can be activated every 2 minutes. He doesnt know what to chose : crusher or engi enchant. I beg for reilabe replies. Thank you

  3. #43

    Re: Combat Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Kizior
    My guild mate who is also rogue as me, has few questions about enchant on gloves. He plays combat and sometimes Muti/HaT. He is an engineer and he can make an enchant 340 haster for 10 sec on his gloves. It can be activated every 2 minutes. He doesnt know what to chose : crusher or engi enchant. I beg for reilabe replies. Thank you
    Crusher. (Unless he only has fights of about 1min length.)

    As always, to be on the safe side, just spreadsheet it.
    (BTW: 10sec, 2min CD = 1/12th uptime ---> effect = 340/12 which is about 28,3 hasterating. [if used on CD ofc] Now compare that to Crusher, keep the Equivalent Points in mind, and there you have it.)
    It's astonishing how confused people get when a sentence does not end as they potato.

  4. #44

    Re: Combat Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Kizior
    He is an engineer and he can make an enchant 340 haster for 10 sec on his gloves. It can be activated every 2 minutes.
    The tooltip for hyperspeed accelerators is currently incorrect, as the CD is actually 1 min.

  5. #45

    Re: Combat Compendium

    Thanks for that maths Voij. :>

    Quote Originally Posted by Auchinfail
    The tooltip for hyperspeed accelerators is currently incorrect, as the CD is actually 1 min.
    If that's true, Hyperspeed Accelerators is OP in comparison to Crusher. O.o EQ Point for Haste is 1.4 and it gives 56.6 Haste Rat so it gives 80 EQ Points. Crusher gives only 44.
    Thanks for advices. :>

  6. #46

    Re: Combat Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Kizior
    If that's true, Hyperspeed Accelerators is OP in comparison to Crusher. O.o
    Well its true alright. The CD is indeed 1 min. Its a cheap chant, or 'tinker', but it still seems like Crusher has been a deeps improvement over the accelerators, imo. Im terribad w/ spreadsheets tho.

    Let us know what you find, plz.

  7. #47

    Re: Combat Compendium

    Hi there, I have been reading alot about rogue and how to dps. Both here and on EJ, and I have tried everything mentioned as good. And I get my rotations down to a sensible degree, I dont ace them, but i do get the rotations going better then most, im certain of that.

    Anyways

    There are really two playstyles talked about (lets ignore HAT since its based on luck and your group, not based on your skill alone, and cant be measured or results be recreated).

    There is mutilate, and there is combat. Both relying heavily on SnD+rupture and then a evi/envenom finisher.

    The thing I just dont get, is that whenever i try combat dagger speccs, running SnD and doing imp eviscerates (deadly offhand and wound mainhand). I always get much better results, then both muti or the usual combat speccs.

    Makes me wonder if the math freaks out here, really have tried out running a backstab specc and doing eviscerate and SnD finishers. For me the result vary alot, and heavily towards the backstab build. I have used the excel´s out there, and they all say it wouldnt work, but excel is one thing, actual gameplay is another.

    Sure the specc can be annoying and cumbersome, but those insane eviscerates and the insane burst dmg from AR backstab sprees with trinkets, is just insane.

    So basicly, what im wondering. Have anyone (I direct this mostly to the ones who creates these topics and creating the excel files to dig up the absolutely best DPS), actually tried such a specc with that way of playing? Or did you just look at the excel file and go, naah, that wont work.

    I ran something along the line of this:

    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...0&version=9733

    http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...isper&n=Aweryn

    Atm im muti pvp specced, and generally i run LPC as offhand for the increased potency proccs.

    Anyhow, I am just wondering. Because either I am doing something terribly wrong (and since i have been trying ALOT, and I dont mess up the rotations), I hope I aint. But to me it just seems like excel can be one thing, and ingame another.

    (or possibly is it because of that my gear is total crap, and normal combat or mutilate builds scales so much better then a combat-backstab specc?)

  8. #48
    Brewmaster
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    Re: Combat Compendium

    What weapons are you using for combat (non dagger) ? it might be that your daggers are significantly higher than your other weapons. Epic daggers vs blue swords might yeild a better result. If you arent producing the dps as mut i would say its your rotation tho. If you are new to roguery i'd reccomending sticking to combat as its simpler and more forgiving while you learn to play. That said i went combat daggers very early as my first weapon drop in naxx was a dagger and it does seem to produce reasonable dps but fists or sword is generally higher. In your case looking at your armory i'd say your daggers are simply higher item level than your other combat weapons which is giving you the increase you are seeing.

  9. #49

    Re: Combat Compendium

    No I haven't tried it. But i did play Combat Daggers back in BC until I started T5 content, not that it helps in anyway to lend weight much weight to what I'm about to say, but I do have some knowledge of it.

    I did just spreadsheet your build with my current gear but with SR/WD as weapons. To keep SnD up 100% i needed to do 5s/3e cycle, which is depressing. And yes, the dps number was less than my combat fist/dagger spec.

