won't soc become useless?

[Daez]

it' logical that they will remove the recall or seal of marty will become useless + they will buff jotw thos makes me think that i'm juste that the recoil will disappear from sob /som

The problem with this statement is you ASSUME that Blizzard is logical. Blizzard has never been logical before, so why do you think they would be logical in this case.

[Deathleech]

Yes, Seal of Command is SIGNIFICANTLY less damage than Seal of Blood/Martyr. Even with SA gone SoB/M is still going to be the seal of choice despite the pointless and completely non-beneficial recoil. SoC really isn't an option to use despite SA being gone because ret dmg is already low and using SoC will just make it that much lower.

This is why a lot of people think SoB/M recoil will be removed. It offers no benefits with SA gone but we still need to use the seal to do the most dmg (which is still much lower than other hybrids at the present moment). Either that or they will buff or change SoC to make it more appealing.

Either way there is no point in having a seal that hurts yourself when SA is gone and when using it you are STILL doing less dmg than other hybrids, that makes paladins nothing but a liability.

[Kairu]

Holy already doesn't really have mana issues, and they haven't really announced any new changes to affect that other than the SA one. Retribution needed SA more than protection in many cases and they gave protection unlimited free mana anyways. Warriors, Rogues and even Hunters have unlimited free resource (although the hunter takes a dps loss to get it). There is absolutely no reason they need to worry about SA making a retribution paladin to powerful. This change is a joke. Mana in games is a joke anyways. No one really wants to play a class that is going to be suffering from loss of mana. Mana regeneration in Wrath was just fine. Personally, after 3.1 we will probably lose about 1/3 of healers in disgust as they try to balance raid content by nerfing their mana pools instead of making challenging content and about 1/2 of tanks as they nerf DKs so badly they make druids look good and then nerf druids.

They did it due to the randomness of the mana intake. Some fights you're dry on mana, some fights you're filled up due to raid damage, they want to make it less of a random factor, and they said they will buff JotW to make up for the SA removal.

[Daez]

Whatever happened to us using SoB because its the best DPS hands-down? Last I knew, the SA mana return from it was kind of a side benefit to using it.. its pretty weird that as soon as they pull SA, that seems to have reversed.

You completely misunderstand the post.

Lets look at some givens...

Everyone uses seal of martyr/blood because it does better damage.
In pvp the recoil can be an issue in a close fight because you help your enemy kill you.
The reason for the recoil is because it allowed for better regeneration through SA is the theory.
People believe that Blizzard will do the rational thing and remove the recoil from M/B since they screwed over retribution paladins by not letting them have SA.

That being said, Blizzard is still not rational and they will most likely keep M/B exactly how it is and people will still use it because its better than SoC. My ret builds past level 64 didn't even include SoC in the spec.

[SFJake]

So, no recoil damage in SoB... what the hell would be the point of SoC?

[Daez]

bye seal of wristcutting, hello glyphed SoR...
no idea what i will use in pvp.. depend on the test i will doyike get better heals :/

So incredibly true. As a holy paladin I have had second heals on Loatheb (the priest was on top and I was above two druids). The entire group stayed capped the entire fight. I just spammed holy light (with glyph) twice in the healing window and kept judgment of light up the whole time. This fight can easily be healed by any healer and people can stay capped while doing it.

[Jerazznor]

"become" ?

QFT. SoC is useless right now.

[rabbimojo]

...The reason for the recoil is because it allowed for better regeneration through SA is the theory...

Y'know.. I don't actually remember that being -why- the recoil is on there. I don't remember it being anything other than a 'flavor' aspect. That it -did- increase mana via SA was always billed as a nice side effect.

The most hilarious thing EVER is that while SA was moved deep into the protection tree, the Glpyh of SoB/SoM now grants more mana from SA. Apparently, no one ever told Blizzard about common sense and they don't play their own game. I'm confused rather they want me to try killing myself with my own seal while tanking or have an unusable glyph as ret...

That isn't "the most hilarious thing EVER" by any stretch of the imagination. I find it more hilarious, for example, that you think the Blizz design/development team is small enough to stay fully coordinated on an app this size, with PTR churning as much as it does.

As has been said before, the teams at Blizz are empowered to make their own decisions, not everything is handed down on stone tablets from on high. The people implementing glyphs are not likely the same guys who implemented the SA removal. If they are the same people, then likely they just let it go out because it doesn't matter. It will get fixed.

You ret pallies are such drama queens, I swear.

[iktankniet]

You ret pallies are such drama queens, I swear.

like they say: the bad players say ret is OP. the bad ret say the class needs massive buffs

[Wizzleteats]

You ret pallies are such drama queens, I swear.

