Seal of Blood/Martyr Go Bye Bye?

[iktankniet]

i dont really get what you mean, but 16-17k raid buffed judgements sounds fishy to me, you can check my armory(http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...27dan&n=Vehlia), i guess i can tell you that way over 13k wont really happen other than gimmickfights where you get some serious +damage.

but whats with the pvpburst? in arena for example judgement of blood crits in the range of 3-6k, depending on gear of the oponents and your personal arenasetup id say.

im confused here dude!

im judging an average of 10k usually and there are 15k judgements in it. not much, but ive seen it on different bosses. hitting thaddius with 30k dmg isnt impossible either. so yeah, plz buff me 15% of 15k dmg. its gonna be 18k in ulduar gear.

ohw and SoR still sucks ass. the seal cant crit which is a serious difference in dps. not to mention scaling isnt as good (afaik)
think its ment to increase dmg that holy can do

[Thaurr]

I love the smell paladin-tears in the morning. Paladins have received a lot of buffs and just the SA removal will not be the end of the world. You got 15% more damage on CS and EX and 3% more overall crit. However you just ignore that part and QQ about a minor thing that affects mana regen, use Divine Plea on every CD and you'll be fine.

[greenmasheen]

The state of Ret is in horrible shape with the removal of SA they will need to up JoW a large amount I was oom so fast on Hodir tonight.

if you have to rely on spiritual attunement for mana as a ret using SoB, then you are just a bad player.

[belfpala]

if you have to rely on spiritual attunement for mana as a ret using SoB, then you are just a bad player.

You juxtapose three concepts.

Let's unpack your post...

if you have to rely on spiritual attunement for mana ...

Alright, this is a conditional. It conditions whatever is to follow on relying on something called Spiritual Attunement. This spiritual attunement apparently grants mana.

as a ret using SoB,

In other words, as a ret. Moving on.

then you are just a bad player.

Alright. Figured it out. If you have to rely on spiritual attunement for mana as ret, you are a bad player. Got it. This is an assertion, naked and pure, backed by no evidence. I can play the same game... here I go:

If you haven't run out of mana on a fight where you're not getting heals, even with Spiritual Attunement on live, you're a bad player.

See how easy assertions are?

[Suicidal Zebra]

Or, he's implying that mana regen from SoB is independent of Spiritual Attunement. Either way, loltastic.

[Svenskpally]

just did live testing for my number on live server whit SoM and SoR.

meele swings for about 1100+ SoR 350 dmg Judgments for 1600 dmg

meele swing for 1100+ SoM 600 dmg and crits for 1000 atleast Judgments for 2600 dmg

I have to say i am not to good on maths but from this i don't think we will end up on the same dmg output even whit new glyph and specc in to the holy talent.

I got those number selfbuffed whit imp might about 3900 ap.

I think i still will use SoM after 3.1

[Evereghalo]

In the beta JotW was at 33% and there was no need for SA at all and too be honest 33% was more then enough.

are you talking about when it was max mana or base mana?

because it makes sense for max,

[Maneken]

I think SOR will never replaced Seal of blood, tested yesterday on PTR even if we put SOR glyph cant see how would be possible to replace. Most problem comes from SOR CANT crit.

[Merander]

The thing i would find weird is that SoC is the Retri seal... you have to spec into retri to get it, yet the changes at the moment would appear to favour a standard seal that all spec's can use. SoR/SoB/SoM all classes can use them.

I would think that if they do anything then they should buff the seal that is in the retri tree.. or is that too simplistic?

That would be a Great idea i loved SoC back then in BC but they need to Put it in a Higher Tier to make it Ret only i guess

[Necrox]

Or make SoC baseline and SoB/M the ret seal from spec. It's the one that makes the most sense fro ret now anyway - both in use and flavor. SoC as a ret only thin is an ooold vanilla remnant they need to reconsider.

If they do that and perhaps moved it deeper in by a tier or two, then they could easily add Spiritual Attunement into the SoB/M spell itself. It would make it the ret spell of choice from a talent design POV and would remove the mana regen issue from Holy as it would likely still be better for holies to use SoW/SoL than taking damage every time they judge and loosing the abilities of those seals get from Glyphs.

[Varaben]

sor does basically the same thing like sob/som. but there are 2 lil differences(except for the damage)
-sob-proccs get to crit sor dont
-sob has some considerable recoil

so if you remove the recoildamage they are nearly the same seal if you ignore the fact of the critting proccs heh. atm i guess sor does about 25-30% less dps than sob/som, so with the new glyph and the talent it might be up for it. but what about the procc-crits? on normal fights i see it procc for way over 2000 sometimes, someone has to do the maths!
well anyway, before the final patchnotes its useless whatsoever, they will change something, we have just to wait and see!

judgement of righteousness is WAY less dmg than martyr also.

