Prot Stats Priority

[Telant]

To get this away from a flame-fest.

There are loads of places to look for advice

http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintankadin/
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/
http://www.elitistjerks.com
and here ofc if you want to fight with people about your opinions

Tankspot was initially just a warrior site but it has an awesome thread for BiS pieces for Protadins from 10 and 25 man instances. This breaks it down into EH/Avoidance and Block/Threat sets

http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f97/4...ar-glance.html
for those that are too lazy to search

[Invisusira]

Thanks for the links, Telant!

[Layonhands]

Take a good look at your class, Layonhands, before you start telling other people that they're the ones who are outdated and should reroll.

stop telling me about maintankadin, just look Worldie's video tanking illidan spamming holy shield whatever is offcd, like watched it 2 yrs ago. Thats how they teach ppl.

if ppl wants to gear their pally tank, going for pure avoidance, then "omg i got shotted by Maex in naxx". You cant avoid nothing when you are stunned, only the health pool can help you, so many more examples, before you thinking stacking pure avoidance.

you still doesnt understand what do i mean, instead going for "i blaming you for rerolling", you shouldnt go for extremly for 1type stat, depends on so much situations, more health pool just gives healers more time to heal you up, this is a role used for most 90% of guilds.

If you keep the theory that avoidance > stm, and aiming for , what i can see is more stm focused tanks than avoidance tanks, and they are mostly succesful

Remember illidan flames and muru adds, when you are in resistance gear, mostly you want more health pool for them, since healers are aways keep casting continues heals on you. Do you like being "Spiky" on healers unitframes or being more stable (constantly few % health losing up-down-up-down) ?

[Telant]

I would have to say that i prefer being alive to dead.

That's why i still think you have to have more than just one set of gear.
Saying that stacking Stam>Avoidance or avoidance>stam is not the way to look at it. In an ideal world we should look at a boss and think hmm.. what do i really need to be wearing here that will benefit the raid? Current content means that essentially anything will do (within reason ofc)

If you are able to get 102.4% avoidance then you are not likely to be running about with just 20k hp. Would having 33k hp and only 95% avoidance be better than 28k hp and 102.4% avoidance? It depends on the fight, depends on your healers and on your dps... would you be able to do it with the either set of gear, you bet your ass.

You are right about the fire res set for illidan, same as the set that druids currently use for 3d..what about the Shadow Res set that people always had crafted for Mother sharaz early on.
These were requirements for specific fights, i actually enjoyed those fights more because there was work that had to be done to be prepared for them.. farming hearts meant that you had to work towards a boss.

[Quest]

Layonhands, are you just trolling? Who tells people 102.4 isnt good for a paladin tank?

What a bunch of rubbish. Even if I gemed and enchanted for pure avoidance/block in my i200 gear id still be over 26k health in a 10man. You and a few other want to pretend that itemization is anything you dream it to be. We are ALL working with what is in the actually game, and stamina is all over def and avoidance gear alike.

[angelesis]

Lol the reply's on 102.4% is laughable, seems that none of you "tankadins" dont understand the damage scaling in new content. Or have steped into the ptr for the new bosses. Go ahead stack BV/BR and Ill laugh my way as you guys get 1 shoted by hodir as he hits you for 45k magical damage on a melee attack that can be dodged.

Or maybe you dont realize that 90%+ of the fights in uldur have huge spike magical damage? BV was great in TBC because at high enough levels not only could you avoid crushing blows which was critical "pun intended" but bosses were also heavy melee centered.

[Tyneside]

You just stick a frost tank in front of Hodir for 15 seconds, then taunt back to your normal tank. His normal melee attacks aren't anything terrible and that 45k frost attack is a proc from his swing, meaning higher raw avoidance like dodge and parry are better than stam stacking, since you won't EVER get to the point where you can take 2 of those shots. If you dodge the melee attack you won't be hit by the proc. Taking off 2k from every melee attack and maintaining over 41k HP raid buffed seems like a pretty safe place to be in Naxx gear.

Unless you've got a tank in your pocket rocking over 90k HP your argument for effective health based upon Hodir is idiotic.

[Draco cracona]

Edit: Think about Sarth+3D, if your raid leader sign you to tank fire elementals, block values helps nothing there. Only stm + fire resistance + dodge/parry can help you out.

For what it's worth, as nobody else has pointed this out, BV sets help a lot on these fire elementals, as elemental melee attacks can be clocked since 3.0.

[Iselian]

All in moderation. Make sure you have a good amount of dodge and parry, which should come on your gear as it increases (~20-25% dodge, 15-20% parry). Block will come on its own as well, and you should hit 102.4% without much trouble.

Stamina is a good thing to gem for, though you might find you need a +8def/+12stam to keep above 540, depending on your gear setup. At the high end of gear (in the current tier) you'll see 30k hp areas unbuffed. Mine is sitting around 28.5k, with a couple upgrades ahead of me. If you're at 25k, don't fret; you probably have a lot of 213 gear ahead of you.