    But, It looks like a much easier spec to play, Your combo point generation is smooth (no ss glyph or Ruthlessness), and therefore you can stick with your rotation very easily. I know my current rotation sometimes goes to hell, especially in VoA (Is his hit box really that small???). So I think the ease of the rotation will help your dps.

    So, If you perform better with your backstab/imp evis build then you should probably stick with it. But I would speculate that you're failing to keep your rupture uptime high.

    Also, I imagine your spec would be better on trash. When no one uses rupture but use evis as the finisher, at least when FoK spamming is no longer worth it. Most notable i can think of the groups of trash in OS, the one with the 2 big guy only. I think your spec would be better.

    But on a single boss, when you're maximizing rupture uptime and your rotation doesn't fall, i think the standard CQC fist/dagger spec would outperform.

    But you did make me think I might give Combat Daggers a whirl one week....wait, I forgot about those annyoying "Must be behind Target" messages...nvm. : P

  10. #50

    Re: Combat Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Melkior
    The thing I just dont get, is that whenever i try combat dagger speccs, running SnD and doing imp eviscerates (deadly offhand and wound mainhand). I always get much better results, then both muti or the usual combat speccs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Melkior
    Sure the specc can be annoying and cumbersome, but those insane eviscerates and the insane burst dmg from AR backstab sprees with trinkets, is just insane.
    This.
    A short time fight would result in huge difference.

    CQC/Sword rogues sometimes suffer from Energy cap problem when AR is on, especially when haste effects are all stacked at the same time. Thus combat dagger is potential to do more burst damage in short period.

    The other possible issue may be the trinkets. Some trinkets, like mirror of truth, are linked to crit. The difference may be neglected since most CQC rogues can reach 40%, and someones even 50% crit with full raid buffs, but when you have only 20% crit as Combat sword, the extra 30% crit means a lot.



  11. #51

    Re: Combat Compendium

    Good post, well done.

  12. #52

    Re: Combat Compendium

    My mainhand is either:

    LPC
    Crimson Steel
    Knife of Incision

    Offhand is either:

    LPC
    Grasscutter (when I tried out 4/5 sword spec)

    All of them enchanted with 50 atk pwr.

    When we talk about short fights here, I always run 3 or 5 minute dummy dps test, or compare to what I got at patchwerk or the likes. And I play in a rather small guild, so it wasnt always the same players that came to naxx, but pretty much.

    Anyhow, I just like to try new things. And to me this seem like the better deal, tho im not sure I ran a 5s/3e build, I think it was possible to have 4s/4e (even at dummy tries). It would have been nice if someone with close to best-in-slot and who really can play a rogue tried it, just for the kicks of it.

    And abour rupture uptimes and such, I dont have specific numbers atm since it was a while ago I did the tests. But I do however know that I do run a pretty decent rotation, its good enough to make me belive that it isnt where the problem lies.

  13. #53

    Re: Combat Compendium

    If you wanna use daggers use Mutilate for now.

  14. #54

    Re: Combat Compendium

    I just specced mutilate and had a go at a target dummy (heroic boss one).

    2052dps 4minute fight
    92% uptime of rupture
    91% uptime deadly poison
    SnD 100%
    H4B 100%

    Dmg done %
    Attack 29.6%
    IP 20%
    Mutilate 16.7%
    Rupture 12.6%
    DP 12.1%
    Envenom 9%

    92% uptime on Rupture is bad? 8% out of 12.6% dmg isnt a whole lot:

    4 minutes = 240seconds
    240 seconds * 2052 = 492480
    492480 * 0,126 = 62052,48
    62052,48 * 0,08 = 4964,1984

    So I lost 5k dmg on a 4minute fight, thats what 20dps?

    Given that these numbers will go up in raid, when I get poison hit cap. Maybe turning my AP/AGI gems into Exp might give something. But im sitll not convinced that muti is the way to go for me, with my gear.

    But as I said, would be really cool if someone with better skills and better gear could try out a combat dagger build. Id just like to see what someone who actually can play can do with it. (Im not being ironic btw, im not the best rogue in the world. I dont suck, but Im by far not the best.)

  15. #55

    Re: Combat Compendium

    It's kinda simple to see where u (your tests) fails.
    First of all, you are making your tests unbuffed and on a dummy, sure it can give you some advices on how you are good at keeping up the rotation, but you cant compare dps just looking on a dummy fight.
    Then we can add:
    1 -> you are not poison hit capped, that means mut will suffer MUCH more then a combat dagger spec (32% of your total damage is done by poisons, and you may miss some dp application aswell lowering your envenom damage), with misery or IFF you will gain some dps.
    2 -> Rogue scales badly, so without buffs all your tests are screwed.

    Said that, combat dagger is a good spec, and with your current gear (pretty poor and completely crap for mut) it's possible that you outdps every other spec with it.
    Other good rogues tested it with best in slot gear and found out that combat dagger is actually below mut - fist/sword combat builds, it's viable, but still below.

