Agility better option then Str in 3.1?

[Avermra]

ST is the way to go. With my gear gemmed with st gems my ap was 7419 and crit was 48.18% in cat. When i regemmed for agi my ap 7233 and crit was 50.19. Sorry to every one who says gemming agi is better then gemming st because ur stupid if ur willing to trade 186 ap for only 2.01 crit. ST is the only way to go if u want to max your dsp. If any one wants to see how there stats would changed if they gemmed differently u can use http://chardev.org to play around with ur gear.

Roughly 46 crit rating makes up for 1%, this converts to roughly 92 rating versus 186 AP. If you value crit to be above 1 AP, then this conversion is better. In terms of itemization value, these two are pretty much the same.

So in conclusion, you just compare 186 and 2 and decided 186 is a prettier number, with nothing to back you up. GJ on that though.

[Avermra]

Actually bleeds not being able to crit was also a major factor in Strength being better than Agility....

This is partially correct. Back in TBC, Bleeds were also not able to crit, yet agility was still better than strength due to better scaling of crit than it does now. With the introduction of Savage Roar, Strength becomes better since it receives double the benefit than agility did. However, even with that considered, agility and stregnth were very close (within 5%) of one another. It is pretty natural to see that agility is better than strength after dots are able to crit, since dots account for roughly 35-40% of our damage.

Of course, there will be the people that have internet orgasm over their big AP numbers refuse to adapt, and that will not really affect our gameplay.

[Shamb]

Actually bleeds not being able to crit was also a major factor in Strength being better than Agility....

Thanks for your awesome insight, because bleed could crit in BC right ? oh wait... no it couldn't...

So the major CHANGE that made str > agi IS savage roar, not something that existed already.

[Paskgotsheal]

what do you mean by no proof ?
why don't you go to the ptr and test them by yourself guys instead of flaming ? bring some agility and some str gems and do some tests.
there's no point starting a conversation based on a spreadsheet when ptr is there waiting.

I have. Maybe if you took the time to read other topics you would realize this.

here's the topic

http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=44125

here's the screen shot of what happened when i regemmed Agility.

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/564...1709082152.jpg



Now lets see you hot shot. I regemmed all agi and notice the damage i put out. SELF BUFFED with only trauma on the boss dummy. Before i regemmed i was around 4.7-4.9k.

Use some common sense. Only reason strength was better because AP scaled with savage roar. It DOES NOT anymore. It's a 30 % base increase (+6% Glyphed). Not only that but bleeds can crit which shows how much more valuable agility is compared to strength. Like i said even ARMOR PEN is better then strength come 3.1.

currently on live if u dont count swipe witch is ofc majorly on top the highest single target attac on boss fights is white dmg.

i do remember this was different on PTR.

No just no. If melee is your top attack you're doing it wrong plain and simple. Go look at some of the old WWS's i posted. over 5.9k on patch melee is barely my 2nd most damaging attack behind shred and rip following close behind.

Please please please stop posting useless drivel that's making you look like a retard.

ST is the way to go. With my gear gemmed with st gems my ap was 7419 and crit was 48.18% in cat. When i regemmed for agi my ap 7233 and crit was 50.19. Sorry to every one who says gemming agi is better then gemming st because ur stupid if ur willing to trade 186 ap for only 2.01 crit. ST is the only way to go if u want to max your dsp. If any one wants to see how there stats would changed if they gemmed differently u can use http://chardev.org to play around with ur gear.

Another idiot...seriously...if you're talking about live then ok you're right but this is about the PTR. strength is NO WHERE NEAR agility on the PTR.

[enigmaran]

here's what has happened to boil down all the arguing.

Because of savage roar scaling and the crit nerfs - strength became better than agi in wrath.

However with the changes to SR in 3.1 and the ability for our dots to crit with primal gore - agi is at mimimum on par with str in 3.1 and will often if not always be preferred because it gives atp and crit instead of just atp. Crit will now be more highly valued because of the dot crits, etc.

[baseball]

here's what has happened to boil down all the arguing.

Don't confuse "arguing" with "informed people reading what amounts to the bleating of retarded goats." =)

[mandrus]

YES

[Elunedra]

No just no. If melee is your top attack you're doing it wrong plain and simple. Go look at some of the old WWS's i posted. over 5.9k on patch melee is barely my 2nd most damaging attack behind shred and rip following close behind.