If you're in the heroic raiding and you still don't see the great 30k, 33k health pools that others boast, that's fine. The content doesn't have strict requirements yet. Mostly, take what seems like an upgrade and you'll be fine.


Still looking for strict priorities? Uncrittable => Stam and Avoidance. That's just about it.

[Offhand]

While I may be posting in a giant flame-fest. It's worth noting that you're all wrong, there is no stat to stack or priority in general. The only priorities exist for specific encounters.

[Quest]

While I may be posting in a giant flame-fest. It's worth noting that you're all wrong, there is no stat to stack or priority in general. The only priorities exist for specific encounters.

This only makes you look like you don't know what youre talking about. There is an obvious and defined priority in what stats to stack for every class of every build.

The only 'spacific encounter' people would need to worry about would be magic or melee based decisions.

Pure avoidance priority upto blockcap;
all > parry

When block-capped around 50% pure avoidance and the rest block then block value is great with stamina stacking. Block enhances the value of each blockvalue witch enhances each point of health you have.

This is how the class works as a tank.

[Evereghalo]

I'm not here to start a flame war. I'm here to help the uninformed. Take your childish, laughably incorrect troll posts elsewhere.

Again, to the stubborn naysayers: quit repeating yourself and open your mind to the fact that there may be other options. Do some research on your own, don't just mindlessly copypaste what the other guy said.

http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintankadin/

Do you need 102.4% to start raiding? Of course not. Should it be your aim as you gear up in Naxx? Absolutely.

Go. Read. Learn.

Funny your not here to start a flame war, but your the first to start the name calling?

But this is the issue,

were talking about gear ups.

And the best start during gear ups for heroics and Naxx ten is stamina. Thats why everyone would equip gosmer over anything else.

Also your 102.4% can be reached with a heafty amount of dodge and parry being included.

SO THE REAL POINT IS, in gearing up stam is where it is at when going from blues to epics. ALSO when you are going from blues to epics YOU TAKE WHAT EVERY YOU CAN GET.

So 102.4% is NOT a concern until you have enough pieces of gear to mix and match to reach it.

Also you are failing to acknowledge even the most basic point. That if you are faced with 102.4% requiring a major stam loss (anything more than 50stam) then REASONABLE you use your BRAIN to gauge how important the loss is.

I will gladly trade take 1000 health for being at only 100% Mitigation. (this was not clear when I re-read it)

And

I will gladly sacrafice 300-400 health for that 102.4%

- IN conclusion:

You are failing to acknowledge that there is a grey area of un even ground.

What you are trying to say (I think) is this:

Def> Stam/Block Cap > Everything else.


Lastly in the age where Warriors, Death Knights, and Druids can have assloads of stam. Stam is needed.


Also you need to face the fact stam has the extra value because it contributes to spell power.


All im saying is that you can not say 102.4% period is > losing hundreds even thousands of health.

[Bluerelic]

You people don't seem to understand.  This forum is really starting to concern me.

At no point did I say that you should drop thousands of health to pick up 102.4%.  At no point did i say "the instant you hit L80, you need to start working on 102.4%."  At no point did I say, "stam is crap."

When a person asks for stat priority, they are asking for just that.  A priority for stats.  Not a set-in-stone this-is-the-only-way-you-can-do-it list of what is important in stats.  Yes, of course this sort of thing is situational.

What I did say - and what a lot of people seem to be taking downright offense to because they've got stuck in their heads that 102.4 is only for crushing blows - is that 102.4% is still important and is still what you should be shooting for once you start raiding.

You guys keep bringing up the stam issue like it's some huge thing.  It's not.  You're not going to be dropping thousands of health to retain 102.4.  Will you drop some by gemming intelligently instead of dumping stam in every socket?*  Yes.  Will you lose thousands?  No.  In fact, I still have more stam than any other tank in my guild.  (Again, in their everyday gear in their everyday spec.  Situational stuff - like tanking Sarth in 3d - is a different set of gear.  And guess what - everyone should have different gear for different situations!)

I will gladly trade 1000 health for being at 100% Mitigation.
100 stam is right around the break point.  For example, is it worth swapping out the Essence of Gossamer for an epic tank trinket that puts you over block cap?  IMO, yes.

For a while, I had less health than my warrior OT because I didn't use stam trinkets but he did.  Guess what? I was still WAY easier to heal.

*BTW people bitching about the sockets in T8 make me want to cry.  The bonuses are ALL STAM, people.  You're not losing much at all by gemming properly.

In one breath you say 102.4 is the be all and end all, and in the next you say you never claimed stamina wasn't important, frankly I believe you're right about 102.4 to a point, but you're being bull headed and implying this is the only way things should be done.

102.4 is very important to reach as a prot pally, but the misconception that this must be done using block rating is wrong, the BEST way to reach 102.4 is to stack the living hell out of dodge(and parry, since even though it sucks compared to dodge, its all over current gear in larger quantities, and it is still avoidance), because this supplies you with tons of avoidance, and still increases your EH by pushing your combined avoidance to 102.4, but more heavily relying on pure avoidance than worthless blocks to fill the void.