[Necrox]

Where is it said that SA is being removed? I seen it on the PTR when i was on so..?

Spiritual Attunement: Removed from trainers. It is now available deep in the Protection tree for 2 ranks at 5/10%.
Source: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/patch...atchnotes.html

PS: I'm on PTR too and it has indeed not been removed yet. I expect it will be in an upcoming patch in the next few days.

[Merander]

I realy wished SoC would be the Ret Raid seal it would make sense since The Librams that you can buy with Badges affect SoC. Also it is not that Emo Like we have enough Emo like spells Like Divine Sacrifice and Divine Intervention and stuff

[Necrox]

I don't see this happening to be fair, They will get alot of feedback about ret going oom when using SoM/SoB.

They have added it to the official notes so they intend to test it. That's all the information we have to go by at the moment, so that is what we are discussing.
As you can see most people expect it to be crippling as well, and if we are right Blizzard are likely to either withdraw the change or tweak mana regen in another way to balance it out.
Personally I believe the change will stay as they are not happy with the regen it applies, specifically to Holy paladins - it was originally intended mainly as a means of keeping tanks from falling into a manaless pit, rendering them useless. I find it likely they will in fact keep this change but buff Ret mana regen in other ways if needed.
We'll see whether it is needed or not when this patch hits the PTR.

[Samiel]

As long as SoR cannot crit, SoB/M will be better, end of discussion.

30% more damage on SoR will NOT make up for the massive amounts that SoB/M crits for, or the simple fact that SoB/M hits for more on judgements by a good amount.

[davep]

I love the smell paladin-tears in the morning. Paladins have received a lot of buffs and just the SA removal will not be the end of the world. You got 15% more damage on CS and EX and 3% more overall crit. However you just ignore that part and QQ about a minor thing that affects mana regen, use Divine Plea on every CD and you'll be fine.

obviously you don't play a paladin or you would know that Divine Plea is on a 1min cooldown and using it every minute wouldn't help us regen our mana at all unless we sit there and don't do anything while regening which is stupid in itself.

[davep]

if you have to rely on spiritual attunement for mana as a ret using SoB, then you are just a bad player.

what do you rely on? you are obviously not a paladin, we have 0 mp5 and Divine Plea used on all cooldown will not save us at all since we'd have to stop dps to gain our mana

[Alensia]

I have never used SotM because of SA, but because it is best PvE damage seal.

[Dualkalibur]

*Disclaimer: I play a Holy paladin, not a ret*

I'm not going to try and tell all rets how to play, but if I may suggest something for you to try, when you are about to go oom, switch to Seal of Wisdom(I'll assume the boss/mob already has judegement of wisdom applied, if not, go ahead and throw that on there too), and Hit Divine plea. Now thanks to the way the class is built, you have a slower weapon and only swing 3.4 seconds or so, giving 4% of your mana back per swing(if it procs but its proc rate is very high). So lets assume it goes off, and in the 15 minutes of Divine Plea, you also get 3 hits and get 12% mana back. 12+25%=37% of your mana pool back in 15 seconds. Then you switch back to your regular seal and resume dps.

This will drop your DPS, but our class isn't meant to be sustained DPS, its a burst dps class. Burst damage, wait, burst again. If we have to change to have a damage burst, damage burst, mana burst, damage burst, that may be a challenging new part to the Ret class, I'll give you that. But for raid utility, that 15 seconds you spend getting mana back to do your next burst can be a godsend to us healers and the rest of the raid. Now you have 15 seconds to analyze the raid, see who's close to the tanks for threat and throw hand of Salvation on them, and other helpful things that can be done. I understand Rets wanting to stick to DPS as the DPS tree, but paladins are just so damn useful, I can't help but NOT want one in a raid for all they can do for us. Damage is almost a second thought for having a paladin around.

Any raider leader who would kick out a paladin for not topping the meters but putting out good burst damage and huge raid utility(3% increased damage, increased crit, increased damage with imp BoM, aggro reducing HoS, emergency LoH on the tank, if a tank dies and gets battle ressed, paladin can LoH to get him topped up quick to get him back in there, etc) is an idiot in my book.

[Draco cracona]

Spiritual Attunement: Removed from trainers. It is now available deep in the Protection tree for 2 ranks at 5/10%.
Source: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/patch...atchnotes.html

PS: I'm on PTR too and it has indeed not been removed yet. I expect it will be in an upcoming patch in the next few days.

It has been removed from some PTR pallies, but not all, and that happened before the announcement. And to Blaner - they have said that they intend to up the return on JotW, so it makes sense that atm blizz are examining how much they need to buff JotW by.