We have to be that way sometimes, it gives the forum troll their sustenance. Face it, our complaints are like crack for the forum trolls.

...hell, you should be thanking us.

[PalliesThrowStuff]

I think most of you Ret Paladins are shamefully forgetting your roots.

SoB does self damage, not JUST TO FUEL YOUR MANA, but it was originally designed for A: Flavor and B: To act as a side effect for doing more damage than ANY OTHER SEAL.

Now, you actually have to make a call between Command and Martyr/Blood, because the self damage is no longer win/win.

I hope they boost SoB's recoil to 100% of seal and judgement damage, and increase Ret's DPS using Righteousness, Command, and Vengeance so that using SoB is our "All out" DPS tool, but far too unsafe for regular usage.

[Bewbslól]

I think most of you Ret Paladins are shamefully forgetting your roots.

SoB does self damage, not JUST TO FUEL YOUR MANA, but it was originally designed for A: Flavor and B: To act as a side effect for doing more damage than ANY OTHER SEAL.

Now, you actually have to make a call between Command and Martyr/Blood, because the self damage is no longer win/win.

I hope they boost SoB's recoil to 100% of seal and judgement damage, and increase Ret's DPS using Righteousness, Command, and Vengeance so that using SoB is our "All out" DPS tool, but far too unsafe for regular usage.

Most retarded idea ever. Go lvl ur DK pretty please.

[IronRabbit]

I think most of you Ret Paladins are shamefully forgetting your roots.

SoB does self damage, not JUST TO FUEL YOUR MANA, but it was originally designed for A: Flavor and B: To act as a side effect for doing more damage than ANY OTHER SEAL.

Now, you actually have to make a call between Command and Martyr/Blood, because the self damage is no longer win/win.

I hope they boost SoB's recoil to 100% of seal and judgement damage, and increase Ret's DPS using Righteousness, Command, and Vengeance so that using SoB is our "All out" DPS tool, but far too unsafe for regular usage.

It is also the highest damage seal. If you do not use it, your damage is just not competitive, even a little bit. As a DPS class, we are judged by how much DPS we do. The days of certain classes bringing essential buffs that the raid just had to have are gone. And if you don't pull your weight, you're gone too. Pray tell, what other choice do we have?

[Deathleech]

It doesn't really matter what SoB/M was originally intended to do because WoW is a much different game than it was back in TBC. Having the recoil on Blood/Martry before was at least somewhat tolerable since it helped us gain mana back through Spiritual Attunement. Not so anymore.

We are the ONLY DPS class that needs to hurt ourselves just to do MEDIOCRE damage (read: currently less than other hybrids on the PTR). Using Seal of Command or Righteousness in PVE in their current state just isn't an option. I tried using Command on a Maly attempt and was 12th on the dmg meters. I usually am in the top 5. That is a HUGE difference. No one is going to want to take a ret paladin who is not only taking loads of damage when mana is already tight, but on top of that doing piss poor DPS. Our current damage should be boosted and we shouldn't have to hurt ourselves at all to do it, just like other hybrids.

What Blizzard needs to do is either buff the dmg on Seal of Command or Righteousness so they are viable dmg once more. Make the dmg you put out while using them more in line with what SoB/M currently does. Perhaps then they could up the dmg on Seal of B/M so it does a lot more but can only be used in certain situations. With limited mana of healers and AoE dmg you can only use it at certain times or on certain fights or you risk killing yourself/running the healers dry.

[Derlan]

I tried using Command on a Maly attempt and was 12th on the dmg meters. I usually am in the top 5. That is a HUGE difference.

Not to nitpick, but that isnt necessarily true, i mean if 5th through 15th dps are all within a few hundred or even less of each other which has happened in a number of raids ive been in, a fairly small decrease in dps can bump you way down in the meter rankings.

[Tmaytron]

I think Blizz should change the SoM/B glyph to remove its recoil damage or at least reduce the damage you take in.

[Alenko]

I think Blizz should change the SoM/B glyph to remove its recoil damage or at least reduce the damage you take in.

better idea, increase dmg out put and increase the "recoil" dmg by like 10%

[ShinKosh]

I think Blizz should change the SoM/B glyph to remove its recoil damage or at least reduce the damage you take in.

Why should Ret need a glyph to be viable?

[Anduril]

^ holy already needs a glyph to be a viable healer.

I would not be surprised if blizzard took the easy way out with Ret as well. Why fix a flawed talent and skill structure, when you can just throw the Glyph band aid on it and call it done.

Blizzard's new design flow is lazy at best, and garbage at worst.

[ShinKosh]

Fair point, I did forget about the Holy Joes.

Anyways from the way its looking atm, the new DPS seal is gonna be SoR.

I will try to contain my excitment for the new patch.