A starting paladin can not hope to reach that level of avoidance, but the point needed to be made that pure avoidance>block if you can use that pure avoidance to push you to 102.4, currently in my gear after Diminishing returns, I'm at 95.25% unbuffed, closer to 100% fully raid buffed, and i have 33k hp. Are you gonna tell me I shouldn't have filled all my gem slots with stam? Stam adds to your EH too, and the higher your pure avoidance the lower your block effects your EH. Of course its a huge bonus to your EH when you only have 40% avoidance and you're getting hit constantly, but when you have higher avoidance its effectiveness is diminished and is no longer as important as Stam is, since Stam applies to every single fight in the game, not just melee oriented ones. And since only the easy fights are an all melee battle, patchwerk, gluth, loatheb, meanwhile all the hard encounters have big spell damage blasts, the majority of ulduar, maly, 3d sarth, KT. Counting BV as effective health is only important for AoE pulls, which as we all know is serious business, and pure melee fights where you know you're gonna get hit with melee repeatedly. Any fight right now thats even remotely difficult has some spell damage that is a huge impact on the fight, and the trend will continue through Ulduar.

If you are stacking some block to get to 102.4 because you're under geared and cant push to block cap with out block rating, thats fine, this is how we all started out, but if you're in full naxx gear and you think BV is where its at for tanking bosses, i hope to god you reconsider, since with only 13% block I am at ~100% and the only reason i dont push for that last 2.4% is because i have a moonkin who loves me enough to not glyph his insect swarm, if you are in full epics and are wearing more than 20% block on purpose, YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.

[Evereghalo]

Actually,

he/she said that is a priotiry over stam.

but did fail to specify how much.

So its meerly a state of misunderstanding.

Also the holy than thou art attitude doesnt help.

[Liquid_Beaver]

I sit at 32,500+ unbuffed hp, which comes out to a little over 43,000 hp raid buffed. Previously I had tried to reach the block cap, and was sitting in a set of gear fully gemmed for avoidance. I had a pretty decent 28k hp. My threat was ridiculous, it still is, but it was even more so.

Since then I have tried the switch to pure stam gemming and enchanting, and I love it. My avoidance is still fairly high (roughly 101% raid buffed), but I have nearly 5k more hp than before, and an even higher percentage when raid buffed.

I prefer the effective health method. I like that as my armor gets higher, it makes each point of stam worth even more. The damage is consistant, and I can survive mistakes, regardless of whomever is at fault, and I am a lot more calm when tanking difficult situation.

I can walk through frogger on purpose and get hit and have 10k hp left.

Ever since I made the switch, I have found it easier to tank nearly everything. I also took to speccing into Reckoning because the only boss that could kill me with a parrygib is Patchwerk, and he doesn't have that mechanic. My threat has gone up considerably (Stam gemmed w/ Reckoning compared to without)

The other upside is your LoH crits can be ridiculous. I posted about my highest one here, at 111,560 fully buffed.

Another upside to gemming for stam and other aspects of effective health, is currently my Ardent Defender is active at 11k-16k depending on my buffs, which is a HUGE window to take 30% less damage.

I dont like avoidance tanking, I personally find meatshield tanking more fun, and I worry a lot less about cooldowns and RNG.

By no means is this the only way to do it, but don't ever let someone tell you it isnt viable.

[xstratax]

I got tired of the QQ so , I made a Paladin Gear profile on Rawr, then put it into Chardev for people to see.
It sits at 40k Raid buffed, with 100.0 Block-cap, 25 Expertise, 8.96% Hit (leaving 8.04% chance to miss with HoReck), and 24k Armor. Profs are JC and Mining. The numbers on Chardev are buggy and dont account for DR on Miss, Dodge, or Parry, so I quoted Rawr on the numbers.

http://chardev.org/?template=151856

Also I will link a build from the latest MMO-C Talent Calc so that one can ponder over my choices.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...1&version=9704

Its not about Min-Maxxing any one aspect of tanking, but balancing them out enough to get the job done with as little problems for healers or DPS. I skipped JotJ for SA, as SA is vital, and JotJ is just nice to have. I view PoJ in the Ret tree as vital, in order to compensate for not having Charge. Getting to a mob faster after AS, IMO, is an important goal since positioning can be critical.

By that setup on Rawr you can also sub in Exorcism for HotR when the CD is up for 1962.92 Damage (Avg), and 5333 Threat. Thats before the Glyph, afterwards you get 2355.5 Damage, and 6399.9 Threat, which is about 7% more Dmg than HotR, and 7% more threat.

You also get an incoming magic damage reduction of about 20%, and total Physical mitigation of 71.1% before Block.

I know that in about 5 minutes there will be a troll all over this trying to flame me, but I dont care. I set out to prove that you can hit, or nearly hit all the major Tank caps and still get a decent amount of HP, and in that regard I feel victorious.