Dude i do 4K dps on patchwerk on life in full dps spec whit agi gems and melee is defently my highest dmg becase i am always out of energy to shred and by the time i got energy its time ot refres mangle , rake , savage roar , rip

the only time when i get shred as my highest dmg is when there an arms warrior in my group when i can completely skip mangle.

BTW: someonep soted a while ago i doesnt matter if SR increases AP by 40% or pure outgoing dmg by 36% since your mangle will still hit for rougly the same so why did str get any weaker ?

[Paskgotsheal]

Dude i do 4K dps on patchwerk on life in full dps spec whit agi gems and melee is defently my highest dmg becase i am always out of energy to shred and by the time i got energy its time ot refres mangle , rake , savage roar , rip

the only time when i get shred as my highest dmg is when there an arms warrior in my group when i can completely skip mangle.

BTW: someonep soted a while ago i doesnt matter if SR increases AP by 40% or pure outgoing dmg by 36% since your mangle will still hit for rougly the same so why did str get any weaker ?

Do you speak english or are you just slow?

K i'll try to explain this for all the slow kiddies out there.

SR got changed from 40% ATTACK POWER (remember that ATTACK POWER) To 30% increase in damage done. This in itself make agility a better thing to socket then strength. Strength was good before because we could get SR to increase our total AP (Which obviously gets buffed more by strength then agility; 2.2 to 1.1 ratio, up to 3.6 with kings and SR) Now with the SR change strength will not be as effective as our Attack Power will NOT; repeat NOT change with savage roar. Just increases the amount of damage done by 30%(36% glyphed).


Get it?

[Koumaru]

Get it?

I certainly hope not. It's not true. The change to Savage Roar is a wash; it makes no difference in the relative power of STR and AGI. The reason AGI has pulled back into the lead is Primal Gore and Primal Gore alone.

[Elunedra]

SR got changed from 40% ATTACK POWER (remember that ATTACK POWER) To 30% increase in damage done. This in itself make agility a better thing to socket then strength. Strength was good before because we could get SR to increase our total AP (Which obviously gets buffed more by strength then agility; 2.2 to 1.1 ratio, up to 3.6 with kings and SR) Now with the SR change strength will not be as effective as our Attack Power will NOT; repeat NOT change with savage roar. Just increases the amount of damage done by 30%(36% glyphed).

Get it?

not realy

if for exanple 140 gives 140 / 14 = 10 dps
whit SR it gives (140 * 1.40) / 14 = 14 dps
whit new SR (140 / 14) * 1.36 = 13.6 dps

kinda like what some other guy said your mangle or shred will do rougly the same dmg and that dmg is based off AP so even whit lower AP but higher output. it doesnt matter no it does not matter where the multiplication is done. if its in the beginning at AP lvl or at the end u still get more dmg out of your AP since our abilities scale on AP.

never the less i do agree agi will be better but str did not loose its power

I certainly hope not. It's not true. The change to Savage Roar is a wash; it makes no difference in the relative power of STR and AGI. The reason AGI has pulled back into the lead is Primal Gore and Primal Gore alone.

thank u

[Paskgotsheal]

I certainly hope not. It's not true. The change to Savage Roar is a wash; it makes no difference in the relative power of STR and AGI. The reason AGI has pulled back into the lead is Primal Gore and Primal Gore alone.

Right. thousands of other's would like to disagree with you. Primal Gore is obviously a big component of the switch back to agility, yes, but the change to savage roar is a huge difference and if you fail to see how our AP used to scale then idk what to tell you. At least you dont think strength is the best stat...loll

[Paskgotsheal]

not realy

if for exanple 140 gives 140 / 14 = 10 dps
whit SR it gives (140 * 1.40) / 14 = 14 dps
whit new SR (140 / 14) * 1.36 = 13.6 dps

kinda like what some other guy said your mangle or shred will do rougly the same dmg and that dmg is based off AP so even whit lower AP but higher output. it doesnt matter no it does not matter where the multiplication is done. if its in the beginning at AP lvl or at the end u still get more dmg out of your AP since our abilities scale on AP.

never the less i do agree agi will be better but str did not loose its power
thank u

Obviously the biggest change was primal gore im not argueing that. I am argueing the fact that the new SR also allocates into changing from Strength to Agility. There's alot agi can do for us and thats why it was the pref stat pre wotlk.