    I would love to show you some recount myself, but i dont have a combat gear on par with the mutilate one (almost best in slot).

  16. #56

    Re: Combat Compendium

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but combat rotations have the distant 3rd finisher as envenom not evis...? For those of you who know what Im talking about please respond.

    Now there is the glyph too as well to think about (basically your envenom DOESN"T consume your DPoison), which I think isn't as great as some other glyphs as far as taking one of your 3 major spots since from what I've seen on PTR your deadly already stacks pretty fast with great gear.

    I guess with T8 2 piece bonus your rupture if speccd in Serrated Blades would come close to DP dmg, but I doubt it, you'd definatly need a Feral in the raid.

  17. #57

    Re: Combat Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Kodj
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but combat rotations have the distant 3rd finisher as envenom not evis...? For those of you who know what Im talking about please respond.
    Combat build 3rd finisher should be eviscerate. Most combat builds / gear do best with double wound poison. Even if combat went WP/DP they would still use Eviscerate. If we used envenom you couldn't get the DP stacks back up fast enough to make the envenoms worth it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kodj
    Now there is the glyph too as well to think about (basically your envenom DOESN"T consume your DPoison), which I think isn't as great as some other glyphs as far as taking one of your 3 major spots since from what I've seen on PTR your deadly already stacks pretty fast with great gear.
    That glyphs is gone. They changed master poisoner and took the glyph away.


  18. #58

    Re: Combat Compendium

    Just thinking .....

    I think it would be great to add in the
    some of the best Addons and some time saving macros

    Eg: To help me see a little better on SnD and Rupture time remaing before i need to refresh them. I use an Addon called Slicer (from Curse) is has 2 basic looking bars
    1 for SnD and 1 for Rupture it counts the time remaing on the above
    It works for me (if you have something better please share and explain why)


    I have a nice macro i'm using for Tott - when i use it it automatically casts Tott
    on whoever i set focus to EG: Tanks



    If you have anything to add otherwise please share as this is a very informative thread


    Thanx


  19. #59

    Re: Combat Compendium

    I am really confused : i played mutilate since the LK came out and i got CG and hailstorm last week, threw 2 serkers on them, and started raiding as combat.
    So my problem is that i usually did like 5.3-5.5k dps on patchwerk with mutilate. With these 2 eps, and a cycle of 3S/5R/5E i`m doing under 4.5k. Now i`m just wondering, what the heck am i doing wrong? Or is it the shiv spec that is all over combat these days? But then again if it`s shiv spec, why would i glyph and spec for sinister strike?

    Some tips might help, cause i`m really really confused. Like what spec to use, what glyphs to use and what cycle should i do. Thanks in advance.
    Rogues don't do buffs or other group things. If you want a hug ask the Paladin.

  20. #60

    Re: Combat Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Nudle
    I am really confused : i played mutilate since the LK came out and i got CG and hailstorm last week, threw 2 serkers on them, and started raiding as combat.
    So my problem is that i usually did like 5.3-5.5k dps on patchwerk with mutilate. With these 2 eps, and a cycle of 3S/5R/5E i`m doing under 4.5k. Now i`m just wondering, what the heck am i doing wrong? Or is it the shiv spec that is all over combat these days? But then again if it`s shiv spec, why would i glyph and spec for sinister strike?

    Some tips might help, cause i`m really really confused. Like what spec to use, what glyphs to use and what cycle should i do. Thanks in advance.
    15/51/5, 5/5 CQC 4/5 Sword-Spec, SS-Glyph, SnD-Glyph, Rupture-Glyph.

    Don't use AR during Bloodlust/Heroism/BF, as you might get energy-capped that way.

    SnD>Rupture>Evis, SnD has to have a 100% uptime, Rupture should be as close to 100% as possible and you might use Evis when you have the CP.

    NEVER let SnD drop, try to renew it with just a few seconds left but most importantly just don't let it drop. (in BC 1 second without SnD was equal to renewing it with 6 seconds left.)

    Back to the Rotation/Priorities:
    if you have 5 CP and 12 seconds or more left on SnD, use Rupture. (You'll have to try out the very exact values yourself, i sometimes am able to do a 4-5point SnD even though i did Rupture when 8-9 seconds on SnD were left, but the 12 second-rule is about the most accurate.)
    if you have 5 CP and 12 seconds or more left on SnD and about 4-5 seconds left on Rupture, pool energy and then use Rupture.
    if you have 5 CP and 12 seconds or more left on SnD and about 8-20 seconds left on Rupture, use Eviscerate.

    That's about how you should play Combat, i'm usually Mutilate so i'm not absolutely sure whether those numbers are really accurate, but i'm doing quite well with them.
    I wrote that somewhere before, so just quoted it for you.
    It's astonishing how confused people get when a sentence does not end as they potato.

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