[Elunedra]

Obviously the biggest change was primal gore im not argueing that. I am argueing the fact that the new SR also allocates into changing from Strength to Agility. There's alot agi can do for us and thats why it was the pref stat pre wotlk.

yes i agree agi is the way to go.

[Avermra]

I certainly hope not. It's not true. The change to Savage Roar is a wash; it makes no difference in the relative power of STR and AGI. The reason AGI has pulled back into the lead is Primal Gore and Primal Gore alone.

1 Strength = 2 Attack power (ignoring other modifier), 2x 0.4= 0.8 gained
1 agility= 1 attack power, 1x0.4= 0.4 gained
----

New:

1 strength= 1.3 (2 attack power)
1 agility= 1.3 x (1 attack power) x crit modifier

You can't solve 2 variables with 1 equation (edit: two variables here being crit and agi. your crit value must be given to get the contribution from agility; their relative number will differ as you get different kind of gear level.

[Koumaru]

Yeah, I got it wrong on the Savage Roar issue. It's not just a change in AP scaling, but also base damage of yellow attacks.

The change from 40% AP scaling to 30% overall damage is a nerf to AP scaling, which shifts more weight to the crit from agility when comparing with strength. The AP multiplier on both stats drops, but the crit chance component of the agility is unaffected by the change.

On the other hand, that 30% damage boost now applies to the static damage component of attacks, recouping the damage lost from the AP scaling nerf (until very high AP levels) and increasing the base damage of each attack, shifting yet more weight toward crit (agility) rather than pure AP (strength).

It's not nearly as huge of a balance change as Primal Gore, but it's there.

[Elunedra]

On the other hand, that 30% damage boost now applies to the static damage component of attacks, recouping the damage lost from the AP scaling nerf (until very high AP levels) and increasing the base damage of each attack, shifting yet more weight toward crit (agility) rather than pure AP (strength).

the truth is on live u increased your attack power by 40% todo lets say a 10K shred crit
now u dont boost your attack power but u still get those 10K shred crit while the attack didnt chance and the attack is AP based + a small base

so....
this means instead on increasing your amount of AP whit SW u increase the amount of dmg u can get out of that same AP
so...

overall STR only lose like 4% of value

but yes becase bleeds can not crit agi gained a lot more value

[Paskgotsheal]

the truth is on live u increased your attack power by 40% todo lets say a 10K shred crit
now u dont boost your attack power but u still get those 10K shred crit while the attack didnt chance and the attack is AP based + a small base

so....
this means instead on increasing your amount of AP whit SW u increase the amount of dmg u can get out of that same AP
so...

overall STR only lose like 4% of value

but yes becase bleeds can not crit agi gained a lot more value

I wish you'd stop trying to type because you seriously have no idea what you're talking about.

[lostdruid]

tossk's showing almost identical results between agi and str.
i entered some normal values 8000ap and 52crit vs 8200ap and 50crit. that's for gemming only.
The calc shows a slightly larger increase in dps when more ap is added instead of crit.
unfortunatelly i dont have anymore agi gems for swapping in the ptr to redo real tests.
the sad in this case of the calc is that it shows slightly better a bc enchant vs berserking.

[Alski]

tossk's showing almost identical results between agi and str.
i entered some normal values 8000ap and 52crit vs 8200ap and 50crit. that's for gemming only.
The calc shows a slightly larger increase in dps when more ap is added instead of crit.
unfortunatelly i dont have anymore agi gems for swapping in the ptr to redo real tests.
the sad in this case of the calc is that it shows slightly better a bc enchant vs berserking.

Mr base druid has 8000 AP and 50% crit. He has a choice between 100 agi and 100 str
Modifiers SoTF, MoTW & HoTW

Agi druid
100 x 1.06 x 1.02 = 108.12 agi
= 1.3% crit
= 119 AP


Str druid
100 x 1.06 x 1.02 = 108.12 Str
= 238 AP

so agi druid now has 8119 AP and 51.3% crit
& str druid now has 8237 AP and 50% crit

Now sing toskks calulator and the above values. Agi druid has 4573 dps self buffed,str druid has 4566 dps self buffed and Base druid has 4489 dps. agi > str. we can clearly see with this small gear change if you want it as a % value then agi is 9% better than str now.

you cant just pull 2 arbitrary numbers out of thin air and say 1 = the other.